Messier taking a dead player's retired number in Vancouver - what's the story?

WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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I see this brought up a lot on these boards, but I can't find reliable media accounts of this. Was this a "real thing" that happened, or did he just take his usual number (He was Number 11 in Edmonton and New York, and then wore 11 in Vancouver) and it somehow got twisted into something it wasn't? Does anyone have a decent snap shot of the full story there?
 
my understanding is messier had no idea the number was taken out of circulation but one of the clauses in his contract was that he gets to keep his number

what's unclear is whether the team knew and looked the other way or if it was just an oversight

the story that usually is told is that it wasn't pat quinn who signed messier, it was a guy named john chapple, who was installed as CEO of the canucks and grizzlies by new owner john mccaw and formerly was an executive for mccaw's telecom corporation, so there's a very good chance that this all went down without crossing the radar of anyone with the institutional knowledge to even make the parties aware that #11 was out of circulation for wayne maki
 
Wayne Maki's #11 was not officially retired by the Canucks, but had been taken out of circulation.

News article: A MARK OF CONTROVERSY MAKI'S WIDOW, SON PEEVED OVER NO. 11
Thanks. Read the article. It looks like:

A guy (Wayne Maki) died in the 70s, for some reason Vancouver didn't retire it but the owner promised his widow nobody would wear it again. 20-some years later, Messier signs with the Canucks, is given number 11 by the Canucks who didn't talk to Maki's widow prior to doing so, and the widow was upset.

Considering the dude died when Messier was still a kid, he probably didn't know who the guy was or that his number was "retired" (without being retired), is he really the bad guy here?
 
my understanding is messier had no idea the number was taken out of circulation but one of the clauses in his contract was that he gets to keep his number

what's unclear is whether the team knew and looked the other way or if it was just an oversight

the story that usually is told is that it wasn't pat quinn who signed messier, it was a guy named john chapple, who was installed as CEO of the canucks and grizzlies by new owner john mccaw and formerly was an executive for mccaw's telecom corporation, so there's a very good chance that this all went down without crossing the radar of anyone with the institutional knowledge to even make the parties aware that #11 was out of circulation for wayne maki

Maki played 180 games for the Canucks in the early 70s. He was a pretty good player for them in the franchises infancy and was popular with the fans. His death from brain cancer rocked the young franchise. However by 1997 I think all links to that era had probably been severed. The number was not retired anyway so technically nobody did anything wrong. It's strange though that this never came up at any point until Messier got the number, but it is possible nobody in the org really knew
 
It was a nothing story, and Messier didn’t do anything wrong. It was blown up by opponents of signing Messier in the first place. Especially amongst the Trevor Linden fluffers club. They then proceeded to whine incessantly about Mess, and still do today, that a 40 something legend couldn’t drag them to a Cup. Embarrassing.
 
Something I just realized

In that leaked 1997 hand written contract Messier signed, one of his demands is simply stated as

9. #11

messier-canucks-contract-2.png


But why? I mean surely the Messier camp looked at the Canucks roster many a time while figuring out where they wanted to sign. I'm sure they noticed no Canuck wore #11 during the 96/97 season.

So why would Messier need to make an easily available number a demand in his contract?

They probably knew about the Maki stuff and this was a way to tell the Canucks to quietly get something done behind the scenes and get him 11. And when it was handled poorly they pleaded ignorance
 
Something I just realized

In that leaked 1997 hand written contract Messier signed, one of his demands is simply stated as

9. #11

messier-canucks-contract-2.png


But why? I mean surely the Messier camp looked at the Canucks roster many a time while figuring out where they wanted to sign. I'm sure they noticed no Canuck wore #11 during the 96/97 season.

So why would Messier need to make an easily available number a demand in his contract?

They probably knew about the Maki stuff and this was a way to tell the Canucks to quietly get something done behind the scenes and get him 11. And when it was handled poorly they pleaded ignorance

Contract Negotiation 101:

Assume nothing is implied and all wants should be explicitly written
 
I'm still not sure why the Canucks didn't just have it retired if they wanted to honor the guy who tragically died before his time. If it was actually retired and Messier tried to get it unretired (this is how I've always heard it mentioned) then yes, he looks worse for it. I wouldn't use contract negotiation notes as evidence of anything, as you have to make some wild leaps to get there. That was obviously his number so he wanted it, I don't know what responsibility he bears for a player that died many years prior when Messier was still a kid (it's not like the guy had died a year or two prior and this was a fresh thing). Any mishandling of the situation seems to fall on Vancouver for either not being aware or just thinking enough time had passed that it didn't matter (and again, I still don't know why if a number is supposed to be retired they didn't just retire it.. do other teams have "unofficial" retired numbers out there?)
 
I'm still not sure why the Canucks didn't just have it retired if they wanted to honor the guy who tragically died before his time. If it was actually retired and Messier tried to get it unretired (this is how I've always heard it mentioned) then yes, he looks worse for it. I wouldn't use contract negotiation notes as evidence of anything, as you have to make some wild leaps to get there. That was obviously his number so he wanted it, I don't know what responsibility he bears for a player that died many years prior when Messier was still a kid (it's not like the guy had died a year or two prior and this was a fresh thing). Any mishandling of the situation seems to fall on Vancouver for either not being aware or just thinking enough time had passed that it didn't matter (and again, I still don't know why if a number is supposed to be retired they didn't just retire it.. do other teams have "unofficial" retired numbers out there?)

That's my thinking too. If it was so important to the Canucks organization, then put the # in the rafters and be done with it. Them leaving it in the "unofficially retired" limbo made the whole mess possible.
 
You can rip Messier for wanting the #. But the Canucks deserve blame for giving in to him.

Anyways, I don't think Messier was as bad in Vancouver as others portray. They signed a near 37 year old past his prime to lead them to glory. They put too much on his shoulders.
 
I think Mess's leadership in Vancouver was probably good. The team was a train-wreck when he arrived, and was heading in the right direction when he left. Markus Naslund, Brian Burke, and others have spoken highly of his leadership when there.

The problem with massively over-paying an aging veteran is that the fanbase (which, in Van, was already programmed to dislike Messier after be beat up on them for years with his two previous teams) is going to hate on the player disproportionately if he doesn't live up to his contract. And anybody with a huge contract, aged 37-40, isn't going to live up to it.

Canucks' management really crapped the bed during that whole 1996-1999 period: Witness how they botched the attempted Gretzky-signing in 1996, how nobody supported Linden's captaincy from Messier's arrival, how they apparently hoped the fanbase would have forgotten Wayne Maki's #11, how they drove Pavel Bure out of town, etc., etc. The new management finally got its act together around 2000 with that great Luongo/Bertuzzi trade, the hiring of Mark Crawford, etc.

By the way, is Messier's book out now? My guess is that it's the usual NHL-player whitewash, but I'm curious if he writes anything about his period in Vancouver.

I do feel that, while Canucks' fans have collectively crapped on Mess for 20 years, Messier himself has never been able to tell his side of the story. Would be interesting to read.
 
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I think Mess's leadership in Vancouver was probably good. The team was a train-wreck when he arrived, and was heading in the right direction when he left. Markus Naslund, Brian Burke, and others have spoken highly of his leadership when there.

The problem with massively over-paying an aging veteran is that the fanbase (which, in Van, was already programmed to dislike Messier after be beat up on them for years with his two previous teams) is going to hate on the player disproportionately if he doesn't live up to his contract. And anybody with a huge contract, aged 37-40, isn't going to live up to it.

Canucks' management really crapped the bed during that whole 1996-1999 period: Witness how they botched the attempted Gretzky-signing in 1996, how nobody supported Linden's captaincy from Messier's arrival, how they apparently hoped the fanbase would have forgotten Wayne Maki's #11, how they drove Pavel Bure out of town, etc., etc. The new management finally got its act together around 2000 with that great Luongo/Bertuzzi trade, the hiring of Mark Crawford, etc.

By the way, is Messier's book out now? My guess it that's the usual NHL-player whitewash, but I'm curious if he writes anything about his period in Vancouver.

I do feel that, while Canucks' fans have collectively crapped on Mess for 20 years, Messier himself has never been able to tell his side of the story. Would be interesting to read.

It's interesting you bring up the Mark Messier contract angle. One of the rare examples of a player who was despised for his contract in a pre-cap world.
 
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To those asking why #11 wasn't retired already, some context:

As noted, Maki played for the Canucks from 1970 to 1972, when he retired due to brain cancer, and died in May 1974. At the time of his death only one other player had worn #11, Chris Oddleifson, who was traded to the Canucks in February 1974. After Maki died he was asked to switch numbers so they could unofficially retire it, and he did, going to #14 for the rest of his Canucks (and NHL) career, which went to 1981.

Now why didn't the Canucks outright retire it? That is something Frank Griffiths would have to explain, and seeing how he's been dead for nearly three decades I don't know if we'll get any answers; neither do I think his son and successor as owner Arthur will say anything about that.

But I do have thoughts on it. Consider the era: it was 1974, and the number of retired numbers league-wide could be counted on your hands (there was 8), and if you look at the names, a trend is noticeable: Ace Bailey, Lionel Hitchman, Howe Morenz, Dit Clapper, Eddie Shore, Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, and Gordie Howe (I suppose Larry Aurie was also technically retired at this time, too). Aside from Hitchman (and Aurie) all of them are in the Hall of Fame, and are all some of the biggest names in league history. Wayne Maki was clearly not in that category: aside from his early death, he was most notable for his stick fight with Ted Green in 1969. So it would have been unprecedented for the Canucks to retire his number in 1974, and I can see the reaction being negative.

Now this trend obviously changed, and indeed within 3 years both St. Louis (Bob Gassoff) and Philadelphia (Barry Ashbee) had retired numbers for players who died suddenly. But both the Blues and the Flyers were respectable franchises, and had at least made the Finals by that point; the Canucks had two playoff appearances by 1977, with a solitary win. That they had one of the worst stretches in league history throughout the 1980s (1982 Finals run aside), didn't help with that. So again, if they tried to retire a number I imagine it would not have looked good.

But in 1991 the Canucks did retire a number, #12, for long-time captain Stan Smyl. By this time jersey retirements had come into vogue, and while Smyl was clearly never going to make the Hall of Fame, he was a Canucks legend, and I guess after two decades with nothing to show for it, the team wanted to put something into the rafters of the old Pacific Coliseum. That doesn't excuse why they didn't decide to make Maki's number official, but I would imagine that at that point it was clear the number was off limits (much like #21 in Pittsburgh for Michel Briere, who died in 1971 but only had his number retired in 2001).

That all said, if it was well-known in team management, why did no one say anything to Messier? That's easy enough to explain away: aside from being Messier, who had his reputation behind him and a legacy with one number, the team had been sold recently: while the Griffiths family owned 100% of the team until 1995, they sold 50% that year to John McCaw, a reclusive Seattle billionaire, and the rest of the team in 1997. I can't speak for the dates of the sale, but it lines up enough to suggest new management either didn't know, or didn't care, and felt that it would be fine. Obviously that wasn't the case.

I'll conclude by noting that even after the uproar, it's interesting to see that even after Messier left in 2001, and McCaw exited in 2006, that the team has never officially retired #11 for Maki. It remains off-limits though, and seems to have been joined by #28, which has not been worn since Luc Bourdon died in 2008, and possibly by #37 for Rick Rypien (who died in 2011; though that number had only been used twice before in team history).
 
To those asking why #11 wasn't retired already, some context:

...

But I do have thoughts on it. Consider the era: it was 1974, and the number of retired numbers league-wide could be counted on your hands (there was 8), and if you look at the names, a trend is noticeable: Ace Bailey, Lionel Hitchman, Howe Morenz, Dit Clapper, Eddie Shore, Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, and Gordie Howe (I suppose Larry Aurie was also technically retired at this time, too). Aside from Hitchman (and Aurie) all of them are in the Hall of Fame, and are all some of the biggest names in league history. Wayne Maki was clearly not in that category: aside from his early death, he was most notable for his stick fight with Ted Green in 1969. So it would have been unprecedented for the Canucks to retire his number in 1974, and I can see the reaction being negative.

...

Ted Green was considered a pretty good defenseman, and was a popular player with Boston. I believe that Green took the first stick-swing, and thus bears a majority of the responsibility for the infamous stick-fight, but he did get the worst of it: he was -- of course -- never the same after his brain injury. As you say, Maki was most notable for participation in this tragic event. It makes for a sad legacy.
 
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This is from the New York Daily News, July 30, 1997 (emphases are mine):

**********************

Messier instantly became embroiled in a Canucks' faux pas on his first day in Vancouver. Contrary to earlier indications, the Canucks never received the blessings of the widow and son of the late Wayne Maki to bestow his No. 11 upon Messier. The number, though never officially retired, was taken out of circulation when Maki died of a brain tumor 23 years ago. And, at the time, then-Canucks GM Hal Laycoe promised Beverly Maki the number would be retired and only worn either by Maki's son or grandson. Stunned to see a No. 11 on the Canucks jersey that Messier donned for Monday afternoon's introductory press conference, Beverly Maki called the Vancouver Sun to express her outrage. "I was watching the 12 o'clock news (Monday afternoon) and I was really shocked when Mark Messier turned around and was wearing Wayne's number," Mrs. Maki told the Sun. She said she repeatedly telephoned the Canucks following the press conference and finally received a return call from GM Pat Quinn. "He said I should be honored and I told him I'm not honored," Mrs. Maki said. "Messier can wear No. 11 if he wants. I guess this is the way it's going to be, but I'm hurt. So is Wayne Maki Jr. I spoke to Pat Quinn after the press conference and he apologized and told me he never lost respect for my father," said Maki. "They said they had tried to get ahold of us. But, obviously, they didn't try hard enough to get our blessing, which they don't have."

**********************

Bear in mind, all of this occurred in July 1997, two months before training camp even started. Notice Mrs. Maki says nothing bad about Messier himself (who possibly didn't even know about the issue at this point in time), and only about the Canucks' organization.

(I do wonder if Beverly Maki wasn't a bit too eager for media attention, though. She saw the press conference and called the Vancouver Sun?? Wouldn't you call the Canucks' organization first?)
 
This is from the New York Daily News, July 30, 1997 (emphases are mine):

**********************

Messier instantly became embroiled in a Canucks' faux pas on his first day in Vancouver. Contrary to earlier indications, the Canucks never received the blessings of the widow and son of the late Wayne Maki to bestow his No. 11 upon Messier. The number, though never officially retired, was taken out of circulation when Maki died of a brain tumor 23 years ago. And, at the time, then-Canucks GM Hal Laycoe promised Beverly Maki the number would be retired and only worn either by Maki's son or grandson. Stunned to see a No. 11 on the Canucks jersey that Messier donned for Monday afternoon's introductory press conference, Beverly Maki called the Vancouver Sun to express her outrage. "I was watching the 12 o'clock news (Monday afternoon) and I was really shocked when Mark Messier turned around and was wearing Wayne's number," Mrs. Maki told the Sun. She said she repeatedly telephoned the Canucks following the press conference and finally received a return call from GM Pat Quinn. "He said I should be honored and I told him I'm not honored," Mrs. Maki said. "Messier can wear No. 11 if he wants. I guess this is the way it's going to be, but I'm hurt. So is Wayne Maki Jr. I spoke to Pat Quinn after the press conference and he apologized and told me he never lost respect for my father," said Maki. "They said they had tried to get ahold of us. But, obviously, they didn't try hard enough to get our blessing, which they don't have."

**********************

Bear in mind, all of this occurred in July 1997, two months before training camp even started. Notice Mrs. Maki says nothing bad about Messier himself (who possibly didn't even know about the issue at this point in time), and only about the Canucks' organization.

(I do wonder if Beverly Maki wasn't a bit too eager for media attention, though. She saw the press conference and called the Vancouver Sun?? Wouldn't you call the Canucks' organization first?)
Pat Quinn was really put in a tough spot. Messier obviously wanted 11. Quinn knew of Wayne Maki’s history with the Canucks. The Messier era with the Canucks started off with controversy and ended up with him being hated by the Canuck fans to this day
 
This is from the New York Daily News, July 30, 1997 (emphases are mine):

**********************

Messier instantly became embroiled in a Canucks' faux pas on his first day in Vancouver. Contrary to earlier indications, the Canucks never received the blessings of the widow and son of the late Wayne Maki to bestow his No. 11 upon Messier. The number, though never officially retired, was taken out of circulation when Maki died of a brain tumor 23 years ago. And, at the time, then-Canucks GM Hal Laycoe promised Beverly Maki the number would be retired and only worn either by Maki's son or grandson. Stunned to see a No. 11 on the Canucks jersey that Messier donned for Monday afternoon's introductory press conference, Beverly Maki called the Vancouver Sun to express her outrage. "I was watching the 12 o'clock news (Monday afternoon) and I was really shocked when Mark Messier turned around and was wearing Wayne's number," Mrs. Maki told the Sun. She said she repeatedly telephoned the Canucks following the press conference and finally received a return call from GM Pat Quinn. "He said I should be honored and I told him I'm not honored," Mrs. Maki said. "Messier can wear No. 11 if he wants. I guess this is the way it's going to be, but I'm hurt. So is Wayne Maki Jr. I spoke to Pat Quinn after the press conference and he apologized and told me he never lost respect for my father," said Maki. "They said they had tried to get ahold of us. But, obviously, they didn't try hard enough to get our blessing, which they don't have."

**********************

Bear in mind, all of this occurred in July 1997, two months before training camp even started. Notice Mrs. Maki says nothing bad about Messier himself (who possibly didn't even know about the issue at this point in time), and only about the Canucks' organization.

(I do wonder if Beverly Maki wasn't a bit too eager for media attention, though. She saw the press conference and called the Vancouver Sun?? Wouldn't you call the Canucks' organization first?)

The article you are quoting states very clearly that she called the Canucks numerous times following the press conference introducing Messier.
 
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The article you are quoting states very clearly that she called the Canucks numerous times following the press conference introducing Messier.
Yes, but it clearly states that she called the newspaper first, right after the press conference. I mean, maybe she's not telling a detailed or accurate account, but if it were me, I would spend a few days (at least) trying to get in touch with the organization before I ran to the media, which is obviously going to blow it up.
 

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