Player Discussion Marner Talk

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Saros

Rachel Dorrie had something it seems

 

[MCR74]

Not a troll wtf, my reaction was instant, I was listening to the press conference on the radio that day , live. Without video and just listening it sounded very condescending. Additionally I have been one of Marner’s biggest supporters on these boards. At the end of the day I think he could have chosen way better words to describe what he was talking about

If ir's any consolation to him, l don't think he's a god, especially after another playoff no-show.

 

[William Johnson]

As we look ahead to the summer and a possible Marner trade, I am hoping to hear from some of the veteran posters who have been around since Marner's last contract negotiations. I think a reassessment of what happened last time out might inform what happens this time, although I'm beginning to think his departure has effectively already been decided. Even so, I'm pretty fuzzy on a few things so am hoping for some thoughts and clarifications since the past is bound to be dredged up a fair bit in the coming days. So, I'll try to present what I recall being published/discussed at the time and offer some opinions about whether it might be relevant to what is about to happen. Full disclosure: I was appalled by the 10.893 number when it happened and he never really won me over in the years that followed so I'd like to see him gone soon. I'm pleased that most pundits seem to be saying they'd also like to see it and think it will happen. Fingers crossed.

First issue: What did Dubas offer him before his final RFA year? I've seen epic arguments here for years on this issue, which indicates there's no published proof that he actually did (or maybe there is and I've just forgotten) and what the number would have been. But, I always agreed with the logic behind the speculation that it's a given that even a half-witted GM would make an offer of some sort, surely. I don't think Dubas was so incompetent not to at least reach out with something to start things rolling. Therefore, is it fair to assume that Marner's camp rejected Dubas' initial offer, whatever it was? The point is, whatever the offer was, Treliving knows what happened. I suspect this would likely be one reason to tell Marner's camp he won't be offered a new deal here since he didn't take what was likely to have been a very generous, reasonable offer six years ago, because he wanted to wait and see what Matthews got.

Second issue: Darren Ferris: His tactics and public statements are a matter of record. One nagging issue for me has long been the supposed offer sheets Ferris claimed in the press Marner received. I haven't seen anyone outside of Marner's camp as a confirmed source for this. Is it possible Ferris invented these and they never actually existed? I've looked into this and had some private conversations here about it without anyone being able to reliably provide a source other than Ferris and Marner himself making this claim. Given my own professional experience with agents doing things exactly like this during contract negotiations (albeit decades ago), I've always thought it smelled a bit fishy. Again, Treliving will likely know the truth of it and it might feed into how he would deal with Marner and Ferris this time out.

I have some other thoughts but I'll leave it there as this post is already long-winded enough. Thanks in advance for any replies.

 

[mikeyz]

I'm not done with Marner like I am JT. I can see Marner putting up 100 points next season on a revamped 2nd line. He put up 85 in 69 games. He has the capability to be a star player still. JT is cooked. He's getting PP1 time and easier matchups and only putting up 60ish

Who cares? He does f*** all in the playoffs

 

[MCR74]

Who cares? He does f*** all in the playoffs

This + 1000. Once the cheques stop coming in, so does Marner.

 

[Gabriel426]

You make the 1st bolded statement and end with the 2nd.
Your 2nd statement may be correct but it may not. I think we probably are going to be worse without Marner.

It’s just my opinion, normally I’d say well we will see but it won’t get to that next season because Mitch will still be here. Again just my opinion. lol!

Worse without MM and missing the playoffs are two completely different things though.
No doubt he is a talented player but it is just not the right mix.
Personally, I would even trade AM if there is a good package out there.

 

[centipede2233]

Marner would be best to leave, he is really hated. His god comment is the cherry on top of a disdained marner sundae

 

[Gabriel426]

One thing that I don’t understand is the fact that making playoffs is not the be all end all.
Winning the Cup is the be all end all.
Some here think it is horrible to miss the playoffs, I get it that we didn’t make the playoffs for so many years before our current run but at this point, would it really be horrible to play at most 7 more games in the season?
I am not saying let’s blow it up and rebuild but we need different players as our current group just can’t get it done.

 

[MCR74]

One thing that I don’t understand is the fact that making playoffs is not the be all end all.
Winning the Cup is the be all end all.
Some here think it is horrible to miss the playoffs, I get it that we didn’t make the playoffs for so many years before our current run but at this point, would it really be horrible to play at most 7 more games in the season?
I am not saying let’s blow it up and rebuild but we need different players as our current group just can’t get it done.

You said it.

 

[seanlinden]

Maybe, but I dont think so.

JT and AM are both quiet players. On ice, interviews, watching them talk to refs between whistles, they show zero fire.

That's not to say maybe in the locker room they are jeckyll and hyde and become super motivating players. But I dont see it.

Based on that, if I had a chocie between them I'd put AM captain over JT. At least AM (quiet or not) can lead by example scoring and leading the team in pts. JT is on major decline, pts dropping and he's no Mark Messier showing leadership from what I see.

AM doesn't need to ahve the C to Lead by example... there's literally no benefit to him, or the team in doing so.

The "Example" JT sets, is basically that of a "eat, sleep, workout, hockey, repeat" which is what they want emparted upon the younger players entering this team. The captaincy is also a burden, so might as well not create that distraction for Matthews.

 

[seanlinden]

then why would ovi and crosby and mcdavid etc etc be given the captaincy?

Somebody needs to be captain; and in the case of Crosby & McDavid, they're proably much better "in room" Leaders than Matthews is.

With respect to Ovechkin, I'd suggest that he also wasn't neccessarily the "ideal" captain, especially at the time, but they were kind of in a situation where they had to name him captain because it would have been a question of "what is wrong with Ovechkin that he's not your obvious choice for captain?".

With Toronto, you don't really have that problem until you move Tavares... and even then... Morgan Rielly is still a reasonable choice.

 

[Gabriel426]

AM doesn't need to ahve the C to Lead by example... there's literally no benefit to him, or the team in doing so.

The "Example" JT sets, is basically that of a "eat, sleep, workout, hockey, repeat" which is what they want emparted upon the younger players entering this team. The captaincy is also a burden, so might as well not create that distraction for Matthews.

Before I think Reilly should be Capt but if Domi resigns, let him be Capt.
Domi got the mentality and the PR skills to be Capt. Plus he will always rally the troops

 

[seanlinden]

Before I think Reilly should be Capt but if Domi resigns, let him be Capt.
Domi got the mentality and the PR skills to be Capt. Plus he will always rally the troops

Domi is a guy that has worn out his welcome on 6 teams in a pretty short amount of time. He's not anywhere near a consideration for a leadership role.

 

[djdev]

Somebody needs to be captain; and in the case of Crosby & McDavid, they're proably much better "in room" Leaders than Matthews is.

With respect to Ovechkin, I'd suggest that he also wasn't neccessarily the "ideal" captain, especially at the time, but they were kind of in a situation where they had to name him captain because it would have been a question of "what is wrong with Ovechkin that he's not your obvious choice for captain?".

With Toronto, you don't really have that problem until you move Tavares... and even then... Morgan Rielly is still a reasonable choice.

you are making alot of assumptions in this reply.
we arent in the room, we dont know what type of leader or how vocal anyone is. typically you have a heart and soul guy(clark) or your best player(sundin) as your captain. we dont have the former on this team at the moment. in some lucky cases we had captains that were both like gilmour or salming, but even then they would be considered our best player.

 

[Antropovsky]

Paul would never approve a pay cut.

He might... but I'd be willing to bet he would try to make it on their terms. He keeps an A, plays with Matthews. They announce he took a team friendly discount "to win".

The possibility of always beinf recognized amongst the Leaf greats and having a banner in the building has to be very enticing, especially for Paul. I'm sure it's his dream. Not to mention the continued development of the Marner Assist Foundation... which employs the entire family. What are they going to do if that disappears? Get real jobs? Marner gonna hand them money out of his paycheck? I'm sure the foundation and post career opportunities in Toronto provide an opportunity to continue to make alot of money after retirement at the young age of 37ish. Not to mention all the endorsement deals, his businesses (he just opened a restaurant with Kevin Oleary), the God like treatment... people talk about the tax issues, however his foundation could be a 40-40% write offs for taxes I read.

Imagine whether it would mean to have a statue of yourself?

He accepts 10 million, all the above still is a possibilty and hes now the "good guy" without the huge pressure. He also gets an 8th year... which is huge because there are incredible risks to trying to prove yourself without Matthews or taking just 7 years. Tavares for example, would've had another year at 11 mill at least (San Jose was rumored to be 13+ per year). Now people are saying 5-6mill on his next contract, which would've been his 8th year.

Though if I'm Toronto, I move him pretty much no matter what.

 

[Gabriel426]

Domi is a guy that has worn out his welcome on 6 teams in a pretty short amount of time. He's not anywhere near a consideration for a leadership role.

Well maybe he had grown up. You look at all the interviews this season, he has been saying all the right things and he showed more heart and passion than any of the Leafs.

 

[Confucius]

Worse without MM and missing the playoffs are two completely different things though.
No doubt he is a talented player but it is just not the right mix.
Personally, I would even trade AM if there is a good package out there.

Sure technically you are correct but if you look at the regulation wins, we had 1 more than Washington which got the last wildcard spot. Sure we had 3 more regulation wins than the Islanders but they played in the metro and finished 3rd. We got a handful of points by going to OT. If we were just a little worse we could have missed them last season. We aren’t as good as many believe, we would have missed the playoffs with a few bad bounces and a couple of more posts. So yeah if we didn’t have Mitch last season we could have missed.

 

[Kazparov]

As we look ahead to the summer and a possible Marner trade, I am hoping to hear from some of the veteran posters who have been around since Marner's last contract negotiations. I think a reassessment of what happened last time out might inform what happens this time, although I'm beginning to think his departure has effectively already been decided. Even so, I'm pretty fuzzy on a few things so am hoping for some thoughts and clarifications since the past is bound to be dredged up a fair bit in the coming days. So, I'll try to present what I recall being published/discussed at the time and offer some opinions about whether it might be relevant to what is about to happen. Full disclosure: I was appalled by the 10.893 number when it happened and he never really won me over in the years that followed so I'd like to see him gone soon. I'm pleased that most pundits seem to be saying they'd also like to see it and think it will happen. Fingers crossed.

First issue: What did Dubas offer him before his final RFA year? I've seen epic arguments here for years on this issue, which indicates there's no published proof that he actually did (or maybe there is and I've just forgotten) and what the number would have been. But, I always agreed with the logic behind the speculation that it's a given that even a half-witted GM would make an offer of some sort, surely. I don't think Dubas was so incompetent not to at least reach out with something to start things rolling. Therefore, is it fair to assume that Marner's camp rejected Dubas' initial offer, whatever it was? The point is, whatever the offer was, Treliving knows what happened. I suspect this would likely be one reason to tell Marner's camp he won't be offered a new deal here since he didn't take what was likely to have been a very generous, reasonable offer six years ago, because he wanted to wait and see what Matthews got.

Second issue: Darren Ferris: His tactics and public statements are a matter of record. One nagging issue for me has long been the supposed offer sheets Ferris claimed in the press Marner received. I haven't seen anyone outside of Marner's camp as a confirmed source for this. Is it possible Ferris invented these and they never actually existed? I've looked into this and had some private conversations here about it without anyone being able to reliably provide a source other than Ferris and Marner himself making this claim. Given my own professional experience with agents doing things exactly like this during contract negotiations (albeit decades ago), I've always thought it smelled a bit fishy. Again, Treliving will likely know the truth of it and it might feed into how he would deal with Marner and Ferris this time out.

I have some other thoughts but I'll leave it there as this post is already long-winded enough. Thanks in advance for any replies.

IIRC the Marner camp wanted 8x8 the year before and Dubas said no.

There was no evidence of an offer sheet but it was talked about. Should have taken 5 first rounders and laughed.

 

[MCR74]

He might... but I'd be willing to bet he would try to make it on their terms. He keeps an A, plays with Matthews. They announce he took a team friendly discount "to win".

The possibility of always beinf recognized amongst the Leaf greats and having a banner in the building has to be very enticing, especially for Paul. I'm sure it's his dream. Not to mention the continued development of the Marner Assist Foundation... which employs the entire family. What are they going to do if that disappears? Get real jobs? Marner gonna hand them money out of his paycheck? I'm sure the foundation and post career opportunities in Toronto provide an opportunity to continue to make alot of money after retirement at the young age of 37ish. Not to mention all the endorsement deals, his businesses (he just opened a restaurant with Kevin Oleary), the God like treatment... people talk about the tax issues, however his foundation could be a 40-40% write offs for taxes I read.

Imagine whether it would mean to have a statue of yourself?

He accepts 10 million, all the above still is a possibilty and hes now the "good guy" without the huge pressure. He also gets an 8th year... which is huge because there are incredible risks to trying to prove yourself without Matthews or taking just 7 years. Tavares for example, would've had another year at 11 mill at least (San Jose was rumored to be 13+ per year). Now people are saying 5-6mill on his next contract, which would've been his 8th year.

Though if I'm Toronto, I move him pretty much no matter what.

The hiccup with that scenario is Marner would have to help them win.

 

[Gabriel426]

Sure technically you are correct but if you look at the regulation wins, we had 1 more than Washington which got the last wildcard spot. Sure we had 3 more regulation wins than the Islanders but they played in the metro and finished 3rd. We got a handful of points by going to OT. If we were just a little worse we could have missed them last season. We aren’t as good as many believe, we would have missed the playoffs with a few bad bounces and a couple of more posts. So yeah if we didn’t have Mitch last season we could have missed.

1. If MM is traded even for future draft picks, that’s 11mil cap space that can be use toward getting player or players. Unless they are all Klingberg who gets injured and can’t play 5-10 games in. They will be contributing to Leafs, most likely making the team more balance.
2. What if we missed the playoffs and ends up with the 1st overall pick? Or just missed the playoffs? Who cares, bc our season is only at most 7 games more than teams that don’t make the playoffs.
3. MM or any other players are just players, they are all replaceable. We are not a team that making the playoffs is our Stanley Cup. Boston lost their Capt and 2C and end up having a better regular season records than us and beating us in the playoffs. Islanders lost their Capt and went to two straight ECFs.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I think you would have to count on another team thinking that a) just making the playoffs would be a good first step. Think Ottawa, Detroit and Buffalo for example of teams who fail to even be at the Leafs level. And b) you think of a team with other strengths that feels like Marner could be well supported to be more useful to them than us. Like the Islanders or something.

There is always a GM that wants to rehabilitate a player and look smarter than everyone by getting a steal of a deal. Look how many times Dubas tried it with guys that had several chances with other teams (Gally, Vesey etc..) let alone a guy like MM who is still producing points.

 

[MCR74]

1. If MM is traded even for future draft picks, that’s 11mil cap space that can be use toward getting player or players. Unless they are all Klingberg who gets injured and can’t play 5-10 games in. They will be contributing to Leafs, most likely making the team more balance.
2. What if we missed the playoffs and ends up with the 1st overall pick? Or just missed the playoffs? Who cares, bc our season is only at most 7 games more than teams that don’t make the playoffs.
3. MM or any other players are just players, they are all replaceable. We are not a team that making the playoffs is our Stanley Cup. Boston lost their Capt and 2C and end up having a better regular season records than us and beating us in the playoffs. Islanders lost their Capt and went to two straight ECFs.

#3 for me. Marner is not irreplaceable, especially at his salary.

 

[notDatsyuk]

JT is definately tradable if he waived. Pay his big bonus July 1 and he’s owed peanuts in real dollars. Leafs just retain 3 millish to help out.

If we retain 3 that still leaves a cap hit of 8 for a fading 3C.

 

[notDatsyuk]

so the new excuse to not trade Tavares is no one would want him even if we retained and he's only owed less than 1m in salary

but even though teams with tons of cap space wouldn't want him we still have to re-sign him so he can completely kill off our window to win a cup because he wants to come back , forget what's best for the team , it's all about making Johnny happy

We don't have to re-sign him.

 

[Antropovsky]

The hiccup with that scenario is Marner would have to help them win.

Exactly why I'd move him.