Confirmed with Link: Mann, Bowness (not that one) hired as AGM

[Golden_Jet]

Do we need an analytics team? The Sens already get their advanced stats from the company that collects them for most teams.

This team does value analytics on the coaching side of things, DJ has been pretty clear about that.

As far as pro scouting goes, we’ll have to see how much Bowness does, if we’re ever party to that information.

Are you suggesting a separate group of people that comb the league looking at advanced stats? Seems like they should have a pro scout who does that, that would make sense to me.

Ideally all pro scouts would consider advanced stats in their evaluations, and perhaps they do/will (new hires), but advanced stats have limited predictive value in the NHL so I’m not sure a ‘team’ is necessary, given that the data is already collected by an outside entity.

Ya teams pay about $150,000 each to sporlogiq for the analytics, which is way more than is available publicly.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Ya teams pay about $150,000 each to sport logic, for the analytics, which is way more than is available publicly.

Right, that’s the name of the business. Seems most teams use them.

 

[JungleBeat]

No chance Dorion knows how to interpret the data that’s available to him. This team definitely needs some sort of advanced stats group. Hiring the communications guy as a data analyst isn’t going to cut it smh.

 

[JD1]

Right, that’s the name of the business. Seems most teams use them.

Having data and making good use of it are different though. I think all teams can access that data but I suspect there's a wide range in how it is used.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Having data and making good use of it are different though. I think all teams can access that data but I suspect there's a wide range in how it is used.

Yes all teams have access, they pay 150-200k for it. Some CHL teams use it as well.

Hockey – Sportlogiq

sportlogiq.com

They get updates at the end of each period, on the data they’ve requested beforehand, as well as daily.
Sportsnet and TSN also use the info during games.
I recall Troy Mann saying on his weekly hits, how useful it is.

 

[R2010]

Ya teams pay about $150,000 each to sporlogiq for the analytics, which is way more than is available publicly.

Its not really just what is paid but rather whether the info is used. Draft analytics would be something the sens should strongly consider using in the later rounds.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Having data and making good use of it are different though. I think all teams can access that data but I suspect there's a wide range in how it is used.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I personally think that it has its best applications as an assessment aid, as opposed to a predictive tool, unless the predictions are being based on the same set of variables.

I imagine that it is used to fortify the eye test, as well as to provide quick numbers for players to digest post game.

I wouldn’t want to rely heavily on them for player drafting or pro acquisitions.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

No chance Dorion knows how to interpret the data that’s available to him. This team definitely needs some sort of advanced stats group. Hiring the communications guy as a data analyst isn’t going to cut it smh.

Holy f*** do people try hard to make up shit.

Do you really think the scout genius cannot interpret analytics?

 

[Knave]

Holy f*** do people try hard to make up shit.

Do you really think the scout genius cannot interpret analytics?

I think he thinks he can.

 

[God Says No]

Didn't read the whole thread, but who's taking over the head of scouting from Mann?

 

[edguy]

Didn't read the whole thread, but who's taking over the head of scouting from Mann?

Amateur scouting Mann, Pro Scouting Bowness from what I can gather.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Amateur scouting Mann, Pro Scouting Bowness from what I can gather.

See NHL.com Sens promote Trent Mann, hire Ryan Bowness as assistant general managers
Mann continues in his current role and takes on some development responsivities as AGM
Bowness takes on contracts and GM of Belleville Sens.

 

[God Says No]

See NHL.com Sens promote Trent Mann, hire Ryan Bowness as assistant general managers
Mann continues in his current role and takes on some development responsivities as AGM
Bowness takes on contracts and GM of Belleville Sens.

That's a bit disappointing. I was hoping Mann/Bowness would have a say as well in all GM dealings just to get another whisper in Dorion's ear.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

That's a bit disappointing. I was hoping Mann/Bowness would have a say as well in all GM dealings just to get another whisper in Dorion's ear.

I'd think they'd still be sounding boards for him. If not, then we're screwed.

 

[scallionjj11]

I've met Ryan a few times now, always seemed like a good dude.

 

[BloodRedArmy]

Holy f*** do people try hard to make up shit.

Do you really think the scout genius cannot interpret analytics?

I know I'm on an island, but FFS, both Mann and Dorion, to me, are middle of the pack scouts. A few hits, lots of misses. Nothing "genius" about it.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I know I'm on an island, but FFS, both Mann and Dorion, to me, are middle of the pack scouts. A few hits, lots of misses. Nothing "genius" about it.

No scout gets it right all the time.

 

[BloodRedArmy]

No scout gets it right all the time.

Of course not, but point to something that makes either of them *special*.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Of course not, but point to something that makes either of them *special*.

Draft picks being good, especially gems in the late rounds.

Check the percentages round by round for players that play 200 games, we’re a pretty good drafting team.

 

[BloodRedArmy]

Draft picks being good, especially gems in the late rounds.

Check the percentages round by round for players that play 200 games, we’re a pretty good drafting team.

I've seen lists, I know that generally speaking Ottawa has drafted very well. But any list I've seen spans far more than the Dorion/ Mann reigns.

Those lists make it seem far more black and white than it really is, as well. Does Colin Greening play as many games if drafted by Detroit back then? Does Kaspers Daugavins get games with Washington? Those lists are very subjective to circumstance.

Mann has Batherson as his diamond in the rough... Dorion had, what, Stone and Dzingel. Nice players, but do these make them drafting royalty?

 

[aragorn]

That's a bit disappointing. I was hoping Mann/Bowness would have a say as well in all GM dealings just to get another whisper in Dorion's ear.

Of course they will, every management team whether in sports or business has meetings with their people for input on all decisions, isn't that an expected best practise these days?

 

[Ice-Tray]

I've seen lists, I know that generally speaking Ottawa has drafted very well. But any list I've seen spans far more than the Dorion/ Mann reigns.

Those lists make it seem far more black and white than it really is, as well. Does Colin Greening play as many games if drafted by Detroit back then? Does Kaspers Daugavins get games with Washington? Those lists are very subjective to circumstance.

Mann has Batherson as his diamond in the rough... Dorion had, what, Stone and Dzingel. Nice players, but do these make them drafting royalty?

I think most teams have bottom players that play games who wouldn’t crack a different team’s roster because most teams have those guys already.

Overall drafting as many players that play over 200 games for us or another team is a good indicator of overall drafting success in the NHL, but there have been misses for sure. Sometimes it’s just less obvious how much the rest of the field misses as well.

I think Mann has several picks that have come around recently, like Pinto, Grieg, Sanderson, Tkachuk, Stutzle, and then several more that look pretty good like Kleven, JBD, Tompson, Sokolov, Soogard, Crookshank and then some out of the blue guys like Lodin and Mereleinin (sp).

The entire last draft has a ways to go before we can pass judgement, but Ostapchuk is already looking solid, and given that virtually everyone was a project we’ll have to see.

Not everyone has to be a star, but when you keep churning out players that end up NHL players, it’s a good system at worst.

 

[BloodRedArmy]

I think most teams have bottom players that play games who wouldn’t crack a different team’s roster because most teams have those guys already.

Overall drafting as many players that play over 200 games for us or another team is a good indicator of overall drafting success in the NHL, but there have been misses for sure. Sometimes it’s just less obvious how much the rest of the field misses as well.

I think Mann has several picks that have come around recently, like Pinto, Grieg, Sanderson, Tkachuk, Stutzle, and then several more that look pretty good like Kleven, JBD, Tompson, Sokolov, Soogard, Crookshank and then some out of the blue guys like Lodin and Mereleinin (sp).

The entire last draft has a ways to go before we can pass judgement, but Ostapchuk is already looking solid, and given that virtually everyone was a project we’ll have to see.

Not everyone has to be a star, but when you keep churning out players that end up NHL players, it’s a good system at worst.

I very much appreciate this thoughtful, non-hostile response.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I very much appreciate this thoughtful, non-hostile response.

As opposed to my usual? Hehe

 

[burf]

I think most teams have bottom players that play games who wouldn’t crack a different team’s roster because most teams have those guys already.

Overall drafting as many players that play over 200 games for us or another team is a good indicator of overall drafting success in the NHL, but there have been misses for sure. Sometimes it’s just less obvious how much the rest of the field misses as well.

I think Mann has several picks that have come around recently, like Pinto, Grieg, Sanderson, Tkachuk, Stutzle, and then several more that look pretty good like Kleven, JBD, Tompson, Sokolov, Soogard, Crookshank and then some out of the blue guys like Lodin and Mereleinin (sp).

The entire last draft has a ways to go before we can pass judgement, but Ostapchuk is already looking solid, and given that virtually everyone was a project we’ll have to see.

Not everyone has to be a star, but when you keep churning out players that end up NHL players, it’s a good system at worst.

I don't think that Mann has done anything special at the draft that's made him worthy of his reputation. He's been in charge of the draft since 2017. You can look at the draft history for the Sens' since that time here:

Ottawa Senators Draft History at hockeydb.com

www.hockeydb.com

He's done a fine job of drafting players in the top 5. Outside of top-5 picks, and the Batherson/Formenton selections in 2017, his draft record is mediocre. It's still a bit early for most of the years, but Bowers in 2017 looks like a bust. For other years:

2018: None of the non-Tkachuk picks look great. JBD looks like he'll be a player, but likely isn't as good as Miller, Sandin, or Lundkvist. Miller and Sandin were both consensus selections there, while JBD was slightly off the board.​

​

2019: Pinto looks like a solid pick, though it's arguable whether he's trending better than Kaliyev or Brink. Thomson, like JBD, will likely be a player, but doesn't look like any sort of steal, especially with Heinola taken right after him. Heinola was the consensus next-best D.​

​

2020: Greig was a fine pick, but he isn't clearly better than either Brisson or Bourque, who were taken right after him. Jarventie looks like a weak pick compared to JJ Peterka, who most Sens fans wanted the team to draft after getting Stutzle. Many of the players drafted around Jarventie look to be trending better than Jarventie, though there's certainly time for Jarventie to turn that around. Kleven looks like a fine pick for the mid-second round, but doesn't necessarily look to be a steal, especially with Faber taken right after him. Sokolov looks like a good pick for the late 2nd.​

​

2021: It's still far too early, but Boucher so far looks to be a misstep, and has been outperformed by almost every player taken in the next 10 picks. Ostapchuk looks OK, but he only scored at a .6ppg pace in the WHL in his post-draft year, and shouldn't be expected to be anything more than a warm body in the NHL.​

Arguably, the Sens' best strength in recent years has been player development rather than drafting. I'm not sure how much of that is on Mann, but if it was him, credit where it's due. The players that have made the NHL in that timeframe were mostly drafted when Dorion was in charge. I'm not sure to what extent Mann has been involved in amateur scouting in relation to trades, but the Sens have hit some home runs there, in particular the Norris trade.

With respect to drafting, I don't think he's done anything that puts him even in the top-third of the league, especially after going so off the board with every pick in 2021, with no clear results to show for it.

e: To be clear, I mostly agree with what you said. The Sens have a good farm system that seems to churn out, at worst, a fair number of replacement-level NHLers. So far, most of those replacement-level NHLers have come from drafts when Dorion was in charge.

I think the main weakness in Manns system is that they seem to be prioritizing potential floor over ceiling, or mis-identifying potential high-ceiling players. As a result, their draft results since 2018 have been fairly weak as they've consistently gone against consensus or passed on higher-ceiling players, without their gambles showing much in the way of tangible results.