Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[CanucksMJL]

A guy who played well in garbage time, that every expert says needs to play in the AHL, looking good at the end of the year when nothing matters is hardly inspiring to me. Kuz was a bright spot, no doubt.

Hirose looked good and overall ya, a big meh. Almost the definition of let's see.
Kuz was a bright spot. Like really really uncomfortably bright. Turn it down because I can't tell what I'm looking at bright. The guy makes 1M less than Boeser and only 500k more than Garland. Add those guys' best ever goal totals together and Kuz comes only 12 short.

The plan seems eerily familiar to the prior regime and guess what? They also targeted identified and acquired players in other professional and amateur leagues, it's a great concept when you have built enough balance that these players can learn and thrive, not so much when your a mediocre team with little balance and no depth....

Sorry? What? Benning plan? Unless you mean targeting the biggest FA on the wrong side of 30 willing to come here counts as a plan. In the absence of an actual big name FA simply pay anyone straddling 30 with pedigree 5+ years expired and pay them like you landed something of value. Oh, I almost forgot. Trade picks for age-gap reclamation projects that fail.

Snark aside, I get the sense of similarity. Try to make the playoffs with the naive hope you'll catch fire in a bottle and squeeze a few extra home games to make all the spending seem less insane. IF you're less cynical you might say they were trying to build a foundation of hardworking veterans to shepherd a new era of Canucks into winners.

Ironically I think that strategy is solid, the difference is that the timing was previously inappropriate and the execution was awful. Louie, OEL, Vey, Baertschi, Gudbranson, Sutter, Holtby, Beagle were all such unmitigated disasters that it doesn't matter how sound the strategy used to rationalize those deals were. Strategic execution at such low levels would make even the GOAT of strategies irrelevant. That ignores the strong likelihood that "building" around an obviously declining Sedin core was not a good strategy. That was the time for a full-scale scorched earth rebuild. That time is gone.

Today there are legit reasons to build. The Benning age-gap memes haunt us not because those ideas aren't legitimate when applied in an appropriate context, but because JB&co chose poorly and at the completely wrong time.

 

[m9]

Snark aside, I get the sense of similarity. Try to make the playoffs with the naive hope you'll catch fire in a bottle and squeeze a few extra home games to make all the spending seem less insane.

I think this is all people are really saying when they compare regimes. Both regimes seem focused on building a team positioned to compete to make the playoffs (but not win a Stanley Cup) and some of the same type of moves are being made to achieve that goal. Most people don't like a template where it is basically a certainty you aren't going to get a top pick OR be a final 4 team as being one of the middle 15ish teams is the worst place to be for teams in North American sports that are reliant on a draft.

 

[theguardianII]

Reaching back to Antiquity when the team's core was old hasn't 8 years of younger not shown that young does not necessarily mean good.

Teams have to rely on the draft to get star players for their core. Sensible trading is also necessary to build a winner. Once enough star core players are drafted then picks can become assets to improve the team through trades

The last few games last year and this year show how far the Canucks need to go.

Only by playing the few good younger players to death and relying upon stellar goal tending for wins magnify the lack of offensive depth and that the coach and upper office know the deficiencies.

A few years ago and maybe more recently, I posted "What is the GM's job?" His job is not to win the cup but to fill the arena, sell tickets and team stuff.

What is the real difference between this team and the 2015 team? That team had the Sedins, both combined had more than 100 points, it had very good goal tending, it did have better defence by quite a margin but overall they are similar. Oh, and they were both capped out.

The signing of Hronek only marginally replaces Tanev maybe. Hughes is still an offensive plus but a work in progress backside.

The GM still praises the hope for next year but still caps out the team.

Younger, 12 bottom nine forwards and 5 bottom 4 defencemen, younger but not as skilled as a 32 yr old dman (Schenn).

Ever since the cap only one GM in Vancouver managed the cap and team successfully. Although Nonis should be given credit for Luongo.

Young does not mean good or even getting better, it does mean hope can sold much longer and the last thing a GM selling hope wants is a first round player making the team and outshining others there.

Watch or listen to Allvin's comments and see how much those same comments could have been applied 8 years ago. Hit the rewind button and see repeats. Sometimes these comments are so similar to other teams they should be copywritten.

There are only TWO Canadian teams that seem to operate like US teams, Toronto and Montreal. And Toronto only since the Shanaplan Dubas hiring. Montreal just seem to do whatever they want without restraint. How many times have they retooled, rebuilt or blown it up in the last 12 years? And how many playoff appearances and finals. In Montreal it is TEAM first with players on the TEAM. This year they will have 11 picks THIS year and 28 picks over the next 3 years. Picks or trade assets. They still finished 5 spots behind the Canucks even with the full tank on.

The word "competitive" in Vancouver now means "looking good losing"
Come out and pay 2 bills to see your Huggy Bear, young (25) Petey, star goalie (who hasn't won anything) Demko and the 65 or so specialty nights and 5 tributes to the Sedins and other past players in their 45+/50's/60's who were on winning teams just to remind fans that there were winner's in Vancouver. Just love that night for girl scout cookies. Save the Whales night, Gum on the bottom of your shoe night but you will not see "Your empty pockets nights" that is the last thing they want.

But hey, they are younger and waaayyyy behind the other younger teams in the standings

 

[Orr4Norris]

Jim Rutherford was wrong to throw his coach under the bus, and leave him hanging....The whole organization got shat upon by the fans, media, and TV (a big dressing down on HNIC to boot..coast to coast).

I didnt like what JR said about Boudreau and his systems (it should have been said behind closed doors)....Conversely, JR was 100% bang on correct about the Canucks poor coaching systems...The truth hurts...This has come to light via the players post season comments ...The coaching issue (up in the air) had an adverse effect on the players...and the players had no clue as where they were supposed to be on the ice.

JR is a blunt instrument ,and doesnt hold back..I admire his honesty (even though I dont always agree with it)...Its a pity he decided not to do interviews anymore (because of a potential shit show).

Make no mistake, even though he is no longer doing interviews , he is the guy (like the Godfather) puling all the strings behind the scenes.

Or this group of players like to look for excuses for their poor performance year in years out. It’s convenient how often it’s the coach with this group over, say, their conditioning, or commitment to a team game. BB is one of the most successful regular season coaches, so I’ll believe this ‘it was coaching’ when this team puts together a full regular season of try.

And the emphasis on lack of conditioning and summer time habits at the end of the season, probably tells you all you need to know about how prepared these ‘professionals’ were for this season. And why it went off the rails.

 

[credulous]

The word "competitive" in Vancouver now means "looking good losing"

100%

this is not a serious team

 

[Gurn]

 

[Jyrki21]

It's been raised on a couple of podcasts now that the Mikheyev signing was a form of tied selling from Dan Milstein in order to land Andrei Kuzmenko. Apart from the fact that I don't mind Mikheyev as a player, and in hindsight that explains a lot about his otherwise unanticipated signing, that seems like a pretty wild ethical breach. Like doubtful that was Kuzmenko's own demand (I'll only sign with Vancouver if they bring this one other dude whom I don't know but happens to be your client) and it raises issues with Milstein's duty to his client.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

It's been raised on a couple of podcasts now that the Mikheyev signing was a form of tied selling from Dan Milstein in order to land Andrei Kuzmenko. Apart from the fact that I don't mind Mikheyev as a player, and in hindsight that explains a lot about his otherwise unanticipated signing, that seems like a pretty wild ethical breach. Like doubtful that was Kuzmenko's own demand (I'll only sign with Vancouver if they bring this one other dude whom I don't know but happens to be your client) and it raises issues with Milstein's duty to his client.

Yeah this doesn't pass the smell test. Like, it's a wild ethical breach. It's not like the Canucks paid some immense premium for Mikheyev, he signed a fairly standard market-rate contract.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

It's been raised on a couple of podcasts now that the Mikheyev signing was a form of tied selling from Dan Milstein in order to land Andrei Kuzmenko. Apart from the fact that I don't mind Mikheyev as a player, and in hindsight that explains a lot about his otherwise unanticipated signing, that seems like a pretty wild ethical breach. Like doubtful that was Kuzmenko's own demand (I'll only sign with Vancouver if they bring this one other dude whom I don't know but happens to be your client) and it raises issues with Milstein's duty to his client.

I could see the argument of “my client wants to sign with a team that ideally has a few Russians to help his transition to NA.” At the time, the Canucks only had Podkolzin who wasn’t exactly a fixture on the roster. I agree though, tying it specifically to Mikheyev is a huge stretch.

 

[Jyrki21]

Yeah this doesn't pass the smell test. Like, it's a wild ethical breach. It's not like the Canucks paid some immense premium for Mikheyev, he signed a fairly standard market-rate contract.

Well the thinking is they probably wouldn't have signed another winger at all unless they "had" to (remember how out-of-left-field it seemed at the time). If Kuzmenko was unspecific and just wanted another Russian-speaker, they could have just added an 8th defenseman or whatever. It does raise some eyebrows when put into context like that, although I'd be curious what is actually being alleged.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Well the thinking is they probably wouldn't have signed another winger at all unless they "had" to (remember how out-of-left-field it seemed at the time). If Kuzmenko was unspecific and just wanted another Russian-speaker, they could have just added an 8th defenseman or whatever. It does raise some eyebrows when put into context like that, although I'd be curious what is actually being alleged.

I don't know. They needed major PK help, and without Mikheyev it was looking like a swap of Motte for Lazar, which is a net loss.

 

[RandV]

Well the thinking is they probably wouldn't have signed another winger at all unless they "had" to (remember how out-of-left-field it seemed at the time). If Kuzmenko was unspecific and just wanted another Russian-speaker, they could have just added an 8th defenseman or whatever. It does raise some eyebrows when put into context like that, although I'd be curious what is actually being alleged.

Could have been someone else but if you're going down that angle an '8th dman' isn't going to cut it. You'd want a Russian who without question will be a regular on the roster. Better if it's someone Kuzmenko could be on a line with.

 

[MarkMM]

I don't know. They needed major PK help, and without Mikheyev it was looking like a swap of Motte for Lazar, which is a net loss.

As much as I wasn't too much of a fan of Mikheyev's signing (didn't think we could give away that cap space given other needs, even if he wasn't a huge overpayment), he fit the exact frame of what JR has been saying he wanted to add.

 

[Tim Calhoun]

Milstein strikes me as a Saul Goodman type so I wouldn’t put it past him to do a bunch of shenanigans and screw over his clients who don’t know better.

 

[Vector]

-reiterates what has already been said about Castonguay; no one is happy this got out and she reiterated her commitment to the Canucks
-says he thinks the Flyers are interested in Granato and says that may still be open

 

[rypper]

-reiterates what has already been said about Castonguay; no one is happy this got out and she reiterated her commitment to the Canucks
-says he thinks the Flyers are interested in Granato and says that may still be open

Would Granato move to the opposite coast for a promotion? They seem to have pretty solid roots in Vancouver. Maybe if moving to the east coast, ie Toronto would be better for Ray's broadcasting career as well?

I think a lot of names will come up and they'll end up hiring another old hockey man retread.

 

[VanJack]

When you look back at the last decade of mostly futile Canucks hockey, one thing stands out like a broken nose.

At a time when the team was mostly locked into the lottery year-after-year, they were consistently one of the most 'capped out' teams in hockey. In other words, they had one of the league highest payrolls for one of the worst products on the ice. Yet the owner rubber-stamped the Benning regime year after forgettable year.

I have no idea how 'Frankie Blueberries' runs his other businesses. But in just about every other business endeavor, the worst results combined with the highest payroll means one of two things.

Either the business fails or heads will roll--or often both at the same time.

 

[m9]

When you look back at the last decade of mostly futile Canucks hockey, one thing stands out like a broken nose.

At a time when the team was mostly locked into the lottery year-after-year, they were consistently one of the most 'capped out' teams in hockey. In other words, they had one of the league highest payrolls for one of the worst products on the ice. Yet the owner rubber-stamped the Benning regime year after forgettable year.

I have no idea how 'Frankie Blueberries' runs his other businesses. But in just about every other business endeavor, the worst results combined with the highest payroll means one of two things.

Either the business fails or heads will roll--or often both at the same time.

No big surprise, but if you do up a mock roster for next year this team is currently cap-compliant (assuming Pearson/Poolman on LTIR, Bear signed for a reasonable #, RFAs qualified) but just barely. It's shocking how little room they've left themselves - again - to actually upgrade the team. Of course as part of that, Hronek was barely with the team this year so you can probably consider that an upgrade, but this management group needs to put in some real work.

No more talk, time to get things done.

 

[Peter Griffin]

No more talk, time to get things done.

But it’s really, really hard!

 

[arttk]

No more talk, time to get things done.

weird complaint considering you can't do anything right now.

 

[bandwagonesque]

-reiterates what has already been said about Castonguay; no one is happy this got out and she reiterated her commitment to the Canucks
-says he thinks the Flyers are interested in Granato and says that may still be open

I like how at about 1:20 Don alludes to something Dhaliwal did at a gas station and he momentarily panics before regaining his composure

 

[m9]

weird complaint considering you can't do anything right now.

They've talked about fixing the cap situation for much longer than a few weeks, it's obviously an issue that stretches back since they were all hired.

And surely you understand by "time to get things done" I mean this off-season, not like by today at 5pm.

 

[RandV]

No big surprise, but if you do up a mock roster for next year this team is currently cap-compliant (assuming Pearson/Poolman on LTIR, Bear signed for a reasonable #, RFAs qualified) but just barely. It's shocking how little room they've left themselves - again - to actually upgrade the team. Of course as part of that, Hronek was barely with the team this year so you can probably consider that an upgrade, but this management group needs to put in some real work.

No more talk, time to get things done.

Do you have cap space or do you have players? You mention Hronek already, but the primary salary they've added along with him is the Miller extension, Kuzmenko, Mikheyev, and Beauvillier, who do all 'upgrade' the team. Their one cap mistake they've added is over paying Boeser on an extension, but that was a contract setup by Benning that gave them the option of walking away from or signing a bad deal.

Aside from overpaying Boeser the rest of the cap mess next season are the remaining left over Benning's mistakes: OEL, Myers, Pearson, Poolman. A chunk of it will go on IR but otherwise that's $19M. Not a whole lot they can do with that other than maybe find a taker for Myers.

 

[Peen]

The cap issue shouldn’t even be a debate in the fanbase. There shouldn’t be apologists. It’ll be two TDLs, two drafts, two July 1s.

Rutherford laughed at even a medium term re-whatever. PA’s moves have been indicative of a team trying to build a short-medium term winner. They aimed for the playoffs and missed once.

They’ve said their number one goal is cap space and flexibility for two years now.

It has to happen now. The team has to be one that you would actually bet on making the playoffs next season, and that won’t happen without moving out deadweight and reallocating that cap space towards usable players.

A homer “but if everything goes their way, OEL/Myers bounce back, Aman Malhotra type 3c, boeser 40, hog and pod both step up, Hirose top four D, and more w no regression” playoff bet is nonsense.

Jobs have to be on the line over the next six months.

 

[m9]

Do you have cap space or do you have players? You mention Hronek already, but the primary salary they've added along with him is the Miller extension, Kuzmenko, Mikheyev, and Beauvillier, who do all 'upgrade' the team. Their one cap mistake they've added is over paying Boeser on an extension, but that was a contract setup by Benning that gave them the option of walking away from or signing a bad deal.

Aside from overpaying Boeser the rest of the cap mess next season are the remaining left over Benning's mistakes: OEL, Myers, Pearson, Poolman. A chunk of it will go on IR but otherwise that's $19M. Not a whole lot they can do with that other than maybe find a taker for Myers.

Most of those players were already on the team this past year - a team that wasn't good enough. They also lost one of their top forwards in Horvat and whatever value you place on Schenn. This team as is isn't really "upgraded" from what they've had in previous seasons.

Nobody denies they were given a bad hand from the previous guy, but they sure haven't helped it to this point in terms of cap.