Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[valkynax]

The cap issue shouldn’t even be a debate in the fanbase. There shouldn’t be apologists. It’ll be two TDLs, two drafts, two July 1s.

Rutherford laughed at even a medium term re-whatever. PA’s moves have been indicative of a team trying to build a short-medium term winner. They aimed for the playoffs and missed once.

They’ve said their number one goal is cap space and flexibility for two years now.

It has to happen now. The team has to be one that you would actually bet on making the playoffs next season, and that won’t happen without moving out deadweight and reallocating that cap space towards usable players.

A homer “but if everything goes their way, OEL/Myers bounce back, Aman Malhotra type 3c, boeser 40, hog and pod both step up, Hirose top four D, and more w no regression” playoff bet is nonsense.

Jobs have to be on the line over the next six months.

That's EXACTLY how the fat dobber tried to run this organization for almost a decade, was it not?

For me, I'm done listening to skeletor and moleman's droning chirping and derping about how awesome their plan is. They need to start showing actual results right f***ing now, because this is the path they chose. Want a cup level team with Hughes Pete as the core, fine, what else are you two going to do within this narrow window? Besides crying and bitching about cap space? How about actually clearing some cap space?

 

[m9]

The cap issue shouldn’t even be a debate in the fanbase. There shouldn’t be apologists. It’ll be two TDLs, two drafts, two July 1s.

Rutherford laughed at even a medium term re-whatever. PA’s moves have been indicative of a team trying to build a short-medium term winner. They aimed for the playoffs and missed once.

They’ve said their number one goal is cap space and flexibility for two years now.

It has to happen now. The team has to be one that you would actually bet on making the playoffs next season, and that won’t happen without moving out deadweight and reallocating that cap space towards usable players.

A homer “but if everything goes their way, OEL/Myers bounce back, Aman Malhotra type 3c, boeser 40, hog and pod both step up, Hirose top four D, and more w no regression” playoff bet is nonsense.

Jobs have to be on the line over the next six months.

It's bizarre what people will overlook or dismiss to protect a franchise that has been awful for a decade. They've made moves consistent with a "win now" team since they got here. Okay, go win now then. This is the path you think is correct, so go execute. I don't think that's too much to ask for as a fan.

 

[arttk]

They've talked about fixing the cap situation for much longer than a few weeks, it's obviously an issue that stretches back since they were all hired.

And surely you understand by "time to get things done" I mean this off-season, not like by today at 5pm.

No f***ing shit they will need to do something considering they are over the cap right now. Just don’t see why bother complaining about it now. If they don’t do shit by July 1st then yeah the alarm bells should be going off.

At the end of the day, the issue is not clearing cap, the issue is they need to turnover the roster and make it better. Clearing cap is just one of the step to getting there. The moment they free up the cap they see going to fill it with another piece anyway so we are never going to see them “clear the cap”.

 

[racerjoe]

The cap issue shouldn’t even be a debate in the fanbase. There shouldn’t be apologists. It’ll be two TDLs, two drafts, two July 1s.

Rutherford laughed at even a medium term re-whatever. PA’s moves have been indicative of a team trying to build a short-medium term winner. They aimed for the playoffs and missed once.

They’ve said their number one goal is cap space and flexibility for two years now.

It has to happen now. The team has to be one that you would actually bet on making the playoffs next season, and that won’t happen without moving out deadweight and reallocating that cap space towards usable players.

A homer “but if everything goes their way, OEL/Myers bounce back, Aman Malhotra type 3c, boeser 40, hog and pod both step up, Hirose top four D, and more w no regression” playoff bet is nonsense.

Jobs have to be on the line over the next six months.

I agree with most of this, but one thing. They haven't had two years. It hasn't even been a year and a half.

I don't disagree, they need to fix the cap, and talk is cheap. This is an absolute massive offseason, and it better get done.

The first half season I don't think should be added on as a year of time when it A) it wasn't a season, and B) until the offseason there wasn't a lot that could be done.

I do think they should have done more last off season and think they made mistakes last offseason, but lets not add on time when little to nothing could be done.

 

[m9]

I agree with most of this, but one thing. They haven't had two years. It hasn't even been a year and a half.

I don't disagree, they need to fix the cap, and talk is cheap. This is an absolute massive offseason, and it better get done.

The first half season I don't think should be added on as a year of time when it A) it wasn't a season, and B) until the offseason there wasn't a lot that could be done.

I do think they should have done more last off season and think they made mistakes last offseason, but lets not add on time when little to nothing could be done.

It is likely there were some opportunities last trade deadline so it's fair to criticize back that far. Though obviously, who knows what offers were actually out there.

 

[racerjoe]

It is likely there were some opportunities last trade deadline so it's fair to criticize back that far. Though obviously, who knows what offers were actually out there.

Even if you want to include the Trade deadline its been less than a year and a half since JR took over.

 

[RandV]

Most of those players were already on the team this past year - a team that wasn't good enough. They also lost one of their top forwards in Horvat and whatever value you place on Schenn. This team as is isn't really "upgraded" from what they've had in previous seasons.

Nobody denies they were given a bad hand from the previous guy, but they sure haven't helped it to this point in terms of cap.

This is like expecting a chicken without an egg. Unless you want to go with the angle that there's too much of a cap mess left by Benning that competing is pointless for 2-3 years, which is a different argument, but if they're trying to be competitive with what they have?

With contracts they've acquired/signed going into next year, the significant ones are: Miller, Boeser, Kuzmenko, Beauvillier, Mikheyev, and Hronek, for $33.3M cap. They could have moved on or not signed/acquired from these players and have that cap space back, but then the lineup looks something like:

Podkolzin-Pettersson-Garland
Hoglander-Dries-Kravtsov
Di Giuseppe-Aman-Joshua
McDonough-Studnika-Klimovich

Hughes-Bear
Hirose-Myers
OEL-Wolanin

Demko
Delia

But you have 33.3M cap space. Which is my point, you have to spend the money if you want any chance at being competitive. Did the nail the spending? From the standard of Mike Gillis retooling the Canucks when he came onboard no. But when you're looking at it being 6 players and $33.3M to juggle. That's a lot of moving parts to expect them to nail every move, and having say Boeser over another dman is a reasonable margin of error that they can work towards correcting in the summer. In my opinion they mess up the cap here when they're forced to lose someone they didn't want to, like not being able to afford Kuzmenko's extension. They're toeing the line, but they haven't gone over.

And again, the real cap issue is the mess Benning made which really there's little that can be done with. Like I said, next season it's $13.26M in healthy players wasted and $5.75M LTIR money to juggle. This past season there was an extra $3.5M LTIR in Ferland, and $2.4M in dead cap space from the Holtby & Virtanen buyouts. Oh and another $1.25M from carryover bonus overages.

 

[Vector]

Even if you want to include the Trade deadline its been less than a year and a half since JR took over.

We absolutely need to include last season’s trade deadline when evaluating this management group.

 

[m9]

No f***ing shit they will need to do something considering they are over the cap right now. Just don’t see why bother complaining about it now. If they don’t do shit by July 1st then yeah the alarm bells should be going off.

This was really the first time I'd personally crunched their cap situation since they made a few depth signings near the end of the season and also had the Kuzmenko bonus confirmed. You've taken a very bland, generic post by me and gotten worked up about nothing.

At the end of the day, the issue is not clearing cap, the issue is they need to turnover the roster and make it better. Clearing cap is just one of the step to getting there. The moment they free up the cap they see going to fill it with another piece anyway so we are never going to see them “clear the cap

Of course.

 

[m9]

This is like expecting a chicken without an egg. Unless you want to go with the angle that there's too much of a cap mess left by Benning that competing is pointless for 2-3 years, which is a different argument, but if they're trying to be competitive with what they have?

With contracts they've acquired/signed going into next year, the significant ones are: Miller, Boeser, Kuzmenko, Beauvillier, Mikheyev, and Hronek, for $33.3M cap. They could have moved on or not signed/acquired from these players and have that cap space back, but then the lineup looks something like:

Podkolzin-Pettersson-Garland
Hoglander-Dries-Kravtsov
Di Giuseppe-Aman-Joshua
McDonough-Studnika-Klimovich

Hughes-Bear
Hirose-Myers
OEL-Wolanin

Demko
Delia

But you have 33.3M cap space. Which is my point, you have to spend the money if you want any chance at being competitive. Did the nail the spending? From the standard of Mike Gillis retooling the Canucks when he came onboard no. But when you're looking at it being 6 players and $33.3M to juggle. That's a lot of moving parts to expect them to nail every move, and having say Boeser over another dman is a reasonable margin of error that they can work towards correcting in the summer. In my opinion they mess up the cap here when they're forced to lose someone they didn't want to, like not being able to afford Kuzmenko's extension. They're toeing the line, but they haven't gone over.

And again, the real cap issue is the mess Benning made which really there's little that can be done with. Like I said, next season it's $13.26M in healthy players wasted and $5.75M LTIR money to juggle. This past season there was an extra $3.5M LTIR in Ferland, and $2.4M in dead cap space from the Holtby & Virtanen buyouts. Oh and another $1.25M from carryover bonus overages.

Okay, well they spent all that money and still weren't competitive and now have no cap flexibility. Can we criticize that then?

I don't really know what point you're making. It's absolutely bizarre there is pushback that this lack of cap flexibility is totally normal and'a fine, completely unavoidable situation. Is that normal for other non-playoff teams? Nobody is saying they should have a shell of a roster with 30 million in space. Not even sure why you would go through that exercise.

This obviously isn't completely accurate as there will be a bit of movement with LTIR/etc, but again this situation they've created isn't normal:

2024-25 NHL Team Salary Cap Tracker

A real-time look at the 2024-25 salary cap totals for each NHL team, including estimated cap space.

www.spotrac.com

 

[racerjoe]

We absolutely need to include last season’s trade deadline when evaluating this management group.

Include it and how does it change your evolution then?

 

[Vector]

Include it and how does it change your evolution then?

It doesn’t change mine but anyone that isn’t including it is being disingenuous.

Like I’ve always said, I’m holding off on making any grand proclamations about this management group until after this off season. This will be their fourth big chance to drastically change the make-up of the team.

 

[m9]

Include it and how does it change your evolution then?

It doesn’t change mine but anyone that isn’t including it is being disingenuous.

Like I’ve always said, I’m holding off on making any grand proclamations about this management group until after this off season. This will be their fourth big chance to drastically change the make-up of the team.

It was also the first major benchmark in terms of opportunities to improve the team long-term and they didn't accomplish anything major. I still like the Hamonic deal, albeit mitigated a bit by the Dermott one.

As always it's hard to quantify missed opportunities along the way so we don't really know how much it changes the evaluation. We've heard rumors about Schenn & Garland being able to be moved at that time for returns that were higher than they were worth last season. Likely true for other players, as well. The argument that they kept those guys around because they were going to be competing in 2022-23 is hard to justify when they didn't really compete in 2022-23.

 

[racerjoe]

It doesn’t change mine but anyone that isn’t including it is being disingenuous.

Like I’ve always said, I’m holding off on making any grand proclamations about this management group until after this off season. This will be their fourth big chance to drastically change the make-up of the team.

Fair, but that is my point. It isn't a point that should change anyone mind of anything. As much of a major direction change point as it can be, it is generally just for UFA's not players under contract.

It was also the first major benchmark in terms of opportunities to improve the team long-term and they didn't accomplish anything major. I still like the Hamonic deal, albeit mitigated a bit by the Dermott one.

As always it's hard to quantify missed opportunities along the way so we don't really know how much it changes the evaluation. We've heard rumors about Schenn & Garland being able to be moved at that time for returns that were higher than they were worth last season. Likely true for other players, as well. The argument that they kept those guys around because they were going to be competing in 2022-23 is hard to justify when they didn't really compete in 2022-23.

As someone who thought the team was going to be more competitive this season then they were, I would say that is a bad point period. Those players shouldn't have been thought of as key players for a winning team. I hope that is not why they were not traded.

I don't think holding onto Shcenn did much of anything as we still traded him at this deadline for the same asset. I am going to hold for judgement on Garland until we see what the club does with the extra middle 6 wingers they have.

 

[m9]

As someone who thought the team was going to be more competitive this season then they were, I would say that is a bad point period. Those players shouldn't have been thought of as key players for a winning team. I hope that is not why they were not traded.

I meant more keeping Miller, Horvat, as well as all those secondary players. I didn't word it out well, my bad.

I don't think holding onto Shcenn did much of anything as we still traded him at this deadline for the same asset. I am going to hold for judgement on Garland until we see what the club does with the extra middle 6 wingers they have.

Rumoured that a 2nd was on the table for Schenn last year. Obviously not a massive loss vs what we got this year, but when you are talking about the accumulation of minor losses along the way it's just something.

In terms of Garland, it was a salary that probably could have been moved and the player has likely depreciated since then. And when they run out of cap space and use a 2nd on Dickinson, it's just something else that factors in.

These are all things that I'm probably totally fine forgiving if they make the playoffs this year. But when you make moves (or non-moves) and don't reach your goal, I think things like this should be critiqued.

 

[MarkMM]

To me they're clearly better than Benning, but not good enough to convince that they can execute the goal they've laid out for themselves, and there are some difficult but doable things they can do this off-season that would put them on a plausible track, so that's what I'm waiting for.

 

[JohnHodgson]

We absolutely need to include last season’s trade deadline when evaluating this management group.

This is a pretty crazy take for a couple reasons:

1) they've only been employed for a couple months from their hirings to the trade deadline
2) they didn't do much that trade deadline anyway
3) they got Harmonic for assets (which shocked many people) and then targeted a young defensemen with upside in Dermott. It hasn't worked out but you can't predict concussions... it was a worthwhile gamble.

I mean what did you want them to do? Make franchise altering moves based on being here for a couple months? That's a pretty unreasonable ask. They were still in the midst of collecting information at that point of their job. Maybe we could have traded Miller but that means we would have extended Horvat at an ugly number... not sure if that's a huge miss considering JTM's level of play right now. He was also in the middle of a crazy good year.

What else could they have executed in last season's trade deadline? They literally just got hired couple months before lol.

 

[Vector]

Ah yes. The crazy take of evaluating people on their actions. My apologies for this wildly out there idea.

 

[racerjoe]

I meant more keeping Miller, Horvat, as well as all those secondary players. I didn't word it out well, my bad.



Rumoured that a 2nd was on the table for Schenn last year. Obviously not a massive loss vs what we got this year, but when you are talking about the accumulation of minor losses along the way it's just something.

In terms of Garland, it was a salary that probably could have been moved and the player has likely depreciated since then. And when they run out of cap space and use a 2nd on Dickinson, it's just something else that factors in.

These are all things that I'm probably totally fine forgiving if they make the playoffs this year. But when you make moves (or non-moves) and don't reach your goal, I think things like this should be critiqued.

I think we are almost on the same page. The Dickinson thing should be looked at. I think in Value it was a fair trade, looking at historical equivalents. I actually like the move now that all the pieces are finished. We moved the salary, and while we gave a up a second we got back an asset we could flip for a decent prospect.

That is what I want to see of the Garland issue (or other winger moved we will see) to judge what I think of holding onto him.

You want to judge the moves based on last season, which is fair, but I want to judge them on the finished product.

 

[m9]

I think we are almost on the same page. The Dickinson thing should be looked at. I think in Value it was a fair trade, looking at historical equivalents. I actually like the move now that all the pieces are finished. We moved the salary, and while we gave a up a second we got back an asset we could flip for a decent prospect.

That is what I want to see of the Garland issue (or other winger moved we will see) to judge what I think of holding onto him.

You want to judge the moves based on last season, which is fair, but I want to judge them on the finished product.

I just want to judge it on everything, including this last season. I'm not anti-management, I think they've done some good things.

I think they might get rewarded with their patience in regards to the wingers and do okay in deals for them this off-season. I really, really hope they do.

 

[racerjoe]

I just want to judge it on everything, including this last season. I'm not anti-management, I think they've done some good things.

I think they might get rewarded with their patience in regards to the wingers and do okay in deals for them this off-season. I really, really hope they do.

All fair like I said in my previous post. Its just the point of making judgments on certain aspects.

Interestingly enough I am not as pro management as I often come off, I just feel so much gets lumped into Benning. The people who claim same as always and so on.

 

[arttk]

This was really the first time I'd personally crunched their cap situation since they made a few depth signings near the end of the season and also had the Kuzmenko bonus confirmed. You've taken a very bland, generic post by me and gotten worked up about nothing.



Of course.

I think it's like the most repeated point since the season started.

literally nobody disagrees with it.

 

[m9]

I think it's like the most repeated point since the season started.

literally nobody disagrees with it.

Glad we are in agreement then

 

[credulous]

i don't know how anyone can be satisfied with how this year went. they had half a season to evaluate the team and players and still managed to deliver a roster that never came close to being relevant. sure, they had cap issues but apart from moving two years of 2.65m they did nothing to address the cap issues and they operated as if they were a playoff contender moving picks and prospects for roster players to help them compete when given the end result they should have done the opposite. all this despite being gifted a free top line forward in kuzmenko

either their evaluation was way off and you should be concerned or their execution was way off and you should be concerned. there's no way to spin this year as promising

the same people are in charge this offseason. why are we expecting better results?

 

[arttk]

Glad we are in agreement then

I would love to find somebody who is not and is advocating for us going into next season over the cap