Why are you only counting goals? How many more points does Matthews have than McDavid?
Mcdavid vs Matthews (This season)
- Thread starter OneSniffTwoSniff
- Start date
- Apr 20, 2016
- 5,772
- 6,816
I think if all else is even, goals are more important than assists. The question becomes, how close does the point lead need to be to value it more than the goal scoring? Right now I believe it's at 11. I think if Matthews finishes within 10 points, I'd say he's had the better season for me personally. Is that the way people will vote on season ending awards, I don't think so though.
Bounces R Way
Registered User
Well I'm not only counting goals. But at the end of a hockey game they tally up how many goals each team scored to determine the winner. Meaning goals are inherently more valuable than assists.
What an incredibly weird way of looking at things. Is the 35-25 guy more valuable than the 20-70 guy because “goals are more valuable”?
Paul4587
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2006
- 31,185
- 13,199
Exactly. It depends entirely on the context. I saw it long enough in Anaheim with prime Getzlaf and Perry - the latter scored far more goals but the former was the far more important player.
This whole goals vs assists debate is nice and all, but if you look at both players beyond just points the result is pretty clear that Matthews is a better player this year. Matthews is scoring a ton of goals while also playing great defense, McDavid is not nearly as good on the defensive side of the game.
McDavid has 11 more points that Matthews and the difference in their 200 ft games way more than makes up for that 11 point difference.
McDavid has 11 more points that Matthews and the difference in their 200 ft games way more than makes up for that 11 point difference.
Bounces R Way
Registered User
Well that's just putting words in my mouth. I didn't make that argument.
Yes when two players point totals are comparable, which I believe in this case they certainly are, it's worth inspecting just what kind of points each player is producing. Scoring goals is the hardest thing to do as a player and as such should be recognized as more valuable. There are 4 players currently on pace to break 50 goals. There are 17 players already with 50 assists, with probably 10 more likely to break that threshold. Not every point is created equal, to assume that they are is just incomplete analysis.
Raw Production
Points
McDavid - 108
Matthews - 97
Points (No EN)
McDavid - 98
Matthews - 92
Primary Points
McDavid - 83
Matthews - 81
Primary Points (No EN)
McDavid - 75
Matthews - 77
Goals
McDavid - 42
Matthews - 56
Goals (No EN)
McDavid - 36
Matthews - 52
Per Game Production
Points Per Game
McDavid - 1.52
Matthews - 1.47
Points Per Game (No EN)
McDavid - 1.38
Matthews - 1.39
Primary Points Per Game
McDavid - 1.17
Matthews - 1.23
Primary Points Per Game (No EN)
McDavid - 1.06
Matthews - 1.17
Goals Per Game
McDavid - 0.59
Matthews - 0.85
Goals Per Game (No EN)
McDavid - 0.51
Matthews - 0.79
Per 60 Production
ES Points Per 60
McDavid - 3.15
Matthews - 3.60
ES Points Per 60 (No EN)
McDavid - 2.68
Matthews - 3.34
ES Primary Points Per 60
McDavid - 2.54
Matthews - 3.03
ES Primary Points Per 60 (No EN)
McDavid - 2.17
Matthews - 2.82
ES Goals Per 60
McDavid - 1.53
Matthews - 2.14
ES Goals Per 60 (No EN)
McDavid - 1.25
Matthews - 1.93
PP Points Per 60
McDavid - 8.80
Matthews - 8.41
PP Primary Points Per 60
McDavid - 6.09
Matthews - 6.91
PP Goals Per 60
McDavid - 2.03
Matthews - 4.51
Points
McDavid - 108
Matthews - 97
Points (No EN)
McDavid - 98
Matthews - 92
Primary Points
McDavid - 83
Matthews - 81
Primary Points (No EN)
McDavid - 75
Matthews - 77
Goals
McDavid - 42
Matthews - 56
Goals (No EN)
McDavid - 36
Matthews - 52
Per Game Production
Points Per Game
McDavid - 1.52
Matthews - 1.47
Points Per Game (No EN)
McDavid - 1.38
Matthews - 1.39
Primary Points Per Game
McDavid - 1.17
Matthews - 1.23
Primary Points Per Game (No EN)
McDavid - 1.06
Matthews - 1.17
Goals Per Game
McDavid - 0.59
Matthews - 0.85
Goals Per Game (No EN)
McDavid - 0.51
Matthews - 0.79
Per 60 Production
ES Points Per 60
McDavid - 3.15
Matthews - 3.60
ES Points Per 60 (No EN)
McDavid - 2.68
Matthews - 3.34
ES Primary Points Per 60
McDavid - 2.54
Matthews - 3.03
ES Primary Points Per 60 (No EN)
McDavid - 2.17
Matthews - 2.82
ES Goals Per 60
McDavid - 1.53
Matthews - 2.14
ES Goals Per 60 (No EN)
McDavid - 1.25
Matthews - 1.93
PP Points Per 60
McDavid - 8.80
Matthews - 8.41
PP Primary Points Per 60
McDavid - 6.09
Matthews - 6.91
PP Goals Per 60
McDavid - 2.03
Matthews - 4.51
- Sep 8, 2004
- 15,378
- 2,058
Goals are most valuable, Primary assists are 2nd most valuable, and secondary assists should just be eliminated. they only exist to enhance stats and make players seem more exciting.
this season for example, and i'm considering only what should be considered 'valuable points':
McDavid G 44, PA 43 = 87 valuable points in 71 games (2ndAssists 24)
Draisaitl G 50, PA 29 = 79 valuable points in 71 games (2ndAssists 25)
Huberdreau G 26, PA 49 = 75 valuable points in 70 games (2ndAssists 28)
Gaudreau G 36, PA 46 = 82 valuable points in 71 games (2ndAssists 18)
Matthews G 56, PA 25 = 81 valuable points in 66 games (2ndAssists 16)
Marner G 31, PA 33 = 74 valuable points in 63 games (2ndAssists 26)
As you can see this changes players seeming value a little, and really shows how Gaudreau is having a career season.
and this shows how 2ndary assists really help d-men stats too
Josi points 87 (2ndAssists 33)
Makar points 75 (2ndAssists 27)
Fox points 67 (2ndAssists 25)
take away 2ndary assists and McAvoy only has 21 points (has 50) and Toews would have 24 points (has 53)
you need to drop all the way down to 20th in the league to find a player with less than Matthews 16 secondary assists (3 others in top 20 also have 16, and only 1 other in the top 10)
Obviously a 90 point player would be better than a 60 point player, so I'm not sure what your point is there. As far as McDavid and Matthews are concerned their points per game are basically identical this season and the small edge McDavid has comes entirely from empty net points anyway. Is someone who scores more points per game on a goalie more valuable than a guy who gets a few more empty net points?
Shad
Registered User
- Mar 5, 2011
- 1,128
- 1,065
Matthews. Better defensively and better offensively this season.
Shad
Registered User
- Mar 5, 2011
- 1,128
- 1,065
I’m happy to see someone understands this concept. Of course an assist is not equal a goal in a league where on average 1.67 assists are awarded per goal scored. Just makes no sense to value offensive production based on “points”
DanM
Registered User
- Oct 2, 2017
- 5,584
- 3,516
Yep, I did. He’s playing amazing. He could be the most overrated player from a couple years ago and still be great this year. The two can still be correct.
Lmao. Keep harping on empty net points.
You can argue though that a primary assist is as valuable as a goal as there are fewer primary assists than there are goals. You also can’t call secondary assists worthless as clearly there is a value. Perhaps discounting secondary assists would make some sense.
I think in the overall discussion you also have to factor in linemates. There’s no question that Matthews plays with better linemates 5 vs 5. I mean I see some docking McDavid because he plays more pp minutes (I actually don’t agree with this but I’ve seen the argument made) but then cherry picking by ignoring the linemates advantage for Matthews.
Last edited:
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
- 56,434
- 48,413
The folks who harp on the goals are more important assist thing must also think that Tom Brady's receivers are more responsible for those Super Bowls than Brady since they're the ones scoring the touchdowns, he's simply "passing" to them.
(Note: it's obviously an exaggerated example, but used to point out the idea that the one scoring the goal/touchdown isn't automatically the most important player during a sequence that leads to a goal/touchdown and ignores the role the guy who "sets up" the goal played in the sequence)
(Note: it's obviously an exaggerated example, but used to point out the idea that the one scoring the goal/touchdown isn't automatically the most important player during a sequence that leads to a goal/touchdown and ignores the role the guy who "sets up" the goal played in the sequence)
That's actually the opposite of how it works. A goal doesn't need help from another player on your team and assists technically do. Still though a primary assist from McDavid or any elite playmaker in general I value equally to a goal.
I've never seen so many "let's make my player look better" picked stats in a single post
I've never seen so many "let's make my player look better" picked stats in a single post
There’s a lot of people picking the above today!
Lol. Nothing about those stats is "let's make my player look better". It's amazing how somebody can post all 3 of points, primary points, and goals, both with and without empty net situations, in all 3 of the main forms (raw, per game, and per 60), and they'll still get people throwing out ridiculous claims of cherry picking because their own method of exclusively cherry picking raw points (which was even included!) is being challenged.
My coach does not trust my player enough to play him in empty net situations, lets somehow make this into a bonus, no EN.
My player is not as good on PP, lets make this into a bonnus. Lets eliminate the PP points.
My player does not kill penalties, lets also eliminate SH points from the computations.
My player doesn't have as much stamina, lets make that into a bonus.
My player got suspended, lets pretend that that is a bonus.
and so on...
The simple fact that some of these "main form" calculations appear only when comparing AM with other players should speak volumes...
Felidae
Registered User
- Sep 30, 2016
- 11,704
- 14,650
Better leader?
Wow, what's it like having teleportation powers being in the locker rooms of both the Oilers and Maple Leafs?
Which is why I’ve always liked plain old boring points as the measuring stick.
If you adjust down McDavid for staying healthy all year and not getting suspended and adjust him down for scoring empty net points to preserve victories and then adjust him down because he has the unusual stamina to play huge minutes then you need to adjust down Matthews for playing with a top 10 player like Marner.
Rather than manipulating the data for either player it’s easier to just use points and goals.
I mean I’d certainly be open to reading a formula that adjusts for all of these factors but most of the posts just seem to be adjusting one way and not looking at both sides objectively.
OG Eberle
Registered User
- Aug 25, 2011
- 1,571
- 1,978
Well when we take into account a "whole season" I don't think it makes sense to just discount the parts of the season that don't fit the narrative.
Also, it would probably be a stronger argument if you posted McDavids stats in those categories as well across a full season.
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