Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[PuckMunchkin]

The point is that a deliberate effort to lose isn't the only way to get better.

Does anyone else remember the Sabres GM's reaction to losing the loser sweepstakes for McDavid? I bet Jack Eichel remembers.

Imagine if we did both.

They had an opportunity to take a 2 year step back and try to clear the cap and reload on assets when they came in. This was 1st of those years.

But its pointless now.

They no longer have the leeway to take steps back. This is their team now. They will sink or swim with how this team does.

I fear what kind of dwerps Aquaman hires to perform the rebuild when it gets to that. Could be as soon as next summer if they fail to make the playoffs.

 

[andora]

Imagine if we did both.

They had an opportunity to take a 2 year step back and try to clear the cap and reload on assets when they came in. This was 1st of those years.

But its pointless now.

They no longer have the leeway to take steps back. This is their team now. They will sink or swim with how this team does.

I fear what kind of dwerps Aquaman hires to perform the rebuild when it gets to that. Could be as soon as next summer if they fail to make the playoffs.

I am simply quoting this to emphasize my appreciation for the term dwerp.. love it

And do agree.. the thought of who the new would be for that is.. ugh

 

[racerjoe]

The word retool is interesting. I think we are retooling, just not the way some on this board would like. I don't think management wanted to take a step back. I don't think we would have taken a step back if our goaltending had just not fallen off a cliff.

When I say that I need to emphasis I don't think that means this team was good, I thought we would be 5th in the Div from the start (check the predictions thread), just I thought our results with the goaltending we have seen for 2 plus years would have masked enough to put us in bubble area.

I think this is a bigger offseason than last year. However I think there is more options that have opened up, and the off ice drama has been settled with management bringing in their coach, and the team being in place.

I also think that is why we will see less JR. I think he wanted to be out front to catch bullets earlier when he was trying to force the hand of ownership. If he starts to come out front again, that is when I would worry.

 

[m9]

The word retool is interesting. I think we are retooling, just not the way some on this board would like. I don't think management wanted to take a step back. I don't think we would have taken a step back if our goaltending had just not fallen off a cliff.

When I say that I need to emphasis I don't think that means this team was good, I thought we would be 5th in the Div from the start (check the predictions thread), just I thought our results with the goaltending we have seen for 2 plus years would have masked enough to put us in bubble area.

I think this is a bigger offseason than last year. However I think there is more options that have opened up, and the off ice drama has been settled with management bringing in their coach, and the team being in place.

I also think that is why we will see less JR. I think he wanted to be out front to catch bullets earlier when he was trying to force the hand of ownership. If he starts to come out front again, that is when I would worry.

Why would you term it a retool, or what does that word mean to you?

I see a team that under this management group as well as the previous one, is trying to make the playoffs every year. Most of their decisions have been with that goal in mind, and only when it is obvious that they can't achieve that goal in the season do they make moves that are typical of most non-playoff teams like selling players.

I see a team that has consistently for most of the last decade tried to be playoff team and has simply failed to achieve their goal.

There's nothing to me that really signifies a "retool". They are changing the players on the roster, but their goal every season remains the same.

 

[racerjoe]

Why would you term it a retool, or what does that word mean to you?

I see a team that under this management group as well as the previous one, is trying to make the playoffs every year. Most of their decisions have been with that goal in mind, and only when it is obvious that they can't achieve that goal in the season do they make moves that are typical of most non-playoff teams like selling players.

I see a team that has consistently for most of the last decade tried to be playoff team and has simply failed to achieve their goal.

There's nothing to me that really signifies a "retool". They are changing the players on the roster, but their goal every season remains the same.

Retool to me is two fold, its an extra level of roster turnover. The classic retool people think of is closer to a rebuild model. Its what we see when a good team who has had success hits cap crunch/age out of certain key players. They sell what they can and will often take a step back.

The second part of a retool is getting younger and again using the classic retool we see this is because most of the value in assets comes back too young to replace what was sold and you need a year or two for the talent to catch up.

The Canucks are aiming to not take that step back. It is possible, just very hard. It is much more about doing what we did with Horvat, where in the end we changed Horvat for a younger defensemen, and for our purposes Beauvillier, to contribute now. It should be noted I don't think the Canucks are afraid to take back picks, as long as the believe they can do something with these picks. Like the first for Hronek, or the 3rd for Dermont.

You can retool and still have the goal to make the playoffs. I think Florida actually did this last year, when they traded thier aging out players (contract wise and older players) for a younger better asset.

I think in the past the Hawks did this twice to success, and yes the Pens did it under JR, its just not what we normally think of as a retool.

 

[RandV]

Again you can go through the year end conferences for teams in the league and who attends is highly variable. The GM is always there unless he's out the door like Treliving but even then they often still do the year end press conference (see Gillis). The coach is often there but not always. Sometimes upper Hockey Ops management (like president) is there but typically much less than GM and coach. Coupled with Rutherford explicitly saying he was handing these things over the GM office and taking a step back from media makes it completely a nothing story the vancouver media has blown completely out of proportion.

Drance saying things like well there are questions on the practice facility that a GM shouldn't have to answer etc. If you feel the proper person isn't there to answer then don't ask the question in that press conference. Instead fire off questions to other via text/e-mail. Then if you don't get a response mention something.

Yeah I don't see any issue with Rutherford not being there, he was brought in first as the senior guy but Alvin is the GM and should be taking over. I think if you just look at it from a Canucks perspective under the Benning regime Linden while President was kind of brought in to be the public face of the Canucks so of course he was there front and center, and then when Benning own the petty power struggle the team simply didn't have a President. Then prior to that Gillis wore both hats being team President and GM.

So a long running tradition of Canuck team Presidents being there on some technicalities, but it's not necessarily the norm.

 

[m9]

Retool to me is two fold, its an extra level of roster turnover. The classic retool people think of is closer to a rebuild model. Its what we see when a good team who has had success hits cap crunch/age out of certain key players. They sell what they can and will often take a step back.

The second part of a retool is getting younger and again using the classic retool we see this is because most of the value in assets comes back too young to replace what was sold and you need a year or two for the talent to catch up.

The Canucks are aiming to not take that step back. It is possible, just very hard. It is much more about doing what we did with Horvat, where in the end we changed Horvat for a younger defensemen, and for our purposes Beauvillier, to contribute now. It should be noted I don't think the Canucks are afraid to take back picks, as long as the believe they can do something with these picks. Like the first for Hronek, or the 3rd for Dermont.

You can retool and still have the goal to make the playoffs. I think Florida actually did this last year, when they traded thier aging out players (contract wise and older players) for a younger better asset.

I think in the past the Hawks did this twice to success, and yes the Pens did it under JR, its just not what we normally think of as a retool.

I agree with your terminology on the retool, I just don't think it's really happening here. It's also a pretty vague term, though I think that it probably should mean the team is okay with taking a brief step back by doing things like clearing contracts and/or getting younger.

The only key player whose left the team since management arrived is Horvat (27) while the key players they've brought in are Beauvillier (25) Kuzmenko (26) Hronek (25) Mikheyev (27). There doesn't appear to be much of a retool going in terms of the large contracts/key players.. we are talking about a bunch of guys in the same age group.

I just see it as new management has come in and want to turnover a large part of the roster because that's what many new managements do. I think the goal of making the playoffs has remained the same.

I think if you just look at it from a Canucks perspective under the Benning regime Linden while President was kind of brought in to be the public face of the Canucks so of course he was there front and center

I would argue that this exact thing was a big part of what JR was brought in to do as well, though.

 

[racerjoe]

I agree with your terminology on the retool, I just don't think it's really happening here. It's also a pretty vague term, though I think that it probably should mean the team is okay with taking a brief step back by doing things like clearing contracts and/or getting younger.

The only key player whose left the team since management arrived is Horvat (27) while the key players they've brought in are Beauvillier (25) Kuzmenko (26) Hronek (25) Mikheyev (27). There doesn't appear to be much of a retool going in terms of the large contracts/key players.. we are talking about a bunch of guys in the same age group.

I just see it as new management has come in and want to turnover a large part of the roster because that's what many new managements do. I think the goal of making the playoffs has remained the same.



I would argue that this exact thing was a big part of what JR was brought in to do as well, though.

I agree and disagree. I think when you had a team where we were, some of those important players just suck... so getting rid of Hamonic, I mean he is supposed to be a top 4 guy...

I also think they clearly couldn't get rid of OEL... who would be another one of those guys, but they will get rid of Myers who would be a top 4 guy.

So we have started, there is just more to move.

I would agree with those who say we should have been more aggressive.

 

[carrotshirt]

Lots of arguing from the retool side that a rebuild is not a good idea.

...is anybody pitching a rebuild? Not really that I've seen.

I think we're talking more about retool to compete ASAP vs continue building.

Why not bottom out this season and trade Horvat and JT after the start the team had? 4 first rounders in a stacked draft, oooh, Pete will be mad that the team has some actual direction and is clearly forging a path to success!

At worst that should be two impact players from the draft that can slot in within the next couple years. Hell, a top 5 pick might contribute this upcoming season. Sign a free agent 2C and a defender or two, will be more cap space with Miller's cash off the books.

We don't have enough core pieces to be a winning team and we don't have the assets to trade for more core pieces, so keep building through the draft and if Pettersson can't see that this is a better way for the team to become a real contender with only a little more short term pain, maybe we shouldn't have made a current roster player our GM.

BUT AQUA

 

[Diogenes92]

Confirming that Myers Bonus is paid in September finally

Benning allowing the SB in the final year and having it in the 2nd payout window in September.

Dumbest GM in history.

I’d file a negligence lawsuit against him

This guy has zero pushback against players agent in structuring contracts. How do you just let agents walk all over you as a GM?

Because JB truly believed that Myers was a cornerstone piece thay would solidify their push for a cup.

Just as he said that Gudbranson was a franchise level talent and that Sutter was a foundational piece moving forward.

Easily the worst GM in Canucks history and definitely top 3 worst GMs in NHL history.

The group of posters that defended him for years and years while at the same time being toxic towards non-comformists should have a special BenningBro badge added to their profiles to commemorate those awful times.

 

[Diogenes92]

Lots of arguing from the retool side that a rebuild is not a good idea.

...is anybody pitching a rebuild? Not really that I've seen.

Ithink we're talking more about retool to compete ASAP vs continue building.

Why not bottom out this season and trade Horvat and JT after the start the team had? 4 first rounders in a stacked draft, oooh, Pete will be mad that the team has some actual direction and is clearly forging a path to success!

At worst that should be two impact players from the draft that can slot in within the next couple years. Hell, a top 5 pick might contribute this upcoming season. Sign a free agent 2C and a defender or two, will be more cap space with Miller's cash off the books.

We don't have enough core pieces to be a winning team and we don't have the assets to trade for more core pieces, so keep building through the draft and if Pettersson can't see that this is a better way for the team to become a real contender with only a little more short term pain, maybe we shouldn't have made a current roster player our GM.

BUT AQUA

I have been in favour of both a soft-rebuild of 2 to 3 years where they put an emphasis on building instead of competing.

I would also support a more drastic shift in philosophy and a 5 year plan to truly change this team's fortunes and actually compete for a cup and not just pretend to.

As it stands, we have to wait and see if Petey and Hughes can finally do what everybody has been saying for 3+ years and actually carry this team to the promised land.


It would have been perfectly reasonable and even sensible to focus on getting as many draft picks as possible this year. Selling off Miller and Horvat, retaining on veterans to get mod round picks, trading Kuzmenko for a king's ransom, and most importantly, dropping down in the standings to up their chances of drafting in the top 3.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

At worst that should be two impact players from the draft that can slot in within the next couple years. Hell, a top 5 pick might contribute this upcoming season. Sign a free agent 2C and a defender or two, will be more cap space with Miller's cash off the books.

At worst it's ZERO impact players, and in no way does Millers cap allow for a 2c even remotely close to his level, let alone a defender to boot.

They still have their pick, and turned Bo into a younger Dman. A lot of what people are clamoring for has already begun, just in a realistic fashion.

 

[andora]

At worst it's ZERO impact players, and in no way does Millers cap allow for a 2c even remotely close to his level, let alone a defender to boot.

They still have their pick, and turned Bo into a younger Dman. A lot of what people are clamoring for has already begun, just in a realistic fashion.

But not as shiny

 

[Bleach Clean]

Yeah I don't see any issue with Rutherford not being there, he was brought in first as the senior guy but Alvin is the GM and should be taking over. I think if you just look at it from a Canucks perspective under the Benning regime Linden while President was kind of brought in to be the public face of the Canucks so of course he was there front and center, and then when Benning own the petty power struggle the team simply didn't have a President. Then prior to that Gillis wore both hats being team President and GM.

So a long running tradition of Canuck team Presidents being there on some technicalities, but it's not necessarily the norm.

That's the history, yes, but you're superimposing the history to the JR regime change: Which did not align with that history. And so, I don't think we are acknowledging first how JR himself broke from those norms during the initial years of his tenure here. Then to now even surpassing those norms to being completely absent. His pattern does not align in either case.

 

[andora]

He just wanted to be the hated one until bruce was gone. Once that shitstorm was dealt with he is letting allvin be the likeable face because of how important it is in this market to like the gm

I dont see anythimg deeper than this. JR played the villain so PA didnt have to

 

[Bleach Clean]

I've been musing on the decision to keep Miller over Horvat. It must have been a very difficult call given the age of Pettersson/Hughes, Miller's personality, Miller finding a new level post trade here, Horvat's captaincy etc... But just looking at who was more likely to bring more for the short-term, they may have made the right call... And that is not something I would have thought in the summer.

Therefore, this is good on management. Ideally, they would have had the cap for both, but given their situation and the 2 players, it was the right move.

 

[Bleach Clean]

He just wanted to be the hated one until bruce was gone. Once that shitstorm was dealt with he is letting allvin be the likeable face because of how important it is in this market to like the gm

I dont see anythimg deeper than this. JR played the villain so PA didnt have to

Let's entertain this idea for a moment: Let's say he did want to be the focal point for media attention during the public feud with Bruce. Ok. Was this his design right from being hired? Was he angling to be the face immediately because his long-term plan was to oust Bruce?

Or, was he the face of the regime change being the only one with name recognition and experience from the outset? Or, something else entirely?

 

[andora]

Let's entertain this idea for a moment: Let's say he did want to be the focal point for media attention during the public feud with Bruce. Ok. Was this his design right from being hired? Was he angling to be the face immediately because his long-term plan was to oust Bruce?

Or, was he the face of the regime change being the only one with name recognition and experience from the outset? Or, something else entirely?

I personally think its as simple as

"Hey PA.. i will be the asshole up front with the Bruce thing so you dont have to get out publically on the wrong foot"

 

[Vector]

 

[Bleach Clean]

I personally think its as simple as

"Hey PA.. i will be the asshole up front with the Bruce thing so you dont have to get out publically on the wrong foot"

I understand, but was that his mode from the outset? Like, right when he started? Did he know that as soon as he was hired that he would be going to war with Bruce?

 

[andora]

I understand, but was that his mode from the outset? Like, right when he started? Did he know that as soon as he was hired that he would be going to war with Bruce?

No it was probably when they started like shit

 

[Bleach Clean]

No it was probably when they started like shit

Alright, but he was front and centre from when he started so how would we distinguish whether he got up front to take the heat with Boudreau, vs just remaining up front from his original mode?

This is why I don't think him being up front/vocal was just tied to Boudreau. His initial mode was the same. Therefore now, him going completely dark does not tie just to the Boudreau firing to me. Him going dark has to signal a bigger shift behind the scenes.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

At worst it's ZERO impact players, and in no way does Millers cap allow for a 2c even remotely close to his level, let alone a defender to boot.

They still have their pick, and turned Bo into a younger Dman. A lot of what people are clamoring for has already begun, just in a realistic fashion.

Most of us are clamoring for balance, as in re-fill the prospect pool, clear cap and build a team that can win long term. None of which has happened. They turned Bo into a 25 year old dman who is going a to get a big raise, on a team that has no cap space.

So no what a lot of us are asking for has not begun and I dunno wtf your talking about with realistic fashion.

 

[vancityluongo]

Pulling this from Around the League here:

Interesting read.

Uh, yeah, that's interesting.

"Glasberg’s current clients include Pittsburgh Penguins coach Mike Sullivan, New York Rangers coach Gerard Gallant, Vancouver Canucks president of hockey operations Jim Rutherford and former Chicago Blackhawks general manager Stan Bowman.

Glasberg’s clients and former clients have landed jobs in searches Glasberg has been party to from the inside."

___________

"But Rutherford hired Glasberg in May 2021 to represent him for potential NHL management opportunities. Sources say Glasberg advised Canucks owner Francesco Aquilini on his search and Rutherford was hired by the Canucks on Dec. 9, 2021, four days after former GM Jim Benning was fired.

In addition to Sullivan, Glasberg effectively represents the entire Penguins’ coaching staff with Mike Vellucci and Todd Reirden also listed as clients. Sources say Glasberg has recently angled with Fenway Sports Group to participate in filling the Penguins’ front office vacancies."

________________

There was a rumour at the time that Mike Forde - another prominent executive head hunter type - was the one leading the charge for the Canucks. That was pushed by Sat and Sekeres.

 

[vancityluongo]

There are some very interesting names represented by Glasberg - a few of whom have been thrown around as names to watch for in this market.

Coaches | North America & Europe | PBI Sports & Entertainment

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Gronborg, Velucci, and Rierden were all talked about here before Tocchet.

This sort of stuff fascinates me.