McDonagh trade

[Boris Zubov]

Everyone is grading the trade with hindsight so why can't we factor in we had money to land Panarin?

Don't let me stop you, but IMO it's completely irrelevant when it comes to analyzing the return of this trade.

 

[Edge]

Don't let me stop you, but IMO it's completely irrelevant when it comes to analyzing the return of this trade.

So what do you view as a fair trade for McD in 2018?

 

[Boris Zubov]

So what do you view as a fair trade for McD in 2018?

I wasn't one of the posters you singled out who had alternate theories on what the return would be then or now. My opinion has been consistent, once Miller was added to the deal, the return was not enough.

Takes in the original trade thread that Namestikov was a better player than Miller & therefore the prospects & picks we got for McDonagh was a fair return seemed like a weak argument when it happened. 2 1/2 years later it's laughable. Namestikov was never going to be more than a 3rd line plug & Miller always had top 6 potential.

You've posted earlier in the thread that guys need the right situations to fulfill their potential & that's partially true. But maybe there's also an argument to be made that we had an awful coach at the time who completely misused that player.

If you want to be condescending, simply because an opinion doesn't mesh with yours, you can find someone else's post to quote.

 

[Edge]

I wasn't one of the posters you singled out who had alternate theories on what the return would be then or now. My opinion has been consistent, once Miller was added to the deal, the return was not not enough.

Takes in the original trade thread that Namestikov was a better than Miller player than Miller & therefore the prospects & picks we got for McDonagh was a fair return seemed like a weak argument when it happened. 2 1/2 years later it's laughable. Namestikov was never going to be more than a 3rd line plug & Miller always had top 6 potential.

You've posted earlier in the thread that guys need the right situations to fulfill their potential & that's partially true. But maybe there's also an argument to be made that we had an awful coach at the time who completely misused that player.

If you want to be condescending, simply because an opinion doesn't mesh with yours, you can find someone else's post to quote.

Not at all. But I am still trying to get my head around what actually constitutes a better value, particularly at that time.

With regards to Miller and Namestnikov, the former had 13 goals and 40 points while the latter had 20 goals and 44 points at the time of the trade. Miller had a significant advantage on points the previous two campaigns though.

But even the next season, Miller didn't exactly lift off with Tampa --- posting 13 goals and 47 points in Tampa, while Namestnikov posted 11 goals and 31 points. So it's not like Miller skyrocketed in the same role as Namestnikov while in Tampa. In fact, he fell out of favor even quicker than Namestnikov.

Outside of the Rangers, Namestnikov has essentially reverted back into a 15-20 goal, 40 point player. Miller has found his niche in Vancouver, playing with a superstar. But I think if you put him in most other situations, he's still the same 20-25 goal, 50-55 point player he's been for years. Not unlike Ryan Strome, he's in a situation that benefits him.

So I think the gap here also owes a lot to Miller's present situation in Vancouver, and not the guy who was yielding decreasing results over a two year span with the Rangers and Vancouver.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Not at all. But I am still trying to get my head around what actually constitutes a better value, particularly at that time.

With regards to Miller and Namestnikov, the former had 13 goals and 40 points while the latter had 20 goals and 44 points at the time of the trade. Miller had a significant advantage on points the previous two campaigns though.

But even the next season, Miller didn't exactly lift off with Tampa --- posting 13 goals and 47 points in Tampa, while Namestnikov posted 11 goals and 31 points. So it's not like Miller skyrocketed in the same role as Namestnikov while in Tampa. In fact, he fell out of favor even quicker than Namestnikov.

Outside of the Rangers, Namestnikov has essentially reverted back into a 15-20 goal, 40 point player. Miller has found his niche in Vancouver, playing with a superstar. But I think if you put him in most other situations, he's still the same 20-25 goal, 50-55 point player he's been for years. Not unlike Ryan Strome, he's in a situation that benefits him.

So I think the gap here also owes a lot to Miller's present situation in Vancouver, and not the guy who was yielding decreasing results over a two year span with the Rangers and Vancouver.

Unfortunately I self admit that I don't follow minor leagues or juniors the way some of you guys do. Therefore I don't know enough about top prospects or farm systems to opine on what would've been a better return for McDonagh at the time.

I do know that the return wasn't just for McDonagh, it was for Miller too. And for those two established NHLers we weren't able to pry Tampa's top prospect away, nor did we receive 2 guaranteed 1st rounders. At the time that's why the trade felt like a loss.

2 1/2 years later we still don't know what we have in Howden, but it's looking like he's a 3C at best. Hajek showed flashes initially, got hurt, & seemed to regress before getting hurt again. So the jury is still out on him too. Hopefully Lundkvist saves the day here, but all we can do is wait & see.

I'll agree to disagree with you regarding Miller & Vlad. That's the part of the trade that IMO is unjustifiable. And it became worst case scenario, regardless of the circumstances. I had no problem trading McDonagh, he was a shell of himself for years before he was moved, but the entire deal felt rushed & not well thought out at the time.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Not at all. But I am still trying to get my head around what actually constitutes a better value, particularly at that time.

With regards to Miller and Namestnikov, the former had 13 goals and 40 points while the latter had 20 goals and 44 points at the time of the trade. Miller had a significant advantage on points the previous two campaigns though.

So I think the gap here also owes a lot to Miller's present situation in Vancouver, and not the guy who was yielding decreasing results over a two year span with the Rangers and Vancouver.

nice post - my issue with the Rangers is they moved Miller who was entering his prime. The Ny Giants did that for years at DT. They’ll develop a Linval Joseph and let him walk when he’s about to break out. Then the follow up by continuing to rotate the stock in hopes theY can find the player producing as well as the one they let go for little to nothing.

 

[Edge]

Unfortunately I self admit that I don't follow minor leagues or juniors the way some of you guys do. Therefore I don't know enough about top prospects or farm systems to opine on what would've been a better return for McDonagh at the time.

I do know that the return wasn't just for McDonagh, it was for Miller too. And for those two established NHLers we weren't able to pry Tampa's top prospect away, nor did we receive 2 guaranteed 1st rounders. At the time that's why the trade felt like a loss.

2 1/2 years later we still don't know what we have in Howden, but it's looking like he's a 3C at best. Hajek showed flashes initially, got hurt, & seemed to regress before getting hurt again. So the jury is still out on him too. Hopefully Lundkvist saves the day here, but all we can do is wait & see.

I'll agree to disagree with you regarding Miller & Vlad. That's the part of the trade that IMO is unjustifiable. And it became worst case scenario, regardless of the circumstances. I had no problem trading McDonagh, he was a shell of himself for years before he was moved, but the entire deal felt rushed & not well thought out at the time.

I freely admit that I don't like if the long-term success will be there for the Rangers. I honestly don't, that's a sliding scale for me. If Lundkvist is a core part of a championship defense while logging 22 minutes a night, that changes things regardless of what happens with Howden and Hajek. Do the latter two find their roles, even as support players? Are they utilized as assets to get guys who play on a championship team for us? There's just so many variables I can't possibly account for at this phase.

With regards to Miller and Namestnikov, it's not all that different from Spooner for Strome. At the time, the trade was considered pretty fair value. Post-trade, Spooner flamed out of the NHL and Strome found unbelievable chemistry with the Rangers. So a deal like that is also viewed through two different prisms. Fair deal at the time, great outcome for the Rangers.

But the Miller-Namestnikov trade gets a little more complicated because it has a lot of other factors. Ironically enough, neither guy is actually with either NY or Tampa at this point. So while it may have worked out for the players involved, those two really didn't have lasting contributions to the team that acquired them.

I will say that regardless of how anyone feels about the trades (positive, negative, neutral), the Rangers haven't rushed much of anything throughout this rebuilding process. They've fielded tons of offers for different players, and different trade combinations. Overall, I'd say they have a very good feel for what's out there --- whether it be McD, Zucc, Kreider, Hayes, etc.

Most of the deals we've seen have been with teams that have circled back multiple times --- Tampa, Carolina, Boston, and Dallas. There are other teams they've talked with extensively, but didn't see a larger deal commence --- Colorado, Edmonton, Toronto, Calgary, etc.

Over the last 24 months, the Rangers have probably fairly in-depth discussions with at least 70 percent of the league.

 

[Edge]

nice post - my issue with the Rangers is they moved Miller who was entering his prime. The Ny Giants did that for years at DT. They’ll develop a Linval Joseph and let him walk when he’s about to break out. Then the follow up by continuing to rotate the stock in hopes theY can find the player producing as well as the one they let go for little to nothing.

And that prime, looked to be a 20 goal, 50 point player with hockey sense and attitude concerns.

And that didn't stop in NY, it continued in Tampa --- who turned around and moved him a year later, and after signing him to a long-term contract.

So maybe the light-bulb went off and everything clicked for Miller. Or maybe he's playing with arguably one of the top young players in the league today/a center who is in the verge of being a perennial NHL all-star.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

 

[True Blue]

I have a serious problem with the trade of Kris King & Tie Domi for Olzyk. Definitely a big looser for the team. Just not enough value was brought back.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Unfortunately I self admit that I don't follow minor leagues or juniors the way some of you guys do. Therefore I don't know enough about top prospects or farm systems to opine on what would've been a better return for McDonagh at the time.
.

there is some info out there but most of what is available is fluff. The kids are so young, many are underdeveloped, we can only guess what their mental makeup is and can only guess if all of the above will develop from a kid into an NHL man.

 

[NYSPORTS]

And that prime, looked to be a 20 goal, 50 point player with hockey sense and attitude concerns.

And that didn't stop in NY, it continued in Tampa --- who turned around and moved him a year later, and after signing him to a long-term contract.

So maybe the light-bulb went off and everything clicked for Miller. Or maybe he's playing with arguably one of the top young players in the league today/a center who is in the verge of being a perennial NHL all-star.

Tampa did move him yet they do have a cap issue and he did return a #1 and i believe a #3 and a goalie.

I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing if Miller needs to maximize his potential by playing with better players b/c those better players are also benefiting from him. He’s a not a John LeClair but a John LeClair might not have been as awesome without a Lindros. It worked though

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I have a serious problem with the trade of Kris King & Tie Domi for Olzyk. Definitely a big looser for the team. Just not enough value was brought back.

They could have traded them for Selanne.

 

[Edge]

Tampa did move him yet they do have a cap issue and he did return a #1 and i believe a #3 and a goalie. I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing if Miller needs to maximize his potential by playing with better players b/c those better players are also benefiting from him. He’s a not a John LeClair but a John LeClair might not have been as awesome without a Lindros. It worked though

He was also demoted to their fourth line in the final weeks of the previous season, and in the dog house for the playoffs. We're missing a bit of context there beyond cap issues.

And yeah, there's nothing wrong with what Miller is doing in Vancouver. Just like there's nothing wrong with what Strome is doing here, contrary to how some people may act.

But the fact remains, he's suddenly taken his career to a new level, at age 27, after playing with an emerging elite player.

And that's not something you can fully take into account in 2018 when setting a players value. Just like we didn't pay for a 20 goal, 70 point center when we acquired Ryan Strome. Which is the whole point behind separating the value of the trade from the outcome of the trade.

 

[NYSPORTS]

They could have traded them for Selanne.

lol, yeah.

still shocked Joe Thornton wasn’t obtained for his locker room presence for a mere two top prospects a a few future #1 picks.

 

[NYSPORTS]

He was also demoted to their fourth line in the final weeks of the previous season, and in the dog house for the playoffs. We're missing a bit of context there beyond cap issues.

And yeah, there's nothing wrong with what Miller is doing in Vancouver. Just like there's nothing wrong with what Strome is doing here, contrary to how some people may act.

But the fact remains, he's suddenly taken his career to a new level, at age 27, after playing with an emerging elite player.
.

i get it but the Lightning collapsed and they all played like 4th liners in that playoffs.

Miller vs Strome. Since playing approx an 82 game schedule he reached 20 plus goals 5 out of 6 years while Strome never reached 20 goals (although he likely makes it this year).

 

[Edge]

i get it but the Lightning collapsed and they all played like 4th liners in that playoffs.

Miller vs Strome. Since playing approx an 82 game schedule he reached 20 plus goals 5 out of 6 years while Strome never reached 20 goals (although he likely makes it this year).

Okay, so on a team of people playing like fourth liners, he was the one who actually got dropped to the fourth line and wasn't trusted by his coaches. I'm not really sure that helps his case.

Yeah, Miller has more legs under him, especially for goal-scoring. But he's also not covering the center position, or being moved around lines this season so the Rangers could try out Chytil and other combinations. He was also playing for what a successful Rangers team, and not the Islanders, or Oilers of that same era. When he went to Tampa, another top team, he really didn't out-perform the guy he was traded for (Namestnikov), while playing in a similar role and system. His success has come after he was pretty much been glued to Pettersson's side. And when you watch him, he's still doing a lot of the same dumb-ass stuff. It's just hidden a lot easier in that system and with that forward group.

But the question isn't whether Miller is capable of 20 goals or 50 points, the question is whether he is a 30 goal, 80 point player without a guy who is on the verge of being one of the top 10 centers in the league for the next decade, and whether that's something you can factor into trade value in 2018, when the guy is posting 13 goals and set to follow it up with another 13 goal season in 2019.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Okay, so on a team of people playing like fourth liners, he was the one who actually got dropped to the fourth line and wasn't trusted by his coaches. I'm not really sure that helps his case.

Yeah, Miller has more legs under him, especially for goal-scoring. But he's also not covering the center position, or being moved around lines this season so the Rangers could try out Chytil and other combinations. He was also playing for what a successful Rangers team, and not the Islanders, or Oilers of that same era. When he went to Tampa, another top team, he really didn't out-perform the guy he was traded for (Namestnikov), while playing in a similar role and system. His success has come after he was pretty much been glued to Pettersson's side. And when you watch him, he's still doing a lot of the same dumb-ass stuff. It's just hidden a lot easier in that system and with that forward group.

But the question isn't whether Miller is capable of 20 goals or 50 points, the question is whether he is a 30 goal, 80 point player without a guy who is on the verge of being one of the top 10 centers in the league for the next decade, and whether that's something you can factor into trade value in 2018, when the guy is posting 13 goals and set to follow it up with another 13 goal season in 2019.

Morgan Barron is coming so he’ll make us forget about most of this history (if he signs)

 

[True Blue]

They could have traded them for Selanne.

Why not just ask for Gretzky? Could have put his name on the Cup again.

 

[usekakkorightquinn]

The most important things to look at are if the Rangers signed Miller and McDonagh they would be a lousy team because there is no freakin way they would have had cap room for Panarin. It can't be disputed. That and Lundkvist has a chance to be a star much like Fox. People just don't know it yet because they haven't seen him play. The things he's done in his league for his age are incredible.

 

[Hockey Gamer]

Sept. 13, 2018: Karlsson is traded to the Sharks along with forward Francis Perron for forward Chris Tierney, defenseman Dylan DeMelo, forward Rudolfs Balcers, the rights to unsigned draft choice forward Joshua Norris, San Jose's first-round draft pick in the 2019 or 2020 NHL Draft, a second-round pick in the 2019 NHL Draft (the better of San Jose's own or Florida's own, previously acquired), a conditional pick in the 2021 NHL Draft (San Jose's own first- or second-round pick) and a conditional pick in the 2022 NHL Draft (San Jose's own first-round pick).


I don't think there was ever a strong precedent set for this type of trade bringing back a top prospect from the other team. This type of trade, archetypically speaking, is where you have an expiring veteran that's approaching their last big payday. In addition to that, McDonagh was traded to them still injured and didn't play with them I think for two weeks after he arrived in FLA.

Look at what Erik Karlsson returned with a year left on his contract (somewhat similar to McDonagh's situation). They both were around 30 years old, they both had injury history, they both had around the same amount of time on their contract, they both had their final big payday coming, yet Karlsson was always a much better player than McDonagh.

I don't really have any resentment towards the McDonagh part of this trade because I understand the reasoning and circumstance behind it. It's the Miller part that I think Gorton can get criticized for. I think it was poor asset management in that respect. He should've gotten more for the Miller component.

 

[usekakkorightquinn]

Miller's is being ridiculously over valued here. When you have 1 g in 41 playoff games and you're basically a 40-50 point scorer who makes lots of bonehead plays, you aren't bringing much in return. Look at what Tampa got for him. Basically nothing. Say McDoangh was traded for a 1st, 2nd, Hajek and Namestnikov. Miller was traded for Howden. Miller didn't hold an NHL job down until he was 22. Howden did at 20. Even if Howden never becomes a 40-50 point guy and is a 30 point role player, the salary dump of Miller was worth it. People seem to forget that Miller was a RFA the year after the Rangers traded him and he was asking for a ton of money that he didn't deserve. People just can't accept that salary dump was an enormous part of this deal. Plus, they have a 4th round pick they haven't used yet less we need to be reminded that Shesterkin was a 4th round pick. Ryan Graves was a 4th round pick. Hunter Skinner looks promising as a 4th round pick. This deal is far from being evaluated yet.

 

[Larrybiv]

I’ve said it before - wasn’t a fan of moving Miller. Management obviously felt differently, especially after the onion ring fiasco.

Pretty sure that I'm on record in saying that I was less upset trading McDonough (and his dubious cap hit)and more losing Miller, who still had untapped potential and was starting to get it together. All Miller needed was a coach that was going to get through to him. I bet Quinn would have been that guy.

 

[Larrybiv]

We lost this one imo. Thankfully Lundqvist has massive potential but to not get a more nhl ready prospect was surprising then and surprising now. Howden and Hajek need to show something....

I agree with you, but don't take this as I'm singling you out. At the time of the McDonald trade wasn't our cupboard pretty bare? With that said, what if (and nobody really knows) what if..... we could have gotten an NHL ready player from Tampa, (opposed to two players in Hayek and Howden) that the Rangers apparently hand-picked out of their organization, so.... when trying to fill a cupboard isn't two better than one? I know I like BOGO deals.

 

[NYRKing]

I agree with you, but don't take this as I'm singling you out. At the time of the McDonald trade wasn't our cupboard pretty bare? With that said, what if (and nobody really knows) what if..... we could have gotten an NHL ready player from Tampa, (opposed to two players in Hayek and Howden) that the Rangers apparently hand-picked out of their organization, so.... when trying to fill a cupboard isn't two better than one? I know I like BOGO deals.

trading Mcd was a great idea. Imagine if we signed him to the current deal, we would be screwed. My feeling at the time of trade and now is the return is underwhelming. No doubt if/when Howden, hajek and lundqvist breakout, I will feel different. But fact remains these guys are question marks to make an impact.