Mario Lemieux 1983-1984

[JFA87-66-99]

Everyone knows Mario put up ridiculous numbers his final season in the qmjhl. 70gp-133g-149a-282pts. One of the most dominant statistical seasons in hockey history. My question is though, what would it take for a player in today's game to equal or top Mario's season in statistical terms? Obviously for a player to average 4 points a game in the Ohl, Qmjhl, or Whl today is almost impossible, but what kinda stats would it take to challenge Lemieux'a 282 point season? I can't even remember the last time a junior player flirted with 200 points. I'll look forward to your responses guys.

 

[Treb]

Lemieux had 2.01 times the productions of the next non-teammate.

That would have translated to 257 points to Connor Garland 128 pts in 2015-2016 QMJHL.

There has been 10 200+ pts season in the QMJHL, the last one being Patrice Lefebvre in 1987-1988. There were only 2 250+ pts season (Lemieux and Larouche).

The highest since 2006-2007 (last 10 years) was Connor Garland in 2014-2015 with 129 pts.

The last one to break 150 points was Radulov in 2005-2006.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

Thanks for yout input. Thats a good way to look at it

 

[RandV]

Lemieux had 2.01 times the productions of the next non-teammate.

That would have translated to 257 points to Connor Garland 128 pts in 2015-2016 QMJHL.

There has been 10 200+ pts season in the QMJHL, the last one being Patrice Lefebvre in 1987-1988. There were only 2 250+ pts season (Lemieux and Larouche).

The highest since 2006-2007 (last 10 years) was Connor Garland in 2014-2015 with 129 pts.

The last one to break 150 points was Radulov in 2005-2006.

These two statements kind of contradict each other. Mario was special, but if other players were posting up numbers that haven't been matched for 3 decades then there's certainly an inflation factor here and it's a bit more complex than just looking at the next highest scoring non-teammate that year.

And for the point totals you're forgetting about Crosby: 62-66-102-168. For the topic question that's a pretty good bench mark to start with, as Crosby is the best player to come out of the QMJHL since Lemieux.

 

[JackSlater]

Something to keep in mind is that Pat Lafontaine had 234 points the year before in his 18 year old season. Lemieux was obviously an outlier, but not by as ridiculous an amount as the raw point total makes it seem.

Anyway, to take a very basic approach, I am going to consider the QMJHL of Lemieux's era and today's QMJHL. For the sake of simplicity, I am going to consider the QMJHL today as similar in strength to the QMJHL of the past. The QMJHL today benefits from increased talent via Europe and the United States, but I also suspect that the talent produced by Quebec today isn't quite as strong as what Quebec produced in Lemieux's time. I am also looking to remove outliers, so I will compare Lemieux's point total to the point total of the fifth best scorer from Lemieux's season and the fifth best scorers from the two seasons before and after that season. For today's player I will look at the fifth best scorer from this year (extrapolating ppg) and the fifth best scorers from the past two seasons.

Average point total for fifth highest scorer 1982-1986 = 143

Average point total for fifth highest scorer 2015-2017 (extrapolating 2017 based on current ppg) = 95

Lemieux scored at a pace 1.97 times the average fifth place scorer from 1982-1986. If we apply that same ratio to the fifth highest scorer from 2015-2017, then Lemieux's ratio is equivalent to 1.97*95 = ~187.

So, while this is all pretty rudimentary (selecting the fifth best scorer arbitrarily, assuming that the QMJHL is of similar strength today etc.) I think that the number (187 points) is actually somewhat reasonable.

 

[Fantomas]

Does anyone have good highlights of Mario in his junior days? Is most of the footage lost?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Does anyone have good highlights of Mario in his junior days? Is most of the footage lost?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Up-_w06G9bc

 

[Plastic Joseph]

The best part of this is that Lemieux refused to play at the WJC (an event he played in the year prior) because he wanted to break Lafleur's goal record.

Can you imagine if McDavid was like "nah I just wannt beat Crosby's point total and not play in the WJC" in today's world?

 

[phxblue]

The best part of this is that Lemieux refused to play at the WJC (an event he played in the year prior) because he wanted to break Lafleur's goal record.

Can you imagine if McDavid was like "nah I just wannt beat Crosby's point total and not play in the WJC" in today's world?

Matthews got hated on by many for wanting to play in Europe to challenge himself. Which I respect and admire. I can't imagine how hated McDavid would be if he did what Lemiuex did.

 

[biotk]

The best part of this is that Lemieux refused to play at the WJC (an event he played in the year prior) because he wanted to break Lafleur's goal record.

I would say the chance at the record was only a small part of the reason. Lemieux was extremely bitter at the way he had been treated in 83 - and he should have been.

"Lemieux played for last year’s Canadian national junior team, which was coached by defense-oriented Dave King. Lemieux scored 11 points in the first four games of the world junior tournament, but King, seeking more checking, benched him for the last three games. Lemieux fumed. “After that, Mario said, ‘I will never play for him again,’” says Robert Bousquet, who covers the Quebec league for Montreal’s la Presse. “King has said he doesn’t like Lemieux because he thinks too much offensively.”"

King liked players like Kirk Muller, and Muller (1984's 2nd overall draft pick) not only played for Canada at the 84 World Juniors (Canada didn't medal), but was also on the Dave King coached 84 Canadian Olympic team (which also didn't medal) which despite having 3 future 1984 first-round draft picks, King refused to even invite Lemieux to try out (an invitation that Lemieux would have undoubtedly declined due to King).

 

[Plastic Joseph]

I would say the chance at the record was only a small part of the reason. Lemieux was extremely bitter at the way he had been treated in 83 - and he should have been.

"Lemieux played for last year’s Canadian national junior team, which was coached by defense-oriented Dave King. Lemieux scored 11 points in the first four games of the world junior tournament, but King, seeking more checking, benched him for the last three games. Lemieux fumed. “After that, Mario said, ‘I will never play for him again,’†says Robert Bousquet, who covers the Quebec league for Montreal’s la Presse. “King has said he doesn’t like Lemieux because he thinks too much offensively.â€"

King liked players like Kirk Muller, and Muller (1984's 2nd overall draft pick) not only played for Canada at the 84 World Juniors (Canada didn't medal), but was also on the Dave King coached 84 Canadian Olympic team (which also didn't medal) which despite having 3 future 1984 first-round draft picks, King refused to even invite Lemieux to try out (an invitation that Lemieux would have undoubtedly declined due to King).

In the biography I read it said both were his reasons, although he did not let on publicly that the record was that important. He had been told by his agent if he broke Lafeur's record he would get him a million dollar contract as a rookie, which still sddn't happen if I remember correctly.

 

[Claypool]

The best part of this is that Lemieux refused to play at the WJC (an event he played in the year prior) because he wanted to break Lafleur's goal record.

Can you imagine if McDavid was like "nah I just wannt beat Crosby's point total and not play in the WJC" in today's world?

Can you imagine if McDavid refused to put on the Oilers jersey on draft day and didn't want to go to the stage?

 

[biotk]

In the biography I read it said both were his reasons, although he did not let on publicly that the record was that important. He had been told by his agent if he broke Lafeur's record he would get him a million dollar contract as a rookie, which still sddn't happen if I remember correctly.

I know he was promised a million dollar contract, but I don't know if his agent said anything about breaking Lafleur's records.

Lemieux didn't get it (He got 750K over two years) although I am sure the agent could have got him a million plus contract if it was over 3 years. There was no way that the contract was going to be for a million a season as no player made that in any of Lemieux's first four seasons. Gretzky was only making $717K during Lemieux's third season (and oddly enough the highest paid player for Lemieux's first four seasons appears to be Dave Taylor - $725K, $775K, $825K and $900K according to the book "Playing for Dollars").

While I do not doubt that Lemieux wanted the record badly, I still think that spite was a bigger factor.

 

[alko]

Lemieux had 2.01 times the productions of the next non-teammate.

That would have translated to 257 points to Connor Garland 128 pts in 2015-2016 QMJHL.

There has been 10 200+ pts season in the QMJHL, the last one being Patrice Lefebvre in 1987-1988. There were only 2 250+ pts season (Lemieux and Larouche).

The highest since 2006-2007 (last 10 years) was Connor Garland in 2014-2015 with 129 pts.

The last one to break 150 points was Radulov in 2005-2006.

If someone will have at least 160 points, we have a new "Great One".
Question is, how could we translate it to goalies? What must a goalie have for a numbers, that he can be brought to this level?

 

[The Panther]

QMJHL was known as a high-scoring (low contact) League back then. The high scoring was true, but I'm not sure about the contact. It certainly made a lot of the Anglo-Canadian scouts and GMs undervalue the worth of high-talents coming out of it, as times (see: Mike Bossy).

Here are some of the leading scorers back in that time period:

1982
162 points - Claude Verret (14 games in the NHL)
152 points - Pierre Rioux (14 games in the NHL)
143 points - John Chabot (508 games in the NHL -- career-high 57 points in 1988)

1983
243 points - Pat Lafontaine (865 games in the NHL -- career-high 148 points in 1993)
188 points - Claude Verret
184 points - Mario Lemieux (915 games in the NHL -- career high 199 points in 1989)
163 points - Sylvain Turgeon (669 games in the NHL -- career high 79 points in 1986)

1984
282 points - Mario Lemieux
170 points - Jacques Goyette (didn't make the NHL)
140 points - Claude Gosselin (didn't make the NHL)

1985
163 points - Guy Roleau (didn't make the NHL)
160 points - Marc Damphousse (didn't make the NHL)
148 points - Luc Robitaille (1431 games in the NHL -- career high 125 points in 1993)

1986
191 points - Luc Robitaille
191 points - Guy Roleau
180 points - Michel Mongeau (54 games in the NHL)


So, yeah, Lemieux was basically scoring at will in 1983-84, but it doesn't look like the competition was all that strong. On the other hand, you pull a Luc Robitaille out of the herd as well... But man, looking at some of these lists, you can see why NHL scouts were somewhere wary of being awed by huge QMJHL stats. Call it the 'Guy Rouleau' effect.

 

[Big Phil]

The best part of this is that Lemieux refused to play at the WJC (an event he played in the year prior) because he wanted to break Lafleur's goal record.

Can you imagine if McDavid was like "nah I just wannt beat Crosby's point total and not play in the WJC" in today's world?

It was controversial then too. No one disputed Lemieux's ceiling or talent, but the idea was that a small minority of teams felt Muller was the "safer" pick in 1984. Lemieux was saddled with a poor attitude even before he was drafted.

I would say the chance at the record was only a small part of the reason. Lemieux was extremely bitter at the way he had been treated in 83 - and he should have been.

"Lemieux played for last year’s Canadian national junior team, which was coached by defense-oriented Dave King. Lemieux scored 11 points in the first four games of the world junior tournament, but King, seeking more checking, benched him for the last three games. Lemieux fumed. “After that, Mario said, ‘I will never play for him again,’†says Robert Bousquet, who covers the Quebec league for Montreal’s la Presse. “King has said he doesn’t like Lemieux because he thinks too much offensively.â€"

King liked players like Kirk Muller, and Muller (1984's 2nd overall draft pick) not only played for Canada at the 84 World Juniors (Canada didn't medal), but was also on the Dave King coached 84 Canadian Olympic team (which also didn't medal) which despite having 3 future 1984 first-round draft picks, King refused to even invite Lemieux to try out (an invitation that Lemieux would have undoubtedly declined due to King).

This might be an example of a coach being disastrous. Dave King probably should have realized what he had. Lemieux scored 4 goals in a game in the 1983 WJC. You just simply let a guy like that play because he'll benefit your team. King I always felt was a coach who seemed to like to put his stamp of approval on games.

 

[Big Phil]

Brad Richards had 186 points in 2000 and Simon Gamache had 184 in 2001. Both were in their final year of junior and for whatever reason Gamache didn't pan out. Richards truly looked like a gem I thought. He was just dominant that year, even in the Memorial Cup. That being said, 186 is still a long ways from 282.

The only comparison I can think of that is anywhere near was Crosby in 2005. He had 168 points in 62 games. Excelled in a gold medal performance for Canada at the WJC and dominated in the QMJHL playoffs and then the Memorial Cup. He didn't win it, only thanks to the London Knights - probably the best team in junior hockey history - beating him. I think the hype was tremendous for him, although still slightly less than Lemieux.

McDavid himself had an eye popping final year of junior too. It was plagued a bit by injury by getting into a fight but 120 points in 47 games (49 playoff points in 20 games) is quite eye catching as well. It would have been nice to see him take a healthy run at the OHL points record (192 Bobby Smith). Still a longshot but I think if he breaks that record then you may have put his season on par with Mario's.

 

[The Panther]

Question: Was Lafontaine's 243 points the most in QMJHL history at the time?

 

[Neutrinos]

Question: Was Lafontaine's 243 points the most in QMJHL history at the time?

No, Pierre Larouche had 251 points in 1974

 

[Trap Jesus]

Does anyone know if there was a story behind the only pointless game Lemieux had that season?

https://theqmjhl.ca/gamecentre/10354/preview

He recorded at least a point in 69 of his 70 regular season games, as well as all 14 playoff games (along with the last 3 playoff games he played in 1983 if you want to tack that on). He only had 10 1-point games out of those 84 games as well, so it's a pretty big outlier. His name doesn't appear in any of the play-by-play events, but obviously the stat-keeping was much more bare bones back then.

 

[daver]

Crosby's 04/05 season was pretty close. He was about 62% better than the average of the Top 3 leading scorers during that era of the Q vs. Mario being 78% better than the average leading scorers during that era of the Q.

Crosby was also 10 months younger.

 

[Gambitman]

All this talk and we are forgetting Mario’s linemate Rob Brown has 212 points playing for Kamploops.

 

[Big Phil]

All this talk and we are forgetting Mario’s linemate Rob Brown has 212 points playing for Kamploops.

Not in his draft year though. However, in his draft year in 1986 he had a whopping 173. Yet went 67th overall for some reason. He wasn't big, or physical, but that is still surprising he was drafted that low.

The only player in WHL history if I recall who has had a 100+ goal season was Ray Ferraro. Although it was his last year of junior when he did it.

I honestly thought there was a chance, even just a smidgen of a chance that McDavid could have broken the OHL scoring record of 192 points by Bobby Smith in 2015. 120 points in 47 games is unreal. That's a 174 point season if he doesn't get hurt in that fight and if he doesn't go to the World Juniors. However, even if he plays for Canada there is a good chance the OHL changes some games in the schedule so that the Erie Otters don't play too many games over the Christmas break. They did this in Rimouski in 2005 for Crosby, which is why he only missed 3-4 games. I saw McDavid in his draft year and he was simply that good and worth the price of admission to watch.

 

[daver]

Not in his draft year though. However, in his draft year in 1986 he had a whopping 173. Yet went 67th overall for some reason. He wasn't big, or physical, but that is still surprising he was drafted that low.

The only player in WHL history if I recall who has had a 100+ goal season was Ray Ferraro. Although it was his last year of junior when he did it.

I honestly thought there was a chance, even just a smidgen of a chance that McDavid could have broken the OHL scoring record of 192 points by Bobby Smith in 2015. 120 points in 47 games is unreal. That's a 174 point season if he doesn't get hurt in that fight and if he doesn't go to the World Juniors. However, even if he plays for Canada there is a good chance the OHL changes some games in the schedule so that the Erie Otters don't play too many games over the Christmas break. They did this in Rimouski in 2005 for Crosby, which is why he only missed 3-4 games. I saw McDavid in his draft year and he was simply that good and worth the price of admission to watch.

Crosby missed 8 games on both of his Q seasons. Crosby's draft year pro-rated out to 190 points.

 

[Big Phil]

Crosby missed 8 games on both of his Q seasons. Crosby's draft year pro-rated out to 190 points.

I don't know why he missed the other games, could be a nagging injury. You'd have to look at the schedule for that season. I remember very clearly the QMJHL schedule makers adjusted the schedule while he was gone for the WJCs so that when Rimouski was away the home team wouldn't miss Crosby playing in their barn. I know this still meant they had to play SOME games over that time, but they minimized it.