McDavid is on a serious run to try and break Gretzky's single season playoff assist record (he did it)

[Sanderson]

On a per game basis, Lemieux's a significantly better goalscorer.

Per game basis hinges a lot on the number of games you play and how early you retire. Mike Bossy's goals per game average would have been a whole lot lower if he had a long and healthy career. At the same time, his career totals would have been a whole lot higher as well. The same can be said for Mario Lemieux. Wayne Gretzky, and players like Mark Messier and Ron Francis, are on the other end of the spectrum, accumulating larger totals at the cost of reduced averages (as crazy as that sounds in regard to Gretzky).

Mario Lemieux passed Wayne Gretzky in points per game at some point because he had retired while Gretzky continued to play way past his prime. Then Lemieux returned, and Gretzky passed him again while being in retirement, as late-stage Lemieux couldn't keep up the necessary pace to stay ahead. And that was while he was putting up 76 points in 43 games during his comeback season. Averages without context are useless, as is comparing the final averages for someone with a short and injury-troubled career with those of someone with a long and healthy one. All you can really do, is compare those players based on similar time-frames and games played to even out the playing-field.

Which doesn't change that Mario Lemieux might be the most talented hockey player ever. Just short of being the best one though.

 

[WalterLundy]

On a per game basis, Lemieux's a significantly better goalscorer.

If you compare 1487 games to 915 he has a goals per game edge sure. Very deceptive though.

Through 915 games (or any even sample size of games throughout their careers) he was not. Lemieux played 170 games post prime to Gretzky’s 562 post prime. You can go year by year by year for Lemieux and match games with Gretzky and this holds true. There is one period of 17 year by year comparison stoppages (788 GP) where Lemieux has a 2 more goals than Gretzky in even games. This isn’t a subjective topic it’s just statistical fact that through the duration of their careers it was Gretzky who was the superior per game goal scorer every time. Lemieux being as good, better or vastly better at goal scoring is just patently false.

73 GP:
WG: 45 G
ML: 43 G

152 GP:
WG: 103 G
ML: 91 G

215 GP:
WG: 174 G
ML: 145 G

292 GP:
WG: 242 G
ML: 215 G

368 GP:
WG: 327 G
ML: 300 G

427 GP:
WG: 392 G
ML: 345 G

453 GP:
WG: 416
ML: 364

517 GP:
WG: 462 G
ML: 408 G

577 GP:
WG: 502 G
ML: 477 G

599 GP:
WG: 524 G
ML: 494 G

669 GP:
WG: 572 G
ML: 563 G

745 GP:
WG: 616 G
ML: 613 G

788 GP:
WG: 646 G
ML: 648 G

812 GP:
WG: 656 G
ML: 654 G

879 GP:
WG: 697 G
ML: 682 G

889 GP:
WG: 702 G
ML: 683 G

915 GP:
WG: 715 G
ML: 690 G

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Per game basis hinges a lot on the number of games you play and how early you retire. Mike Bossy's goals per game average would have been a whole lot lower if he had a long and healthy career. At the same time, his career totals would have been a whole lot higher as well. The same can be said for Mario Lemieux. Wayne Gretzky, and players like Mark Messier and Ron Francis, are on the other end of the spectrum, accumulating larger totals at the cost of reduced averages (as crazy as that sounds in regard to Gretzky).

Mario Lemieux passed Wayne Gretzky in points per game at some point because he had retired while Gretzky continued to play way past his prime. Then Lemieux returned, and Gretzky passed him again while being in retirement, as late-stage Lemieux couldn't keep up the necessary pace to stay ahead. And that was while he was putting up 76 points in 43 games during his comeback season. Averages without context are useless, as is comparing the final averages for someone with a short and injury-troubled career with those of someone with a long and healthy one. All you can really do, is compare those players based on similar time-frames and games played to even out the playing-field.

Which doesn't change that Mario Lemieux might be the most talented hockey player ever. Just short of being the best one though.

I don't disagree with anything you've written here. But there's a big enough sample size to see that Lemieux was pretty close to Gretz per game wise but was overall more goal oriented. And yeah, Lemlieux retired and unretired... but he missed a ton of his prime. There's a big enough sample to know how good he was. He was comparable to Gretzky but a better goal scoring threat.

Gretzky's superpower wasn't just being dominant - it was staying healthy. Nobody, nobody - had near the career he did. That's indisputable.

As for McDavid, the fact that he's even in this discussion is a tribute to how good he's been. Just outstanding.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If you compare 1487 games to 915 he has a goals per game edge sure. Very deceptive though.

Through 915 games (or any even sample size of games throughout their careers) he was not. Lemieux played 170 games post prime to Gretzky’s 562 post prime. You can go year by year by year for Lemieux and match games with Gretzky and this holds true. There is one period of 17 year by year comparison stoppages (788 GP) where Lemieux has a 2 more goals than Gretzky in even games. This isn’t a subjective topic it’s just statistical fact that through the duration of their careers it was Gretzky who was the superior per game goal scorer every time. Lemieux being as good, better or vastly better at goal scoring is just patently false.

73 GP:
WG: 45 G
ML: 43 G

152 GP:
WG: 103 G
ML: 91 G

215 GP:
WG: 174 G
ML: 145 G

292 GP:
WG: 242 G
ML: 215 G

368 GP:
WG: 327 G
ML: 300 G

427 GP:
WG: 392 G
ML: 345 G

453 GP:
WG: 416
ML: 364

517 GP:
WG: 462 G
ML: 408 G

577 GP:
WG: 502 G
ML: 477 G

599 GP:
WG: 524 G
ML: 494 G

669 GP:
WG: 572 G
ML: 563 G

745 GP:
WG: 616 G
ML: 613 G

788 GP:
WG: 646 G
ML: 648 G

812 GP:
WG: 656 G
ML: 654 G

879 GP:
WG: 697 G
ML: 682 G

889 GP:
WG: 702 G
ML: 683 G

915 GP:
WG: 715 G
ML: 690 G

Good points. However, if you're going to credit Gretz for having the longer career, then you have to factor in the dropoff in goals later on. He skewed far more towards a playmaker in his later career. Moreover, Lemieux is missing a shit ton of his prime here.

Gretzky's overall career dwarfs anyone but if you're going to look at both their careers as a whole (which we SHOULD do) then you can't dispute that Lemieux has a much higher goal rating. If we're goign to play a shoulda/coulda game, then that's going to favour Lemieux more than it will Gretz. Stopping at 915 games when one guy's like 28 and the other's 36 or whatever is silly. They are NOT the same thing.

So YEAH, I'd take Lemieux's goalscoring without question here.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Now he just needs to win a Stanley Cup and he's the GOAT!

Lol. I'm not an Oiler's fan, Gretzky IS the ultimate GOAT..........

Such an interesting comparison, because both are Oiler's........

 

[Canovin]

You could have asked Marchessault the same thing about his goals and Eichel's assists, yet the voters gave Marchessault the Conn Smythe.

Does Eichel dance around teams and make them look silly before dishing out a pass to March?

 

[WalterLundy]

Good points. However, if you're going to credit Gretz for having the longer career, then you have to factor in the dropoff in goals later on. He skewed far more towards a playmaker in his later career. Moreover, Lemieux is missing a shit ton of his prime here.

Gretzky's overall career dwarfs anyone but if you're going to look at both their careers as a whole (which we SHOULD do) then you can't dispute that Lemieux has a much higher goal rating. If we're goign to play a shoulda/coulda game, then that's going to favour Lemieux more than it will Gretz. Stopping at 915 games when one guy's like 28 and the other's 36 or whatever is silly. They are NOT the same thing.

So YEAH, I'd take Lemieux's goalscoring without question here.

It’s not about crediting Gretzky with the longer career or with anything really. All I was doing was going year by year and showing the goal scoring favoring Gretzky every year evenly. The first 915 games of Gretzky’s career is still his career after all and penalizing a player for playing 562 more games post prime and devoid of goal scoring (Lemieux only playing 170 games post prime and 392 less post prime games than Gretzky) doesn’t make sense at all. Especially when determining who the better goal scorer is. This isn’t a what if game it’s history. Gretzky doesn’t need any what ifs.

If the guy who played more can match the guy who played less and beat him in that window for this stat before playing longer then it is a no brainer. Otherwise it would have been better for Gretzky to retire in 1991 after the CC Suter hit and retire with the highest G/GP ever if that’s how we are going to determine things (and highest per game rates in everything, with assists and points per game being comical records).

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It’s not about crediting Gretzky with the longer career or with anything really. All I was doing was going year by year and showing the goal scoring favoring Gretzky every year evenly. The first 915 games of Gretzky’s career is still his career after all and penalizing a player for playing 562 more games post prime and devoid of goal scoring (Lemieux only playing 170 games post prime and 392 less post prime games than Gretzky) doesn’t make sense at all. Especially when determining who the better goal scorer is. This isn’t a what if game it’s history. Gretzky doesn’t need any what ifs.

If the guy who played more can match the guy who played less and beat him in that window for this stat before playing longer then it is a no brainer. Otherwise it would have been better for Gretzky to retire in 1991 after the CC Suter hit and retire with the highest G/GP ever if that’s how we are going to determine things (and highest per game rates in everything, with assists and points per game being comical records).

But you’re ignoring that Lemieux’s 915th game comes when he’s 40 years old and Wayne is 30 on his 915th…

Not the same thing.

 

[WalterLundy]

But you’re ignoring that Lemieux’s 915th game comes when he’s 40 years old and Wayne is 30 on his 915th…

Not the same thing.

That’s why I went year by year and chronicled Gretzky being superior for goal scoring in all of the respective points of Lemieux’s career GP. I’m not ignoring anything I promise.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That’s why I went year by year and chronicled Gretzky being superior for goal scoring in all of the respective points of Lemieux’s career GP. I’m not ignoring anything I promise.

You are ignoring it. Lemieux hits his 740th game three years older than Gretzky and the goals per game gap is widening in his favour- then he retires and comes back five years later.

It’s not apples to apples.

 

[WalterLundy]

You are ignoring it. Lemieux hits his 740th game three years older than Gretzky and the goals per game gap is widening in his favour- then he retires and comes back five years later.

It’s not apples to apples.

Nobody told him to retire. I wish he’d have kept going more than anyone but I get why he didn’t. He was my favorite player to watch. Life isn’t fair and neither are sports. You can go age by age or season by season and just forget games played and there is never a point that Lemieux is significantly better than Gretzky at goal scoring. Here’s the perfect example before things fall apart for Mario’s career to satiate this hunger for equity.

85-93 Lemieux: (first 9 seasons and age 19 to 27) pretty much his entire meaningful career right here if we are being honest

577 GP:
477 G, 697 A, 1174 PTS (2.03 PPG)
.83 G/GP

80-88 Gretzky (first 9 seasons and age 19 to 27) nothing to dispute here as it is an exact age and season match

696 GP:
583 G, 1086 A, 1669 PTS (2.40 PPG)
.84 G/GP

Gretzky is better per game in goal scoring here and does so by maintaining the higher G/GP average for 119 more games. This really should be a non topic or thing but I hope this helps and is apples to apples.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Nobody told him to retire. I wish he’d have kept going more than anyone but I get why he didn’t. He was my favorite player to watch. Life isn’t fair and neither are sports. You can go age by age or season by season and just forget games played and there is never a point that Lemieux is significantly better than Gretzky at goal scoring. Here’s the perfect example before things fall apart for Mario’s career to satiate this hunger for equity.

85-93 Lemieux: (first 9 seasons and age 19 to 27) pretty much his entire meaningful career right here if we are being honest

577 GP:
477 G, 697 A, 1174 PTS (2.03 PPG)
.83 G/GP

80-88 Gretzky (first 9 seasons and age 19 to 27) nothing to dispute here as it is an exact age and season match

696 GP:
583 G, 1086 A, 1669 PTS (2.40 PPG)
.84 G/GP

Gretzky is better per game in goal scoring here and does so by maintaining the higher G/GP average for 119 more games. This really should be a non topic or thing but I hope this helps and is apples to apples.

Again... By the time they hit 700 something games, Lemieux is three years older. By the time he hits 915 he's ten years older. It is NOT the same thing.

It's very clear that by age 30 Lemieux is putting up significantly better goal numbers. He's a better goal scorer for sure. The only way to really look at this fairly is to look at career totality and average from there. Both guys retired at 40. Both guys have declining years. It won't ever be exact apples to apples but it's the best way to compare them. Gretz simply stops scoring goals later on. Maybe he didn't care anymore, maybe he lost zip off his shot... whatever. But Lemieux was consistently incredible at putting the puck in the net. He's better by a significant margin - although your points about peak are well taken. I'm not totally dismissing that, but Lemieux's the better goal scorer.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

If you compare 1487 games to 915 he has a goals per game edge sure. Very deceptive though.

Through 915 games (or any even sample size of games throughout their careers) he was not. Lemieux played 170 games post prime to Gretzky’s 562 post prime. You can go year by year by year for Lemieux and match games with Gretzky and this holds true. There is one period of 17 year by year comparison stoppages (788 GP) where Lemieux has a 2 more goals than Gretzky in even games. This isn’t a subjective topic it’s just statistical fact that through the duration of their careers it was Gretzky who was the superior per game goal scorer every time. Lemieux being as good, better or vastly better at goal scoring is just patently false.

73 GP:
WG: 45 G
ML: 43 G

152 GP:
WG: 103 G
ML: 91 G

215 GP:
WG: 174 G
ML: 145 G

292 GP:
WG: 242 G
ML: 215 G

368 GP:
WG: 327 G
ML: 300 G

427 GP:
WG: 392 G
ML: 345 G

453 GP:
WG: 416
ML: 364

517 GP:
WG: 462 G
ML: 408 G

577 GP:
WG: 502 G
ML: 477 G

599 GP:
WG: 524 G
ML: 494 G

669 GP:
WG: 572 G
ML: 563 G

745 GP:
WG: 616 G
ML: 613 G

788 GP:
WG: 646 G
ML: 648 G

812 GP:
WG: 656 G
ML: 654 G

879 GP:
WG: 697 G
ML: 682 G

889 GP:
WG: 702 G
ML: 683 G

915 GP:
WG: 715 G
ML: 690 G

Lemieiux being 25 goals behind for his career compared to Gretzky from ages 19-30 in seasons 1979-1991 is a huge point in Lemieux's favor, thanks for posting. Timing is everything, Gretzky's prime overlapped perfectly with the highest scoring era in NHL history, and his goal scoring dropped off much more sharply than his comparables with the rise of butterfly goaltending.

Nobody told him to retire. I wish he’d have kept going more than anyone but I get why he didn’t. He was my favorite player to watch. Life isn’t fair and neither are sports. You can go age by age or season by season and just forget games played and there is never a point that Lemieux is significantly better than Gretzky at goal scoring. Here’s the perfect example before things fall apart for Mario’s career to satiate this hunger for equity.

85-93 Lemieux: (first 9 seasons and age 19 to 27) pretty much his entire meaningful career right here if we are being honest

577 GP:
477 G, 697 A, 1174 PTS (2.03 PPG)
.83 G/GP

80-88 Gretzky (first 9 seasons and age 19 to 27) nothing to dispute here as it is an exact age and season match

696 GP:
583 G, 1086 A, 1669 PTS (2.40 PPG)
.84 G/GP

Gretzky is better per game in goal scoring here and does so by maintaining the higher G/GP average for 119 more games. This really should be a non topic or thing but I hope this helps and is apples to apples.

League gpg was higher for Gretzky's time period than Lemieux's in this example here.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Does Eichel dance around teams and make them look silly before dishing out a pass to March?

Yes, did you not watch him in last years playoffs?

 

[WalterLundy]

Lemieiux being 25 goals behind for his career compared to Gretzky from ages 19-30 in seasons 1979-1991 is a huge point in Lemieux's favor, thanks for posting. Timing is everything, Gretzky's prime overlapped perfectly with the highest scoring era in NHL history, and his goal scoring dropped off much more sharply than his comparables with the rise of butterfly goaltending.


League gpg was higher for Gretzky's time period than Lemieux's in this example here.

I’m glad that’s what you gathered from my posts. Thank goodness goals aren’t everything right? Although around the more deranged parts of this site they seem to be. Somebody has to provide data and value on this site so I like to take the initiative. If you’d like I could post the year by year even sample size assists and point totals but since I brightened your day as you focused in on one of the 17 career step by step goal comparisons that all favor Gretzky (a non goal scorer first) I’ll probably save it. Yes league G/GP was higher but even then his goals per game wouldn’t be “significantly higher” than Gretzky’s. That’s the whole point I was driving home with the other guy.

I could era adjust all of these as well since as you said “timing is everything” so it needs to be made more “fair”. Those would all still favor Gretzky with gaps as wide as the Grand Canyon. He’d have the points record in any era so that whole timing is everything thing is kind of silly to be honest. You actually believing that the level of Gretzky’s career greatness was dictated by timing and his decline by butterfly goaltending shows ignorance and/or hate. If you knew the context you’d know why his numbers took a massive hit after 1991. Although maybe you didn’t watch and weren’t old enough for 99 in his prime. If that’s the case then I get it but if not then it’s just glaring bias and championing your personal favorites.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I’m glad that’s what you gathered from my posts. Thank goodness goals aren’t everything right? Although around the more deranged parts of this site they seem to be. Somebody has to provide data and value on this site so I like to take the initiative. If you’d like I could post the year by year even sample size assists and point totals but since I brightened your day as you focused in on one of the 17 career step by step goal comparisons that all favor Gretzky (a non goal scorer first) I’ll probably save it. Yes league G/GP was higher but even then his goals per game wouldn’t be “significantly higher” than Gretzky’s. That’s the whole point I was driving home with the other guy.

I could era adjust all of these as well since as you said “timing is everything” so it needs to be made more “fair”. Those would all still favor Gretzky with gaps as wide as the Grand Canyon. He’d have the points record in any era so that whole timing is everything thing is kind of silly to be honest. You actually believing that the level of Gretzky’s career greatness was dictated by timing and his decline by butterfly goaltending shows ignorance and/or hate. If you knew the context you’d know why his numbers took a massive hit after 1991. Although maybe you didn’t watch and weren’t old enough for 99 in his prime. If that’s the case then I get it but if not then it’s just glaring bias and championing your personal favorites.

Im not going to disagree with Gretzky being the best ever, but as amazing as he was he did seem to lack the goalscoring tools to beat goalies as the game advanced. Like for example Crosby this past year at 37 scored more goals than any Gretzky season after age 28, and no one is claiming Crosby is the best goal scorer ever. Gretzky I believe also scored at about half his normal rate on Roy before the Suter hit, I don't have the time to research who all the other butterfly goalies were during that time period but feel free to do so, I'd be interested.

I also doubt I'm the only person who has noticed that so-called "Penguins fan" spends 90% of their posts praising McDavid and Gretzky.

 

[nturn06]

I wonder why did this thread turn into Gretzky vs Lemieux?

Is there any reason why every thread about an Oilers player accomplishment gets highjacked?

 

[WalterLundy]

Im not going to disagree with Gretzky being the best ever, but as amazing as he was he did seem to lack the goalscoring tools to beat goalies as the game advanced. Like for example Crosby this past year at 37 scored more goals than any Gretzky season after age 28, and no one is claiming Crosby is the best goal scorer ever. Gretzky I believe also scored at about half his normal rate on Roy before the Suter hit, I don't have the time to research who all the other butterfly goalies were during that time period but feel free to do so, I'd be interested.

I also doubt I'm the only person who has noticed that so-called "Penguins fan" spends 90% of their posts praising McDavid and Gretzky.

So the last part I actually get as a valid observation. I do praise Gretzky and McDavid because conversations usually find their way back to them and understandably so. Lemieux is easily the second best player I’ve ever seen and I’ve gotten to see him hundreds of times but I also did get to see Gretzky many times as well and in prime. This was also when I got into hockey. Gretzky was just a cut above and I know that you aren’t disputing his standing as best but back then I was blown away and unlike many fans where I’m from I give him his due and rate him where he should be. With that said McDavid is the third best I’ve seen and he is very relevant these days so it’s also understandable I post about him as well.

Trust me I’m a pens guy I’ve gotten to know Lemieux coaching youth hockey here in the late 2000s and I’ve been a season ticket holder for a while. Also don’t mean to call your hockey knowledge completely into question so my bad on that part. But yeah definitely not a so called pens fan here I can assure you.

 

[sanscosm]

Im not going to disagree with Gretzky being the best ever, but as amazing as he was he did seem to lack the goalscoring tools to beat goalies as the game advanced. Like for example Crosby this past year at 37 scored more goals than any Gretzky season after age 28, and no one is claiming Crosby is the best goal scorer ever. Gretzky I believe also scored at about half his normal rate on Roy before the Suter hit, I don't have the time to research who all the other butterfly goalies were during that time period but feel free to do so, I'd be interested.

I also doubt I'm the only person who has noticed that so-called "Penguins fan" spends 90% of their posts praising McDavid and Gretzky.

Alter Lundy? Nah, couldn't be. Same with that new Ma1k1n account. Ok back to the lurk. Gonna go read some more trap jesus posts on nhl reddit.

 

[WalterLundy]

Alter Lundy? Nah, couldn't be. Same with that new Ma1k1n account. Ok back to the lurk. Gonna go read some more trap jesus posts on nhl reddit.

Godspeed buddy. 4 posts too many.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I’m glad that’s what you gathered from my posts. Thank goodness goals aren’t everything right? Although around the more deranged parts of this site they seem to be. Somebody has to provide data and value on this site so I like to take the initiative. If you’d like I could post the year by year even sample size assists and point totals but since I brightened your day as you focused in on one of the 17 career step by step goal comparisons that all favor Gretzky (a non goal scorer first) I’ll probably save it. Yes league G/GP was higher but even then his goals per game wouldn’t be “significantly higher” than Gretzky’s. That’s the whole point I was driving home with the other guy.

I could era adjust all of these as well since as you said “timing is everything” so it needs to be made more “fair”. Those would all still favor Gretzky with gaps as wide as the Grand Canyon. He’d have the points record in any era so that whole timing is everything thing is kind of silly to be honest. You actually believing that the level of Gretzky’s career greatness was dictated by timing and his decline by butterfly goaltending shows ignorance and/or hate. If you knew the context you’d know why his numbers took a massive hit after 1991. Although maybe you didn’t watch and weren’t old enough for 99 in his prime. If that’s the case then I get it but if not then it’s just glaring bias and championing your personal favorites.

Averaging 61 goals per 82 is significantly better than averaging 49. And if you start using adjusted stats it will favour Lemieux further.

Again though, I appreciate what you wrote. You could definitely look at this through a different lense.

 

[authentic]

Gretzky and Lemieux were pretty equal peak goal scorers. Lemieux quite clearly was much better against more advanced goaltending, regardless of age or injuries for either of them. Edge Lemieux for goal scoring only, not really much question there.

 

[WalterLundy]

Averaging 61 goals per 82 is significantly better than averaging 49. And if you start using adjusted stats it will favour Lemieux further.

Again though, I appreciate what you wrote. You could definitely look at this through a different lense.

Funny enough the 12 goal per 82 holds up when adjusted (from what I’ve done) but in any event we have already hashed out all of it and why we view it the way we do.

For what it’s worth the 85-93 and 80-88 Gretzky samples adjusted work out to 55 goals per 82 for both (Even strength/powerplay/shorthanded G/GP adjustment). They are very comparable goal scorers. Gretzky playing longer hurts him but even sample size they are very very comparable depending on how you look at it as strictly goal scorers. I think both ways of looking at it are fair. Peak: Gretzky, even sample size: Gretzky but close either way if adjusted, longevity: Lemieux is how I see it.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I like the updated "(he did it)" in the title, haha. Very understated.

Congrats to McDavid, love seeing him knock down years-old records. I wish more people were able to just enjoy him in this prime mode.

 

[CanadienShark]

But they weren't implemented anywhere near to the extent they are today and a lot of D were coke cans back then coming out of the 80s were no one played any D.

It's not really until like the later half of the 90s that actual defensive structure and goaltending started to evolve a lot.



This is a high level playoff game 7 from 1991, look at some of the goals Mike Vernon is allowing here (lol), look at the defense ... it's atrocious if we're being honest. Gap control for D is apparently entirely optional, D just falling down and flopping on the ice and giving up a breakaway with 30 seconds left in a tie game 7 lol. Extremely entertaining though sure, the game was more fun to watch back then.

D-men controller disconnected. Wtf are they even doing there aside from hoping on an off chance that the puck hits them?