Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[PuckMunchkin]

This is a pretty crazy take for a couple reasons:

1) they've only been employed for a couple months from their hirings to the trade deadline

They should have a general idea of the state of the team even in they are not working for the team. Its not like they were born that day with zero knowledge of the mess the Canucks were.

2) they didn't do much that trade deadline anyway

Inaction is also a choice.

This was a great opportunity to sell high on Miller. Instead they turned that very valuable trade asset in to an albatross contract.

3) they got Harmonic for assets (which shocked many people) and then targeted a young defensemen with upside in Dermott. It hasn't worked out but you can't predict concussions... it was a worthwhile gamble.

I liked the Hamonic (no r in his name) trade, obviously. But they threw the asset away instantly. You can't just handwave the mistake they made acquiring Dermott.

I mean what did you want them to do? Make franchise altering moves based on being here for a couple months?

They were not born the day they were hired by FAQ.

That's a pretty unreasonable ask.

If they were incapable of making decisions for the team they were the wrong hires.

They were still in the midst of collecting information at that point of their job.

Then they were the wrong hires.

Maybe we could have traded Miller but that means we would have extended Horvat at an ugly number... not sure if that's a huge miss considering JTM's level of play right now.

That would have put us in a much better spot. If they worked to extend Horvat during the summer, the contract is no where near what he signed for with the Isles after having his ridiculous heater of a run.

Obviously they should have moved on from both. That was obvious to most fans. It should have been obvious to people hired to run an NHL team.

He was also in the middle of a crazy good year.

What else could they have executed in last season's trade deadline? They literally just got hired couple months before lol.

LOL indeed. Lol... Indeed.

 

[andora]

I dont see how horvat long term versus miller even at 1 million less is better

It was either trade both or keep miller in my opinion and was since last year.

Horvat is and was so miscast imo in his importance long term

 

[EverTheCynic]

I dont see how horvat long term versus miller even at 1 million less is better

It was either trade both or keep miller in my opinion and was since last year.

Horvat is and was so miscast imo in his importance long term

I think it was Francesco.

My opinion is that the last management/coaching group didn't like Horvat very much either. But Francesco ordered the captaincy on him, and took personal pride in the player. Forcing their hand and nixing a trade (Buchnevich), keeping Horvat in the org to justify his personal decision with putting the C on him.

But it looks like we have a management group with some balls now. Actually able to deal with Francesco and make some good decisions.

Tough ask of them to turn this thing around, but I'm happy at least they appear able to keep Franny at bay. Hopefully that continues.

 

[andora]

I think it was Francesco.

My opinion is that the last management/coaching group didn't like Horvat very much either. But Francesco ordered the captaincy on him, and took personal pride in the player. Forcing their hand and nixing a trade (Buchnevich), keeping Horvat in the org to justify his personal decision with putting the C on him.

But it looks like we have a management group with some balls now. Actually able to deal with Francesco and make some good decisions.

Tough ask of them to turn this thing around, but I'm happy at least they appear able to keep Franny at bay. Hopefully that continues.

Never remember the buch rumors.. intetesting

I agree this group has some balls which keeps me mildly optimistic.. ever realistic..

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I dont see how horvat long term versus miller even at 1 million less is better

Because he is an adult.

Because he is useful even when he isn't scoring.

He is an actual top 6 center and most likely will be for the reminder of his deal. Miller is a winger who can fill in at center.

It was either trade both or keep miller in my opinion and was since last year.

Horvat is and was so miscast imo in his importance long term

I think it was Francesco.

My opinion is that the last management/coaching group didn't like Horvat very much either. But Francesco ordered the captaincy on him, and took personal pride in the player. Forcing their hand and nixing a trade (Buchnevich), keeping Horvat in the org to justify his personal decision with putting the C on him.

But it looks like we have a management group with some balls now. Actually able to deal with Francesco and make some good decisions.

Tough ask of them to turn this thing around, but I'm happy at least they appear able to keep Franny at bay. Hopefully that continues.

I dont know if they have balls.

They've really done nothing but doubled own on the team that has consistently failed to make the playoffs. They dont have the guts to take a step back and actually fix what is wrong with this team. Its the same old plan. Try to make the playoffs every single year.

 

[andora]

Because he is an adult.

Because he is useful even when he isn't scoring.

He is an actual top 6 center and most likely will be for the reminder of his deal. Miller is a winger who can fill in at center.




I dont know if they have balls.

They've really done nothing but doubled own on the team that has consistently failed to make the playoffs. They dont have the guts to take a step back and actually fix what is wrong with this team. Its the same old plan. Try to make the playoffs every single year.

The adult comment, thats fine. My peraonal opinion of horvat is that he is an extremely bland middle center that does and would have cost too much money for a bland middle center.

As we go along.. some teams are starting to figure out this cap thing and build a program so players (as long as they fit your system) become more interchangeable. I believe with what has been put in place with abbotsford and development staff that is one of the lomg term goals here. The adult doesnt fit that in my opinion.. not as a middle center.

I think miller is a center from here on out here in vancouver and i also thinks he gets better at it.. which is certainly a possible guess. He will be until someone better suited for 2c comes along or is traded. The adult just played really shitty hockey for two months when he should have been the most motivated in his career.

Not having balls to take the infamous step back does not eliminate them from ball contention in other areas.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The adult comment, thats fine. My peraonal opinion of horvat is that he is an extremely bland middle center that does and would have cost too much money for a bland middle center.

As we go along.. some teams are starting to figure out this cap thing and build a program so players (as long as they fit your system) become more interchangeable. I believe with what has been put in place with abbotsford and development staff that is one of the lomg term goals here. The adult doesnt fit that in my opinion.. not as a middle center.

I think miller is a center from here on out here in vancouver and i also thinks he gets better at it.. which is certainly a possible guess. He will be until someone better suited for 2c comes along or is traded. The adult just played really shitty hockey for two months when he should have been the most motivated in his career.

Not having balls to take the infamous step back does not eliminate them from ball contention in other areas.

I'll believe it when I see it with Miller.

To expect a 29 year old to get better in any significant way is a bit foolish imo.

 

[arttk]

I'll believe it when I see it with Miller.

To expect a 29 year old to get better in any significant way is a bit foolish imo.

He just put up 82 pts as a center after posting 99pts as a center.

Maybe it’s just you not wanting to admit he’s a center.

 

[m9]

I think the age difference between Miller/Horvat is a valid reason for keeping Horvat over Miller given when you expect this team to be competitive. But it's also probably the best reason why both should have been moved.

 

[credulous]

the problem with miller as a center is that when playing center his possession metrics are mediocre and his production at even strength is 115th amongst forwards. he does have value because of his utility on the power play but it's really hard to see vancouver being successful with miller carrying a line. he either needs to do much more to prevent chances against or he needs to be played on the wing next to a better player

 

[PuckMunchkin]

He just put up 82 pts as a center after posting 99pts as a center.

Maybe it’s just you not wanting to admit he’s a center.

Do we agree that he is a much much better winger than center?

 

[arttk]

Do we agree that he is a much much better winger than center?

That’s a weird question, he has put up more points playing center than he has playing as a winger.

 

[andora]

One year removed from leading the team at 5on5 scoring as well i believe

We will see

 

[JohnHodgson]

He just put up 82 pts as a center after posting 99pts as a center.

Maybe it’s just you not wanting to admit he’s a center.

It’s pretty obvious the guy you’re “debating” with doesn’t watch Canucks games. Miller played the best hockey of his life at C with Tocchet in the second half of the year.

“BUT HES NOT A CENTER THO!!!!”

i don't know how anyone can be satisfied with how this year went. they had half a season to evaluate the team and players and still managed to deliver a roster that never came close to being relevant. sure, they had cap issues but apart from moving two years of 2.65m they did nothing to address the cap issues and they operated as if they were a playoff contender moving picks and prospects for roster players to help them compete when given the end result they should have done the opposite. all this despite being gifted a free top line forward in kuzmenko

either their evaluation was way off and you should be concerned or their execution was way off and you should be concerned. there's no way to spin this year as promising

the same people are in charge this offseason. why are we expecting better results?

Bookmarking this for next year.

 

[JohnHodgson]

It is likely there were some opportunities last trade deadline so it's fair to criticize back that far. Though obviously, who knows what offers were actually out there.

According to whom??

What “opportunities” were there? How is it fair to criticize when you just said we didn’t know what actual offers were on the table?

 

[rypper]

Um... didn't Miller spend a large portion of the season on Horvat's wing?

 

[Vector]

Um... didn't Miller spend a large portion of the season on Horvat's wing?

Before Tocchet he was only producing when attached to Horvat. It was the same for Horvat too. Together they were a great combo but separate both numbers dropped. Miller’s dropped more, though. Then when Tocchet got here and Miller shifted back to C, he took off again like last season.

 

[rypper]

Before Tocchet he was only producing when attached to Horvat. It was the same for Horvat too. Together they were a great combo but separate both numbers dropped. Miller’s dropped more, though. Then when Tocchet got here and Miller shifted back to C, he took off again like last season.

I guess I'm thinking that before some of us label him a great center that put up 82 points... maybe he should do it over the course of the season?

Trying to see @PuckMunchkin's point of view.

 

[Vector]

I guess I'm thinking that before some of us label him a great center that put up 82 points... maybe he should do it over the course of the season?

Trying to see @PuckMunchkin's point of view.

In 20-21 he took the second most face-offs on the team and according to Dobber his most common linemates were a combination of Pearson, Boeser, and Garland. So he’s definitively spent an entire season as a high-level centre.

 

[arttk]

I guess I'm thinking that before some of us label him a great center that put up 82 points... maybe he should do it over the course of the season?

Trying to see @PuckMunchkin's point of view.

He put up 99 points the season before playing as a center

 

[God]

In 20-21 he took the second most face-offs on the team and according to Dobber his most common linemates were a combination of Pearson, Boeser, and Garland. So he’s definitively spent an entire season as a high-level centre.

Faceoffs isn't always the best indicator of someone playing the centre position but you can pretty clearly watch highlights from old games and on scoring chances against, he's usually the low forward, which is a pretty good indication that he has centre duties. IIRC when he played with Pettersson it would switch back and forth between them but I can't be bothered to check.

 

[Vector]

Faceoffs isn't always the best indicator of someone playing the centre position but you can pretty clearly watch highlights from old games and on scoring chances against, he's usually the low forward, which is a pretty good indication that he has centre duties. IIRC when he played with Pettersson it would switch back and forth between them but I can't be bothered to check.

That’s why I included his most common linemates as well.

 

[Kryten]

Do we agree that he is a much much better winger than center?

So is Horvat, he is a winger who is good at faceoffs. All we can agree on is Miller is a better Center and Winger than Horvat is

 

[aight]

the problem with miller as a center is that when playing center his possession metrics are mediocre and his production at even strength is 115th amongst forwards. he does have value because of his utility on the power play but it's really hard to see vancouver being successful with miller carrying a line. he either needs to do much more to prevent chances against or he needs to be played on the wing next to a better player

Petey deserves JT on his left.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Literally every attribute of JT's is stronger at C, he's among the best. Track record and evidence is a decade long. So odd that it's even talked about.