McDonagh trade

[ETTER DE]

You had a guy here whose name I'm having trouble tagging mention that he had a breakdown of the deal. Two deals, rolled into one when the Rangers decided to move on from JT Miller.

Names & 2nd (Henrikson) for Miller
Howden, Hajek, & 1st (Nils Lundvist) for McDonagh

That's pretty good reasonable value. You got two 1sts and a high 2nd, but both prospects are of good pro potential, even if the upside is a middle pair defenseman and a 3rd or 4th line forward. You were getting players who were developed and can play the game. Then there's Nils Lundqvist.

To me it's good value. I don't lament the deal, because you also got cap space to sign a guy like Artemi Panarin.

McDonagh: $6.8
Miller: $5.25
on
That's more than the Breadman's hit.

Oh and you got one NHLer, one that has played games, and another potential stud. All on ELCs already.

These things aren't vacuous in my mind.

I am talking about getting back a more significant piece for the best trade object. This was a quality for quantity trade. Rangers had other pieces they were going to trade. There you could go for that type of return. Not with your best player. Even if he was traded a year later, McDonagh would still be gone before Panarin was signed. If they were afraid of not having the cap to sign Panarin, why then sign Spooner and Namestnikov to those deals? This simply does not make any sense.

 

[Flyer lurker]

It is obvious that Miller would have never amounted to much here. NY had to many distractions for him as did Tampa. His work ethic stunk. His effort half his games stunk. He was an atrocious playoff player. Going to some city where people pretty much only care about hockey was the only thing that could make him reach his potential. Howden basically has to become a 35 point, 55% guy on draws. If he can do that and become a good PK guy as well he will be a good addition to this team. This deal looks like a homerun. Lundkvist is going to be the best player in this deal down the line. People can't see it right now but he's that good. I remember reading that when his team clinched he decided that he would score some goals down the stretch. I think he had 6 in 8 or 10 games to finish the season. Seriously, who does that against men on defense as a 19 year old in a really good league? Kid broke records and he is totally disrespected by hockey ranking services because he's a Ranger which is nothing new. I remember they had Fox rated 37th overall as a prospect. Like there are 10 bettter rookies in the league than Fox this year. Laughable.

Miller in TB got lost with lesser teammates. If Stamkos was out and Miller filled in his stats were good. But put Miller on 3rd/4th lines and he was more invisible than Kevin Bacon in hollowman.
With VAN he had a star as his linemate all year and performed.

 

[ETTER DE]

So, because the return on the trade was bad, in your opinion, you’d be interested in waiting to see what came later even if the 98% most likely scenario is that it would be worse.

Strong logic right there. A+

How do you know? The following year Brandon Montour had a struggle of a season in Anaheim. He was nowhere near McDonagh in quality. Still he got a first and a prospect from Buffalo. A team that could not take advantage of "two playoff runs". They were not near a playoff spot.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Miller in TB got lost with lesser teammates. If Stamkos was out and Miller filled in his stats were good. But put Miller on 3rd/4th lines and he was more invisible than Kevin Bacon in hollowman.
With VAN he had a star as his linemate all year and performed.

Your Flyers couldn’t benefit from a Miller? There are plenty of guys who can be placed on a 1st or 2nd line with a great player and not perform as well as Miller.

 

[Flyer lurker]

Your Flyers couldn’t benefit from a Miller? There are plenty of guys who can be placed on a 1st or 2nd line with a great player and not perform as well as Miller.

Of course Flyers could benefit. There are far worse insults to throw out there than needs top 6 linemates to succeed. Miller got on 1st line, took advantage and good for him.

A bunch of Flyers fans I am sure would substitute Ghost and say same thing on defense. Playing with hagg/braun and 3rd/4th line forwards he had no shot to succeed whereas play him with legit partner he will be back.

And 2 years from now if we are reflecting how good Gourde(TB) became when he got teammates I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

But it is not a better team because of the trade. And that is what we are talking about. I am not saying that McDonagh should have been resigned. I am saying he was traded for nothing significant. And thats why they should have waited. And Karlsson and McDonagh are two different players. One a good defensive LD, the other one an elite offensive RD. They would not have compteted with each other on the the trade market. (And the biggest contributor to Rangers progress so far is Panarin. A player if I remember correctly half the forum did not want, including you.)

This is a really, really bad take.

Panarin played a huge roll but he wasn't the only one. There are so many guys who stepped up and delivered this year and we have others who wouldn't be here (Kakko, Fox, etc.) had he stayed, but like you said, not the conversation here.

And also the trade market doesnt work like that. If they were of equal ability, it's one thing where a team can single out a player by their handedness but they aren't. If you remember, the McDonagh deal went down as late as it did because the Bolts were waiting to see if they could get Karlsson instead.

You're trying to use hindsight to justify your opinion which is fine, but it isn't really fair if we're looking at the deal WHEN it was made.

It's like the Stepan trade. He and Raanta for DeAngelo (a talented yet undersized and polarizing player) and the 7OA in a weak draft was a pretty light return. Many people were upset and they had a right to be.

Now? It's a colossal win.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Of course Flyers could benefit. There are far worse insults to throw out there than needs top 6 linemates to succeed. Miller got on 1st line, took advantage and good for him.

A bunch of Flyers fans I am sure would substitute Ghost and say same thing on defense. Playing with hagg/braun and 3rd/4th line forwards he had no shot to succeed whereas play him with legit partner he will be back.

And 2 years from now if we are reflecting how good Gourde(TB) became when he got teammates I wouldn't be surprised.

good post and ty

a bit off topic, but with this stoppage, i perceive those veteran teams with shorter windows like Boston,Washington, the Lightning and their cap, the Blues and certainly Dallas are feeling anxious while the Rangers, Oilers feel the future is bright. Quietly the Avs appear primed while i sense something is still missing. A bit deep under the radar is a Flyers team and all i keep thinking is “watch out for Philly”. That is one confident bunch.

 

[Flyer lurker]

good post and ty

a bit off topic, but with this stoppage, i perceive those veteran teams with shorter windows like Boston,Washington, the Lightning and their cap, the Blues and certainly Dallas are feeling anxious while the Rangers, Oilers feel the future is bright. Quietly the Avs appear primed while i sense something is still missing. A bit deep under the radar is a Flyers team and all i keep thinking is “watch out for Philly”. That is one confident bunch.

And this is the fun long term. Yes Caps and Pens have about 2 years with their stars to make cup runs and then the clock is ticking. But for this decade the Rangers and Flyers are going to be really really good. I would expect 5 playoff series where Flyer fan likes Hart and ranger fan says no Shesterkin is better. Once the Ranger gets past the ED and get a star defensive D (and with their their prospect pool they will have their choice) man they are scary.

 

[Tawnos]

How do you know? The following year Brandon Montour had a struggle of a season in Anaheim. He was nowhere near McDonagh in quality. Still he got a first and a prospect from Buffalo. A team that could not take advantage of "two playoff runs". They were not near a playoff spot.

Montour was a 24 year old pending RFA going to a team in a youth movement. The idea from Buffalo’s perspective was to get many playoff runs out of him. Age and contract status play a pretty big role in all of this.

 

[Boris Zubov]

You had a guy here whose name I'm having trouble tagging mention that he had a breakdown of the deal. Two deals, rolled into one when the Rangers decided to move on from JT Miller.

Names & 2nd (Henrikson) for Miller
Howden, Hajek, & 1st (Nils Lundvist) for McDonagh

That's pretty good reasonable value. You got two 1sts and a high 2nd, but both prospects are of good pro potential, even if the upside is a middle pair defenseman and a 3rd or 4th line forward. You were getting players who were developed and can play the game. Then there's Nils Lundqvist.

To me it's good value. I don't lament the deal, because you also got cap space to sign a guy like Artemi Panarin.

McDonagh: $6.8
Miller: $5.25

That's more than the Breadman's hit.

Oh and you got one NHLer, one that has played games, and another potential stud. All on ELCs already.

These things aren't vacuous in my mind.

If you want to split them into 2 deals, the return for each trade would be equally underwhelming. Especially if you consider Miller also didn't need to be moved at that point & subsequently Tampa turned around & dealt him for a better return.

As soon as he included Miller, Gorton should've demanded the 2nd 1st round pick. However, even if that 2nd 1st rounder was locked down, I'm still not sure the trade feels like a win...but it's way more palatable.

For the most part I like what Gorton has done during the rebuild, but I think there's a fair argument that this move wasn't his finest moment. And as much as we would like it to happen, not every trade will be a lopsided win in our favor. In a way this debate is comparable to the Odell Beckham trade...I wasn't upset he was moved, but the return didn't move the needle enough. Even if it was addition by subtraction.

 

[Crease]

No GM wins every trade. Gorton is a good GM because he wins a lot more than he loses. But he lost this one.

 

[usekakkorightquinn]

I see people try to move the goal post here. It was a bad trade. Because Rangers were rebuilding and McDonagh was the most valuable of the older players. And he did not bring back a substantial peace. The trade was not for Henriksson or Lundkvist. It was McDonagh and Miller for a 1st, a condtional 2nd, Hajek, Howden and Namestnikov. Nothing more and nothing less. If the trade was for a 7th rounder and we drafted Henrik Lundquist, would people say it was good trade? Would you Edge say we should wait and see what Henrik Lundquist does before we valuate the trade?

You won't think it was a bad trade when you see Lundkvist play. Your closed minded thinking disregarding who they picked with those draft picks makes me happy you don't run our team. Also, McDonagh has a terrible contract and he's declined a lot now. A great point somebody made here. If they signed McDonagh to that terrible contract, they don't get Panarin. Especially if they had to sign that dog Miller as well. Problem with this board is most here have no clue what they have with Lundkvist yet. As soon as they see him play, they will be praising Gorton in this deal.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

will Lundkvist at his prime be better than McDonagh at his prime?

 

[Anthony5967]

will Lundkvist at his prime be better than McDonagh at his prime?

Offensively, probably. Defensively? McDonagh was pretty solid, but I always caught flack when I would tell people Mac was a solid number 2 D-man. If people saw him as elite/1D, I don't know what to tell them.

 

[egelband]

If you want to split them into 2 deals, the return for each trade would be equally underwhelming. Especially if you consider Miller also didn't need to be moved at that point & subsequently Tampa turned around & dealt him for a better return.

As soon as he included Miller, Gorton should've demanded the 2nd 1st round pick. However, even if that 2nd 1st rounder was locked down, I'm still not sure the trade feels like a win...but it's way more palatable.

For the most part I like what Gorton has done during the rebuild, but I think there's a fair argument that this move wasn't his finest moment. And as much as we would like it to happen, not every trade will be a lopsided win in our favor. In a way this debate is comparable to the Odell Beckham trade...I wasn't upset he was moved, but the return didn't move the needle enough. Even if it was addition by subtraction.

This does sound reasonable but I always come back to the fact that - while we have excellent and well-informed gauges - we really don’t know for sure the real value of a particular draft pick, how much the contract weighs, the intangibles that go into these negotiations. So in general I avoid making definitive judgments on value. I agree what the Rangers got back is a bit underwhelming - though I like it overall - I won’t say Gorton did a bad or good job. I think the value is fairly standardized. The more important parts of a deal are timing and interest on each side.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

We still don't know what Lundkvist will be at the NHL level. Is he Erik Karlson (unlikely), Scott Niedermayer (unlikely), Romin Josi (not very likely), Anton Stralman (more likely). TBD.

McD WAS a #1 DMan from 2011-2017. The Rangers won 9 playoff series, went to 1 SCF, 3 ECFs, and two Division Titles. The #s don't lie. He wasn't as sexy as a Subban in his prime or a Doughty but that's like saying the 1993 Montreal Canadians were a garbage team because they didn't have Gretzky/Lemiuex/Messier up front. He's like a #4 now. Injuries have taken a toll on him whether it was Pacioretty's hit, Burrows to his shoulder, his 2015 ankle injury, his 2018 wrist injury, etc.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

If you want to split them into 2 deals, the return for each trade would be equally underwhelming. Especially if you consider Miller also didn't need to be moved at that point & subsequently Tampa turned around & dealt him for a better return.

As soon as he included Miller, Gorton should've demanded the 2nd 1st round pick. However, even if that 2nd 1st rounder was locked down, I'm still not sure the trade feels like a win...but it's way more palatable.

For the most part I like what Gorton has done during the rebuild, but I think there's a fair argument that this move wasn't his finest moment. And as much as we would like it to happen, not every trade will be a lopsided win in our favor. In a way this debate is comparable to the Odell Beckham trade...I wasn't upset he was moved, but the return didn't move the needle enough. Even if it was addition by subtraction.

I know this is a hockey thread and not to go too off the rails but I'm a Giants fan and the return for Beckham was very good if you take it as substance over style. Beckham was a headcase drama queen. He had two great years for the Giants and hasn't done anything since 2016. The issue wasn't the picks it's that they picked the wrong player in D'Andre Baker. Lawrence may still be solid and Peppers is fine.

For the McD trade lets see what all four become.

 

[Thirty One]

will Lundkvist at his prime be better than McDonagh at his prime?

Probably not, but he doesn't have to be even close for this to be a win.

 

[Mikos87]

If you want to split them into 2 deals, the return for each trade would be equally underwhelming. Especially if you consider Miller also didn't need to be moved at that point & subsequently Tampa turned around & dealt him for a better return.

As soon as he included Miller, Gorton should've demanded the 2nd 1st round pick. However, even if that 2nd 1st rounder was locked down, I'm still not sure the trade feels like a win...but it's way more palatable.

For the most part I like what Gorton has done during the rebuild, but I think there's a fair argument that this move wasn't his finest moment. And as much as we would like it to happen, not every trade will be a lopsided win in our favor. In a way this debate is comparable to the Odell Beckham trade...I wasn't upset he was moved, but the return didn't move the needle enough. Even if it was addition by subtraction.

I appreciate your thought. You know looking back on the trade is really something that allows for different perspective. Looking at aspects of it, how things were at the time, just the player itself. Best way to judge is to give it a couple of years, and see what the trade tree brings.

But yes, not every trade is a homerun. McDonagh as an asset, allows Tampa to run Hedman free out there without primary shutdown responsibilities, and that is a very effective formula for their back end. Hedman is good enough to dominate multiple aspects of the game without exerting or maximizing his efforts on being the top guy in all situations.

Miller I think panned out because Vancouver is a better situation for him. Younger team. Miller's had experience on winning teams, and some playoff runs. He can finally be an alpha dog on the roster. They have a good captain in Bo Horvat who is just a cool guy. A good leader. A modern day captain who is a good mix of old school and new.

So things pan out as they do. Looking forward to seeing how Nils plays out. He's certainly a very intriguing prospect. The Rangers were puck dominant last year when they put out Bread's unit with Fox and DeAngelo. Nils is a similar player.

 

[Leetch3]

This trade was never going to be a win 18 months later...everyone knew at the time that in the short term we were giving up the best player. The real judgement will come in a few years when we are hopefully good again and how many of the assets are part of that

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Probably not, but he doesn't have to be even close for this to be a win.

he kinda has to, unless the other pieces get really good.

 

[Thirty One]

he kinda has to, unless the other pieces get really good.

If you get a player from 18 and on who is even close to as good as a player you trade exiting his prime, that's a win.

 

[NYSPORTS]

will Lundkvist at his prime be better than McDonagh at his prime?

Overall i doubt it. Maybe offensively but McD has a real knack for pickpocketing opponents along with playing really solid defense. We’ll see about Lundy

 

[ETTER DE]

This is a really, really bad take.

Panarin played a huge roll but he wasn't the only one. There are so many guys who stepped up and delivered this year and we have others who wouldn't be here (Kakko, Fox, etc.) had he stayed, but like you said, not the conversation here.

And also the trade market doesnt work like that. If they were of equal ability, it's one thing where a team can single out a player by their handedness but they aren't. If you remember, the McDonagh deal went down as late as it did because the Bolts were waiting to see if they could get Karlsson instead.

You're trying to use hindsight to justify your opinion which is fine, but it isn't really fair if we're looking at the deal WHEN it was made.

It's like the Stepan trade. He and Raanta for DeAngelo (a talented yet undersized and polarizing player) and the 7OA in a weak draft was a pretty light return. Many people were upset and they had a right to be.

Now? It's a colossal win.

I dont understand this. You honestly believe that the McDonagh trade was better than the Stepan trade?

 

[ETTER DE]

Montour was a 24 year old pending RFA going to a team in a youth movement. The idea from Buffalo’s perspective was to get many playoff runs out of him. Age and contract status play a pretty big role in all of this.

Buffalo won the draft lottery after McDonagh was traded. If he had been available that summer they would have traded for him. That I am 98% sure of.