Mcdavid vs Matthews (This season)

[Dekes For Days]

My coach does not trust my player enough to play him in empty net situations, lets somehow make this into a bonus, no EN.

Both are equally trusted by their coaches, and nobody was given a bonus. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, throwing a puck into an empty net does not represent the same thing as producing against a goalie, and some people like them separated. Statistics were posted with EN included as well, if that's what was preferred.

My player is not as good on PP, lets make this into a bonnus. Lets eliminate the PP points.

Matthews is just as good as McDavid, if not better, on the PP this season, and PP production was included in all 3 of the forms (raw, per game, and per 60).

My player does not kill penalties, lets also eliminate SH points from the computations.

Neither player kills penalties. The entirety of their shorthanded production consists of 1 SH point for McDavid, which was included within the raw and per-game statistics.

My player doesn't have as much stamina, lets make that into a bonus.

Both players have equal stamina, and nobody was given any bonus.

My player got suspended, lets pretend that that is a bonus.

A ridiculous suspension has nothing to do with the quality of these players this season, and nobody was given a bonus for being suspended.

Once again, I posted all 3 of points, primary points, and goals, both with and without empty net situations, in all 3 of the main forms (raw, per game, and per 60). Both Matthews and McDavid had things they led in. Absolutely nothing was cherry picked in that post.

You're so threatened by a post providing an in-depth statistical comparison of their offensive production in all of the different forms, because you're so used to exclusively cherry picking raw points (which again, was included within my post) and you want everybody else to be equally inaccurate.

 

[Joe n]

My coach does not trust my player enough to play him in empty net situations, lets somehow make this into a bonus, no EN.

My player is not as good on PP, lets make this into a bonnus. Lets eliminate the PP points.

My player does not kill penalties, lets also eliminate SH points from the computations.

My player doesn't have as much stamina, lets make that into a bonus.

My player got suspended, lets pretend that that is a bonus.

and so on...

The simple fact that some of these "main form" calculations appear only when comparing AM with other players should speak volumes...

It's Matthews fault that the Leafs have the least amount of power plays in the league the last 4 years

 

[Zybalto]

Well when we take into account a "whole season" I don't think it makes sense to just discount the parts of the season that don't fit the narrative.

Also, it would probably be a stronger argument if you posted McDavids stats in those categories as well across a full season.

Just gonna give you them all from the full season then:


Matthews:

xGF%: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Shot Differential: 5th out of 169
Scoring chance differential: 1st out of 169
High Danger chance differential: 1st out of 169
Goals/60: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Total goals: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Points/60: 3rd out of 169
Total points: 2nd out of 169
Individual expected goals/60: 1st out of 169
Individual scoring chance creation: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Shots/60: 3rd out of 169
Total shots: 1st out of 169
Takeaways/60: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Total Takeaways: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Blocked shots/60: 17th out of 169
Faceoff%: Top 10 in the NHL
Fewest shots against/60: 8th out of 169
Fewest scoring chances against/60: 12th out of 169
xGA/60: 4th out of 169


PP: (100 minutes min, 189 forwards total)
Total Goals: 4th out of 189
Total Points: 13th out of 189
Goals/60: 3rd out of 189
Points/60: 9th out of 189


All situations:
Total Goals: 1st in the NHL
Total Points: 5th in the NHL
Goals/game: 1st in the NHL
Points per game: 2nd in the NHL


McDavid:

xGF%: 12th out of 169
Shot Differential: 21st out of 169
Scoring chance differential: 39th out of 169
High Danger chance differential: 23rd out of 169
Goals/60: 30th out of 169
Total goals: 7th out of 169
Points/60: 29th out of 169
Total points: 8th out of 169
Individual expected goals/60: 8th out of 169
Individual scoring chance creation: 22nd out of 169
Shots/60: 17th out of 169
Total shots: 4th out of 169
Takeaways/60: 14th out of 169
Total Takeaways: 2nd out of 169
Blocked shots/60: 130th out of 169
Faceoff%: Above average
Fewest shots against/60: 66th out of 169
Fewest scoring chances against/60: 86th out of 169
xGA/60: 59th out of 169

PP: (100 minutes min, 189 forwards total)
Total Goals: 28th out of 189
Total Points: 1st out of 189
Goals/60: 76th out of 189
Points/60: 3rd out of 189

All situations:
Total Goals: 5th in the NHL
Total Points: 1st in the NHL
Goals/game: 8th in the NHL
Points per game: 1st in the NHL


Let me know if I missed anything.

 

[Kamus]

It's Matthews fault that the Leafs have the least amount of power plays in the league the last 4 years

Yes, he should draw calls like Connor. Issue is that he doesn’t have the puck in his possession enough to do that. Which makes Connor a more important player.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Issue is that he doesn’t have the puck in his possession enough to do that.

He has the puck a ton, and people commit infractions against him all the time. There are too many issues to count when it comes to NHL officiating, but the actual issue at play here is that he's built like a truck, never dives, and rarely ever goes down, and because the NHL is all about that #screwtherulebookimgonnayoloit lifestyle, there is a massive disparity in how often equal committed infractions are called based on whether or not the player goes down. Also Leafs barely commit infractions so game management keeps PPs low.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

McDavid better and now and probably always

 

[Buck Naked]

Well I'm not only counting goals. But at the end of a hockey game they tally up how many goals each team scored to determine the winner. Meaning goals are inherently more valuable than assists.

An assist can't exist without a goal, so of course the goal is more valuable in the end. It's impossible to say which is better, however, without putting it into a context. Hell, some players score goals with their ass by just standing in the way. How is that in any way making the scorer better than someone transporting the puck and making a pass for someone just to score on an open net? When counting stats it's pure nonsense to value one over the other without knowing exactly what happened in each situation.

 

[Bounces R Way]

An assist can't exist without a goal, so of course the goal is more valuable in the end. It's impossible to say which is better, however, without putting it into a context. Hell, some players score goals with their ass by just standing in the way. How is that in any way making the scorer better than someone transporting the puck and making a pass for someone just to score on an open net? When counting stats it's pure nonsense to value one over the other without knowing exactly what happened in each situation.

Well he's not scoring 56 goals off his ass though is he. I'm sure on plenty of those goals Marner had the play that most directly contributed to a goal being scored. People knock 2nd assists but on many occasions that's the play that opens up a defense's seams. Somebody still has to put the puck in the net. Playmakers are historically the much more consistent producers, and that's why goalscorers of Ovechkin's and Matthews' caliber are so rare.

Goals win hockey games. It's not 'pure nonsense' to place a higher value on them than assists. Most fantasy leagues have goals as rated higher as they're the more scarce commodity. There's never going to be such a fully comprehensive analysis that has each point scored in the NHL correctly measured against the others. McDavid has plenty of gravy points just feeding Draisaitl for that one-timer of his too.

 

[armyjoe]

60 goals 100 points is hard to beat

 

[ijuka]

An assist can't exist without a goal, so of course the goal is more valuable in the end. It's impossible to say which is better, however, without putting it into a context. Hell, some players score goals with their ass by just standing in the way. How is that in any way making the scorer better than someone transporting the puck and making a pass for someone just to score on an open net? When counting stats it's pure nonsense to value one over the other without knowing exactly what happened in each situation.

Nope, goals are always worth more than assists. Primary assists might have some value but tracking secondary assists in the first place is a completely arbitrary decision. Why track secondary assists? Why not track tertiary assists? For assists, is s a routine pass in center ice more worthy of an assist than a screen that actually enables the goal being scored without touching the puck?

If a player's good at bouncing pucks off his ass to the net, then that's a pretty clear positive for the team, no matter how the goals are scored. Even with a great pass, if you flub on the puck or miss an open net, you didn't score a goal. For gauging playmaking, tracking advanced stats like scoring chance generation would be much more useful than assists in my opinion.

Some would have goals worth 1.7 times as much as an assist because that's about how many assists you get per goal. That in my opinion gives one a better idea than purely looking at points, but primary and secondary assists should be differentiated as well, and screen plays and similar should additionally be tracked because oftentimes they contribute more than the actual assists.

 

[daver]

Nope, goals are always worth more than assists. Primary assists might have some value but tracking secondary assists in the first place is a completely arbitrary decision. Why track secondary assists? Why not track tertiary assists? For assists, is s a routine pass in center ice more worthy of an assist than a screen that actually enables the goal being scored without touching the puck?

If a player's good at bouncing pucks off his ass to the net, then that's a pretty clear positive for the team, no matter how the goals are scored. Even with a great pass, if you flub on the puck or miss an open net, you didn't score a goal. For gauging playmaking, tracking advanced stats like scoring chance generation would be much more useful than assists in my opinion.

Some would have goals worth 1.7 times as much as an assist because that's about how many assists you get per goal. That in my opinion gives one a better idea than purely looking at points, but primary and secondary assists should be differentiated as well, and screen plays and similar should additionally be tracked because oftentimes they contribute more than the actual assists.

So a team's #1 scoring line should be made up of only the team's best shooters?

 

[RapidKnight]

An assist can't exist without a goal, so of course the goal is more valuable in the end. It's impossible to say which is better, however, without putting it into a context. Hell, some players score goals with their ass by just standing in the way. How is that in any way making the scorer better than someone transporting the puck and making a pass for someone just to score on an open net? When counting stats it's pure nonsense to value one over the other without knowing exactly what happened in each situation.

The argument is that more often than not a goal is greater or more valuable. I’m willing to change value if I’m getting a more accurate representation at the end of the day. Imo, secondaries are the problem.
Also, not even the best playmakers have consistent secondary point totals on a month to month basis because they have a lesser impact in those situation. Higher inconsistency/variance means there are more variables at stake, and it suggests that it is not a good individual stat.

 

[daver]

Well he's not scoring 56 goals off his ass though is he. I'm sure on plenty of those goals Marner had the play that most directly contributed to a goal being scored. People knock 2nd assists but on many occasions that's the play that opens up a defense's seams. Somebody still has to put the puck in the net. Playmakers are historically the much more consistent producers, and that's why goalscorers of Ovechkin's and Matthews' caliber are so rare.

Goals win hockey games. It's not 'pure nonsense' to place a higher value on them than assists. Most fantasy leagues have goals as rated higher as they're the more scarce commodity. There's never going to be such a fully comprehensive analysis that has each point scored in the NHL correctly measured against the others. McDavid has plenty of gravy points just feeding Draisaitl for that one-timer of his too.

Let's go with what the fantasy leagues say rather than what the hockey media, the players, the coaches and the GMs have to say. Throughout hockey history they all recognize that playmaking skills can be as important, or even moreso, than goalscoring skills.

 

[GoldenKnight]

Connor McDavid has been better than Matthews, or any other player, this current season. McDavid will post a career-high scoring season this year.

McDavid does not have a 100-point-winger like Marner on his line this season to feed him at even strength, like Matthews benefits from in Toronto.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Let's go with what the fantasy leagues say rather than what the hockey media, the players, the coaches and the GMs have to say. Throughout hockey history they all recognize that playmaking skills can be as important, or even moreso, than goalscoring skills.

Ok. Let's go through it then. Find me some hockey media, players, coaches, and GMs that say assists are more valuable than goals.

 

[authentic]

Just gonna give you them all from the full season then:


Matthews:

xGF%: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Shot Differential: 5th out of 169
Scoring chance differential: 1st out of 169
High Danger chance differential: 1st out of 169
Goals/60: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Total goals: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Points/60: 3rd out of 169
Total points: 2nd out of 169
Individual expected goals/60: 1st out of 169
Individual scoring chance creation: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Shots/60: 3rd out of 169
Total shots: 1st out of 169
Takeaways/60: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Total Takeaways: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Blocked shots/60: 17th out of 169
Faceoff%: Top 10 in the NHL
Fewest shots against/60: 8th out of 169
Fewest scoring chances against/60: 12th out of 169
xGA/60: 4th out of 169


PP: (100 minutes min, 189 forwards total)
Total Goals: 4th out of 189
Total Points: 13th out of 189
Goals/60: 3rd out of 189
Points/60: 9th out of 189


All situations:
Total Goals: 1st in the NHL
Total Points: 5th in the NHL
Goals/game: 1st in the NHL
Points per game: 2nd in the NHL


McDavid:

xGF%: 12th out of 169
Shot Differential: 21st out of 169
Scoring chance differential: 39th out of 169
High Danger chance differential: 23rd out of 169
Goals/60: 30th out of 169
Total goals: 7th out of 169
Points/60: 29th out of 169
Total points: 8th out of 169
Individual expected goals/60: 8th out of 169
Individual scoring chance creation: 22nd out of 169
Shots/60: 17th out of 169
Total shots: 4th out of 169
Takeaways/60: 14th out of 169
Total Takeaways: 2nd out of 169
Blocked shots/60: 130th out of 169
Faceoff%: Above average
Fewest shots against/60: 66th out of 169
Fewest scoring chances against/60: 86th out of 169
xGA/60: 59th out of 169

PP: (100 minutes min, 189 forwards total)
Total Goals: 28th out of 189
Total Points: 1st out of 189
Goals/60: 76th out of 189
Points/60: 3rd out of 189

All situations:
Total Goals: 5th in the NHL
Total Points: 1st in the NHL
Goals/game: 8th in the NHL
Points per game: 1st in the NHL


Let me know if I missed anything.

You're only listing the stats that favour Matthews.

 

[daver]

Ok. Let's go through it then. Find me some hockey media, players, coaches, and GMs that say assists are more valuable than goals.

Historical Hart voting, Lindsay voting, line combinations, and salary levels all clearly point to placing value on overall offensive production, not just goalscoring. If you want to give a marginal edge to someone with similar point totals but scores more goals than assists, that's fine. Of course there are other things that have to be considered like linemates.

 

[Stamkos4life]

Crazy how mcd had a 1.88 ppg last year but only a 1.50 ppg this year. While matthews had a 1.27 ppg last year but now he's rocking a 1.48 ppg.

Looking at mcd and drai, they had better stats in the north division while matthews and marner have better stats in the normal divisions.

Things can still change in the last 10 games but matthews is making this far closer than I imagined.

 

[pcruz]

Crazy how mcd had a 1.88 ppg last year but only a 1.50 ppg this year. While matthews had a 1.27 ppg last year but now he's rocking a 1.48 ppg.

Looking at mcd and drai, they had better stats in the north division while matthews and marner have better stats in the normal divisions.

Things can still change in the last 10 games but matthews is making this far closer than I imagined.

It's not that crazy.

Matthews finished last season with a heavily bandaged wrist.
He spent much of the season not attempting his normal shots.
In the playoffs, his wrist was extremely bandaged the entire series.

After the playoffs ended in failure, Matthews had surgery on the wrist and that led to him missing training camp (no pre-season games) and the first 3 games of this season.

I don't know what he had implanted into his wrist, but the rest of the league is going to have mysterious wrist injuries requiring surgery going forward here. His surgeon is going to install a money printing machine in one of the back rooms of the hospital he works out of!!

 

[Drytoast]

The hart will seal the deal. At least this year, Matthews 60 goals 100 point season tops McDavid.

Soaky, McDavid makes a hell of a 2C.

 

[hockeeyyy]

Just gonna give you them all from the full season then:


Matthews:

xGF%: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Shot Differential: 5th out of 169
Scoring chance differential: 1st out of 169
High Danger chance differential: 1st out of 169
Goals/60: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Total goals: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Points/60: 3rd out of 169
Total points: 2nd out of 169
Individual expected goals/60: 1st out of 169
Individual scoring chance creation: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Shots/60: 3rd out of 169
Total shots: 1st out of 169
Takeaways/60: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Total Takeaways: 1st out of 169 (by far)
Blocked shots/60: 17th out of 169
Faceoff%: Top 10 in the NHL
Fewest shots against/60: 8th out of 169
Fewest scoring chances against/60: 12th out of 169
xGA/60: 4th out of 169


PP: (100 minutes min, 189 forwards total)
Total Goals: 4th out of 189
Total Points: 13th out of 189
Goals/60: 3rd out of 189
Points/60: 9th out of 189


All situations:
Total Goals: 1st in the NHL
Total Points: 5th in the NHL
Goals/game: 1st in the NHL
Points per game: 2nd in the NHL


McDavid:

xGF%: 12th out of 169
Shot Differential: 21st out of 169
Scoring chance differential: 39th out of 169
High Danger chance differential: 23rd out of 169
Goals/60: 30th out of 169
Total goals: 7th out of 169
Points/60: 29th out of 169
Total points: 8th out of 169
Individual expected goals/60: 8th out of 169
Individual scoring chance creation: 22nd out of 169
Shots/60: 17th out of 169
Total shots: 4th out of 169
Takeaways/60: 14th out of 169
Total Takeaways: 2nd out of 169
Blocked shots/60: 130th out of 169
Faceoff%: Above average
Fewest shots against/60: 66th out of 169
Fewest scoring chances against/60: 86th out of 169
xGA/60: 59th out of 169

PP: (100 minutes min, 189 forwards total)
Total Goals: 28th out of 189
Total Points: 1st out of 189
Goals/60: 76th out of 189
Points/60: 3rd out of 189

All situations:
Total Goals: 5th in the NHL
Total Points: 1st in the NHL
Goals/game: 8th in the NHL
Points per game: 1st in the NHL


Let me know if I missed anything.

Kind of amazed no one is really responding to this. This only solidifies what most hockey people and Leafs fans already know.

About the only thing that gives me a bit of pause is that McDavid's oish% is at a career low. Part of that has to do with the fact that he's not being as aggressive as he used to be though. He's clearly fixating on the defensive side of the puck for once in his career, and he's doing pretty good! Not as good as Matthews, but good enough that he's got a chance to be a lot better once he figures out how to balance the two sides of the ice the way Matthews does it. Maybe one day he will be as good as Matthews and we can start comparing the two again.

 

[IPS]

Connor McDavid has been better than Matthews, or any other player, this current season. McDavid will post a career-high scoring season this year.

McDavid does not have a 100-point-winger like Marner on his line this season to feed him at even strength, like Matthews benefits from in Toronto.

Except when Marner is losing polls to every team's favorite player

 

[authentic]

Crazy how mcd had a 1.88 ppg last year but only a 1.50 ppg this year. While matthews had a 1.27 ppg last year but now he's rocking a 1.48 ppg.

Looking at mcd and drai, they had better stats in the north division while matthews and marner have better stats in the normal divisions.

Things can still change in the last 10 games but matthews is making this far closer than I imagined.

Yep the combination of Matthews not dealing with the wrist injury and McDavid focusing a little more defensively, plus in a shorter season like that McDavid could probably go all out and use his bursts of speed to his advantage more often to outscore everyone in a shorter period without wearing himself out in the long run. His scoring is inline with every other regular season he has had so far really and although he has a lower on ice shooting % which should even out going forward he also 5 more empty net points than Matthews (10 in total) and a minute more PP time per game than Matthews (Matthews is the best offensive player on the #1 PP in the NHL). Hyman is closer to McDavid's 5v5 production per/60 at ES than Marner is to Matthews as well and Draisaitl is in on 40% of his overall points despite them playing together on the powerplay for over 2/3s of their total ice time. Doesn't take away from his amazing season last year but going forward I don't expect to see that separation again especially over Matthews fully entering his peak here.

 

[authentic]

Also Matthews has a higher g/60 5vs5 than McDavid has primary points/60 right now. 2.06 > 2. That's really just the cherry on top of him having the clearly better season.

 

[Mez]

Crazy how mcd had a 1.88 ppg last year but only a 1.50 ppg this year. While matthews had a 1.27 ppg last year but now he's rocking a 1.48 ppg.

Looking at mcd and drai, they had better stats in the north division while matthews and marner have better stats in the normal divisions.

Things can still change in the last 10 games but matthews is making this far closer than I imagined.

That because McDrai were on the same line most of last season.