Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[m9]

Not a big deal the president isn't speaking at the end of the year. Unless there is a management or coaching change I don't see why that input would be that important to anyone. Neither of those organizational changes are happening. The organization can be represented by GM and coach in this case with no issue from my point of view.

For instance, I very much remember Nonis at a single podium for his year end press conferences. Benning in his last one was just him and Green. Same the year before that. Essentially what I'm saying is when things are stable in the front office it's the GM and coach that handles this.

Couldn't disagree more. The President no-showing this press-conference is a very large deal, especially coming off an awful season and one where that same President was muzzled.

When Linden was President, it was himself & Benning up there. Referencing the recent years where there's no President to normalize yesterday makes no sense.

I'm not convinced this management is as stable as you think. There's no guarantee JR is back in his current role, that's for sure.

 

[kranuck]

Demko would return a nice haul.

Silovs showed well. And it won't be a big ask for him to simply be better than Martin or Delia.

The entire point of the rebuild approach is to accumulate draft picks and build depth in the organization so that they can sustain a high level of success. This year's draft is effing stacked. Would've been the perfect time to make lots of picks

It beats the strategy of cutting corners and trading away assets to speed up the competitive curve of a team that is currently bottom 3rd of the league.

This whole: "BuT peTeY anD hUghES" argument is a cheap copout and doesn't factor in that the team is starting from the bottom.

It doesn't matter what they do in the short term. They are going to struggle to make the playoffs In the coming years. May as well build depth if you're going to miss.

Demko wouldn't get much return. Goalies don't.

Goalies also have high variance and betting the team on a guy who has played a handful of games at a high level is really high risk.

I'm pretty sure the point of a rebuild is to say rebuild because the magic R word will save them.
Just say it enough and you win the cup. it's why Arizona is a powerhouse.

Other teams are just gonna dump picks in a stacked draft? The best guy they had to trade got a mid first and an okay prospect. Who else is getting traded? They tried with miller, didn't get what they wanted. They tried with Boeser, couldn't find anyone. We don't even know who else they watned to dump.

It's jsut mindless whining and an arrogant insistence that somehow you know better. It's dumb, and it's just turned into an excuse for endless whining about anything and everything.

They finally go out and make a couple decent trades for the first time since the benning era began and people won't stop bitching for 2 minutes to actually think about the trade.

You aren't drafting an entire team. No one does that. It's not a real model for building. Colorado didn't purposely make the team worse because they needed a partner for Makar. They didn't go into a full rebuild because Duchene left. THey made hockey moves, they improved the team.

Stop whining about not getting your f***ing magic r word and whatever invented controversies you can come up with.

Couldn't disagree more. The President no-showing this press-conference is a very large deal, especially coming off an awful season and one where that same President was muzzled.

When Linden was President, it was himself & Benning up there. Referencing the recent years where there's no President to normalize yesterday makes no sense.

I'm not convinced this management is as stable as you think. There's no guarantee JR is back in his current role, that's for sure.

Yup, he was right there next to his guy.

tell me again what a great president Linden was. Hired one of the absolute worst GMs in NHL history.

Was JR muzzled or did he take a step back because people were just bitching about how Alvin wasn't around?

Maybe he's sick of people telling him he needs to do the mgaic R word.

 

[Diogenes92]

Demko wouldn't get much return. Goalies don't.

Goalies also have high variance and betting the team on a guy who has played a handful of games at a high level is really high risk.

I'm pretty sure the point of a rebuild is to say rebuild because the magic R word will save them.
Just say it enough and you win the cup. it's why Arizona is a powerhouse.

Other teams are just gonna dump picks in a stacked draft? The best guy they had to trade got a mid first and an okay prospect. Who else is getting traded? They tried with miller, didn't get what they wanted. They tried with Boeser, couldn't find anyone. We don't even know who else they watned to dump.

It's jsut mindless whining and an arrogant insistence that somehow you know better. It's dumb, and it's just turned into an excuse for endless whining about anything and everything.

They finally go out and make a couple decent trades for the first time since the benning era began and people won't stop bitching for 2 minutes to actually think about the trade.

You aren't drafting an entire team. No one does that. It's not a real model for building. Colorado didn't purposely make the team worse because they needed a partner for Makar. They didn't go into a full rebuild because Duchene left. THey made hockey moves, they improved the team.

Stop whining about not getting your f***ing magic r word and whatever invented controversies you can come up with.


Yup, he was right there next to his guy.

tell me again what a great president Linden was. Hired one of the absolute worst GMs in NHL history.

Was JR muzzled or did he take a step back because people were just bitching about how Alvin wasn't around?

Maybe he's sick of people telling him he needs to do the mgaic R word.

Sounds like you're the one whining.

And most of what you said is a bunch of BS.

Fans wanting a rebuild is not about wanting the "Arizona model".

Its about realizing that the team has zero depth and not enough assets to do anything meaningful.

Bedard or Fantilli would've been a lot more meaningful than a retool.

We don't know how the Hronek trade will even turn out so stop calling it a win without any evidence other than an injured player.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Dhaliwal said in the last 48 hours that Pettersson will Tkachuk is way out if the team is not competitive next year.

And nobody should need media confirmation on this - every interview Pettersson has done in the past couple years has basically screamed this from the rooftops.

Dhaliwal has also said, in the very interview we have both referenced, that if the Canucks get him signed in this offseason, then he's not rethinking things in December should the team falter. Meaning, the contract, once signed, is a deterrent to him asking out. I agree.

In that same radio hit, Dhaliwal said the agents and management are both intent on getting something done. That there is a willingness to negotiate now, and not delay.

You are propping up a scarecrow, and if he signs this offseason, you will be the first person I bring this up with afterward. If he does not re-sign this offseason, then you have every right to intimate that he has one foot out the door/call me out on it.

 

[MS]

Dhaliwal has also said, in the interview we have both referenced, that if the Canucks get him signed in this offseason, then he's not rethinking things in December should the team falter. Meaning, the contract, once signed, is a deterrent to him asking out. I agree.

You are propping up a scarecrow, and if he signs this offseason, you will be the first person I bring this up with afterward. If he does not re-sign this offseason, then you have every right to intimate that he has one foot out the door/call me out on it.

The reason we're seeing the decisions we're seeing (that everyone is complaining about) is in large part to convince Pettersson to sign this summer.

Pettersson would not be signing this summer if they'd left Boudreau in place with a no-structure team trying for high draft picks. And he's made that pretty clear.

Obviously if they can sign him then he has much less leverage to force his way out if things do go poorly after that.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The reason we're seeing the decisions we're seeing (that everyone is complaining about) is in large part to convince Pettersson to sign this summer.

Pettersson would not be signing this summer if they'd left Boudreau in place with a no-structure team trying for high draft picks. And he's made that pretty clear.

Obviously if they can sign him then he has much less leverage to force his way out if things do go poorly after that.

Again, you and I have no earthly idea what will cause or not cause Pettersson to sign. To say he would not be signing this summer because of X immediately should cause one to question your logic here. You simply do not know.

I do agree on referencing Dhaliwal though. He stands independent of both of our biases. If we hear other third party legitimate rumours, then I'm on board with taking them into account. Your supposition? No, sorry. I respect your opinion, but I think you lack the proper evidence to come to the assertions you have reached here.

To re-iterate, if he re-signs this offseason, I will be bringing this up with you. And if he does not, feel free to bring it up with me. I'll take no offense to it. Have a good one.

 

[MS]

Again, you and I have no earthly idea what will cause or not cause Pettersson to sign. To say he would not be signing this summer because of X immediately should cause one to question your logic here. You simply do not know.

I do agree on referencing Dhaliwal though. He stands independent of both of our biases. If we hear other third party legitimate rumours, then I'm on board with taking them into account. Your supposition? No, sorry. I respect your opinion, but I think you lack the proper evidence to come to the assertions you have reached here.

To re-iterate, if he re-signs this offseason, I will be bringing this up with you. And if he does not, feel free to bring it up with me. I'll take no offense to it. Have a good one.

Nobody 100% 'knows' anything.

But Pettersson has made his feelings pretty clear in interviews and that Dhaliwal bit confirms what everyone paying attention already strongly suspected.

If he re-signs this offseason I'm not somehow proven wrong when I've said that the Tocchet hiring and the focus on improve compete and structure and long-term success and doing things like the Hronek deal were all with a view toward keeping Pettersson/Hughes/Demko happy and committed to this team.

 

[Bleach Clean]

There are a couple things here, first, you are essentially outlining a retool type of move here. Second, you are making the assumption that some of us are totally cool and loving the Hronek deal.

So I think the retool type of move is fine. The probability of us being able to sign Severson is probably pretty low because of how much cap we have and how in demand RHD are. I wouldn't bank my retool on a move that has a low probability of happening.

I am pretty disappointed with trading away a 1st and a 2nd so I am not even going to bother to even pretend I am a fan of that move.

Ok, I think we've got to somewhere here. You would classify a Severson signing as a re-tool move. I would categorize the prioritizing of picks + FA signings as a rebuild move. In essence, you're taking on perhaps a lesser player and the real meat is from the draft. Where as with the Hronek deal, the real meat is the player and the pick is used as capital.

So are we really that far apart in what we each want? I don't think so. You even dislike the Hronek trade, so we are aligned there as well.

And you're right, banking on Severson is a low probability move. There are other options. Dumba, Holl, Klingberg, a trade etc... This increases the likelihood of landing a lesser RHD solution, without risking the pick.

The lowest probability is still, to my mind, forcing a re-tool with negative cap, no pipeline and anchor contracts. However, if you have to do it, go this way instead bleeding what little future capital you have left. That's where the true sustainability is going to come from.

 

[Breakers]

I dont think anything this management team has done is a re-tool

 

[m9]

Again, you and I have no earthly idea what will cause or not cause Pettersson to sign. To say he would not be signing this summer because of X immediately should cause one to question your logic here. You simply do not know.

I do agree on referencing Dhaliwal though. He stands independent of both of our biases. If we hear other third party legitimate rumours, then I'm on board with taking them into account. Your supposition? No, sorry. I respect your opinion, but I think you lack the proper evidence to come to the assertions you have reached here.

To re-iterate, if he re-signs this offseason, I will be bringing this up with you. And if he does not, feel free to bring it up with me. I'll take no offense to it. Have a good one.

Agreed.

It's pretty rare in the NHL for guys to demand trades because the team isn't winning enough. Tkachuk keeps getting referenced, but he left with the Flames coming off a successful season - he just wanted to play in the USA. This team has been a disaster for a decade but had no problems signing Hughes & Miller to deals with Horvat seemingly wanting to come back as well.

There's really nothing to suggest the "win now" moves have been simply to keep EP happy. It's an oddly-crafted narrative based on nothing.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Hockey includes more than 5 on 5.

Miller is shit shorthanded and is beneficiary to a really good group of players on the PP.

Not saying he does not make the PP better. He does, he is a big part of it, but forwards that can produce on the PP are not really a rare commodity.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Demko wouldn't get much return. Goalies don't.

Goalies also have high variance and betting the team on a guy who has played a handful of games at a high level is really high risk.

I'm pretty sure the point of a rebuild is to say rebuild because the magic R word will save them.
Just say it enough and you win the cup. it's why Arizona is a powerhouse.

Other teams are just gonna dump picks in a stacked draft? The best guy they had to trade got a mid first and an okay prospect. Who else is getting traded? They tried with miller, didn't get what they wanted. They tried with Boeser, couldn't find anyone. We don't even know who else they watned to dump.

It's jsut mindless whining and an arrogant insistence that somehow you know better. It's dumb, and it's just turned into an excuse for endless whining about anything and everything.

They finally go out and make a couple decent trades for the first time since the benning era began and people won't stop bitching for 2 minutes to actually think about the trade.

You aren't drafting an entire team. No one does that. It's not a real model for building. Colorado didn't purposely make the team worse because they needed a partner for Makar. They didn't go into a full rebuild because Duchene left. THey made hockey moves, they improved the team.

Stop whining about not getting your f***ing magic r word and whatever invented controversies you can come up with.


Yup, he was right there next to his guy.

tell me again what a great president Linden was. Hired one of the absolute worst GMs in NHL history.

Was JR muzzled or did he take a step back because people were just bitching about how Alvin wasn't around?

Maybe he's sick of people telling him he needs to do the mgaic R word.

Seriously.


Can you try to control your self a bit.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Nobody 100% 'knows' anything.

But Pettersson has made his feelings pretty clear in interviews and that Dhaliwal bit confirms what everyone paying attention already strongly suspected.

If he re-signs this offseason I'm not somehow proven wrong when I've said that the Tocchet hiring and the focus on improve compete and structure and long-term success and doing things like the Hronek deal were all with a view toward keeping Pettersson/Hughes/Demko happy and committed to this team.

You're free to think about the degree to which hiring Tocchet (A move that was already so clearly telegraphed regardless of Pettersson's own happiness) and trading for Hornek (while losing Horvat, I wonder how that registers?) affects Pettersson's decision making enough to re-sign or not re-sign.

Like if they had given Hornek's money to a proper RHD in FA, is that less encouraging, more encouraging, level or irrelevant to Pettersson's intent to re-sign? I don't know. You think you do. That's fine.

I don't post much here anymore, but I've followed things as well. Paying attention. I have not come to the same conclusions you have reached here re: Pettersson. So yes, if he re-signs this offseason, I'm going to assert that your supposition was incorrect (because he's not waiting for the team to win or falter in season before deciding). If he does not, you can assert that my read on the situation was incorrect. All fair.

 

[gringo]

Yeah, I'm getting rather tired of the incoherent screeching about anything and everything.

Conspiracy theories about forcing Larscheid out.
Blaming them for Doerrie getting upset about getting fired, absent any evidence that her claim has any merit.
Speculation about how Rutherford is being so petty and whiny and cowardly and half a dozen other things because he didn't want to attend the end of season availability, which was whining about how Alvin doens't do anything when Rutherford did show up.
Whining endlessly about how they need dmen then whining endlessly when they go get a dman.
Constant unending whining about ownership
Obsession with the magic word that is rebuild
Insane plans to somehow finish top 3 with a roster that is simply nowhere near that quality.

and on and on and on and on and on and on.


Hockey includes more than 5 on 5.

Yea I mean what does the average fan have to complain about really? It’s been 50+ magical years with this wonderful team. Can’t wait for the next 50.

 

[arttk]

Chytil had 3 less even strength points than Miller.

Most people thought that. I didn't and hindsight has show I was right.

You are the only person as far as I know, who thought Chytil was a cap dump.


It makes no sense that you think that doesn't align with our retool window.

I mean Garland has more even strength point that all our players last season, doesn't mean that if you give him more PP time the points will come.

There was a big debate about that deal and from my memory it was split. People were not sold at all on Lundvist because he was THE PIECE and Chytil was the cap dump.

I never said it doesn't align, so that's why i am confused why you were saying that. Not sure how that got miscommunicated.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I mean Garland has more even strength point that all our players last season, doesn't mean that if you give him more PP time the points will come.

Well. We dont know. I actually would have given him an extended look on our first PP unit.

There was a big debate about that deal and from my memory it was split. People were not sold at all on Lundvist because he was THE PIECE and Chytil was the cap dump.

No. Chytil was never a cap dump.

Pick (1st) prospect (Lundqvist) and player to insert in to the lineup right now was Chytil. This was the ask.

I never said it doesn't align, so that's why i am confused why you were saying that. Not sure how that got miscommunicated.

Ah oki.

Sorry. I totally misunderstood your post then.

 

[arttk]

Ok, I think we've got to somewhere here. You would classify a Severson signing as a re-tool move. I would categorize the prioritizing of picks + FA signings as a rebuild move. In essence, you're taking on perhaps a lesser player and the real meat is from the draft. Where as with the Hronek deal, the real meat is the player and the pick is used as capital.

So are we really that far apart in what we each want? I don't think so. You even dislike the Hronek trade, so we are aligned there as well.

And you're right, banking on Severson is a low probability move. There are other options. Dumba, Holl, Klingberg, a trade etc... This increases the likelihood of landing a lesser RHD solution, without risking the pick.

The lowest probability is still, to my mind, forcing a re-tool with negative cap, no pipeline and anchor contracts. However, if you have to do it, go this way instead bleeding what little future capital you have left. That's where the true sustainability is going to come from.

I think the Hroenk trade only makes sense if they are right and he plays like a first pairing guy, otherwise i really do not like that deal. I mean, I get why they made the move but I am really bothered by it, maybe if the 2nd wasn't invovled but a 3rd I would be fine.

Sustainability is also a big concern of mine, like if we ended up with a 8th OA I probably would feel better but we are drafting at 11 and the bust rate is a bit higher leaving us with less of a backup.

I think we are still judging something midstream, I imagine they are trying to get picks back for Boeser and Garland and whoever before the draft and if they are successful then I suppose that would alleviate the sustainability concerns.

Well. We dont know. I actually would have given him an extended look on our first PP unit.

No. Chytil was never a cap dump.

Pick (1st) prospect (Lundqvist) and player to insert in to the lineup right now was Chytil. This was the ask.


Ah oki.

Sorry. I totally misunderstood your post then.

Chytile was always treated as a cap dump, check the old threads. Even NYR fans treated him like a cap dump.

 

[Orr4Norris]

If Petey wants out it will be because this organization has been a gong show not because of the direction of the team. Apparently he liked Bruce so I doubt he was enamoured with the way they tossed his ass to the curb in an embarrassing fashion. Off ice, it’s been a huge distraction for years now…and that hasn’t gotten better with new management. It has somehow gotten worse. To suggest a new coach and some wins in garbage time is going to change his mind, is ridiculous.

Then again, maybe it’s completely hopeless anyways. Maybe he simply wants to play in a different market? Live in a large market with anonymity? Wear flips and shorts to practices?

Nobody knows what is going through his mind. And no, he is not stupid enough to talk to the media about it.

Bringing up Tkachuk is weird, considering that the he did not leave due to the competitiveness of the Flames. He left because he wanted to play somewhere else.

The Canucks should throw an 11x8 offer his way this summer. That will give them their answer. Then move on or move forward.

But when it comes to how they should construct the team moving forward, and how they should go about building a contender, they should not be worried about whether it will make him happy. If they do their job right, he’ll be happy.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Chytile was always treated as a cap dump, check the old threads. Even NYR fans treated him like a cap dump.

Rumor: - Seravalli: Rangers been all over JT Miller

It's not a fair comparable Mainly because the reason why ROR returned so little was because the sabres owner made it CLEAR that he was not paying his 7 million dollar signing bonus and wanted him traded before then I agree it’s not a perfect comparable but it’s better than Keith Yandle.

forums.hfboards.com

Went through 3 pages of this... Nobody thought Chytil was a cap dump.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I think the Hroenk trade only makes sense if they are right and he plays like a first pairing guy, otherwise i really do not like that deal. I mean, I get why they made the move but I am really bothered by it, maybe if the 2nd wasn't invovled but a 3rd I would be fine.

Sustainability is also a big concern of mine, like if we ended up with a 8th OA I probably would feel better but we are drafting at 11 and the bust rate is a bit higher leaving us with less of a backup.

I think we are still judging something midstream, I imagine they are trying to get picks back for Boeser and Garland and whoever before the draft and if they are successful then I suppose that would alleviate the sustainability concerns.

Picks are cheapest at the deadline. They missed the boat on that one, if that's what they were trying to do.

I think our exchange highlights a key issue with the back and forth between the re-tool and rebuild camps here: We mold the definition of a re-tool to fit this non-standard situation, but we don't do the same for a rebuild. Instead, the idea of a rebuild is held static, even if it still prioritizes the draft and supplements via FA. (And does not tank)

If the same allowance was given to those that would have prioritized the draft, short term, then we wouldn't have some of the irrational comments we have seen here. Mold the rebuild to fit too. It's just about asset priority.

 

[kranuck]

Yea I mean what does the average fan have to complain about really? It’s been 50+ magical years with this wonderful team. Can’t wait for the next 50.

I'm fine with complaining but people are just inventing stuff to be pissy about and it's super lame.

Currently we have people inventing conspiracies about Larscheid and Rutherford feuding with the media. Every more is treated like a screwup immediately. People are whining about them not taking for Bedard when they were never even close to being a position to really do so.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

If Petey wants out it will be because this organization has been a gong show not because of the direction of the team. Apparently he liked Bruce so I doubt he was enamoured with the way they tossed his ass to the curb in an embarrassing fashion. Off ice, it’s been a huge distraction for years now…and that hasn’t gotten better with new management. It has somehow gotten worse. To suggest a new coach and some wins in garbage time is going to change his mind, is ridiculous.

Then again, maybe it’s completely hopeless anyways. Maybe he simply wants to play in a different market? Live in a large market with anonymity? Wear flips and shorts to practices?

Nobody knows what is going through his mind. And no, he is not stupid enough to talk to the media about it.

Bringing up Tkachuk is weird, considering that the he did not leave due to the competitiveness of the Flames. He left because he wanted to play somewhere else.

The Canucks should throw an 11x8 offer his way this summer. That will give them their answer. Then move on or move forward.

But when it comes to how they should construct the team moving forward, and how they should go about building a contender, they should not be worried about whether it will make him happy. If they do their job right, he’ll be happy.

As far as EP is concerned, the coaching change has been a bonus for him (and the other core players)..Their ice time and responsibilities went up ..EP eclipsed 100 points...Whats not to like?

All of the players liked Bruce, but clearly, nobody on the team had any idea of where they had to be on the ice..or the procedures for basic puck support...Judging from the players comments in the post season presser, all of the players have welcomed the accountability that Tocchet is demanding.....They've also committed themselves to playing a system , and being fit enough to execute it.

 

[kranuck]

2011 team was a retool more than a rebuild. Move on to the younger stars, make a (ridiculous good) hockey trade to get a huge part of core.

The difference is the previous GMs weren't completely and totally incompetent so the team actually had some talent coming up and no ridiculously awful contracts handcuffing them.

I feel like management gets too much shit for trying to work with what they've got instead of throwing in the towel. Remember, they haven't been doing for this 10 years. Have they been perfect? No. Should we shit on everything and everything they do because we're jaded from the Benning era? Also no.

Their big failure is not being able to clear cap. They have spent too much, arguably, but they wanted to fill out a roster and had little other choice. They ineherited a team with way too many overpaid passengers. A flat cap league doesn't give you the option to trade Boeser for cheaper options, because no one can afford the inefficiency and risk (except the teams trying to avoid any salary and they don't want the commitment).

 

[Gurn]

Their big failure is not being able to clear cap.

The new guys have added more than $20 mill to the payroll.
time to stop blaming J.B.

 

[tantalum]

Couldn't disagree more. The President no-showing this press-conference is a very large deal, especially coming off an awful season and one where that same President was muzzled.

When Linden was President, it was himself & Benning up there. Referencing the recent years where there's no President to normalize yesterday makes no sense.

I'm not convinced this management is as stable as you think. There's no guarantee JR is back in his current role, that's for sure.

Feel free to disagree. That year end conference is NOT one that a club president absolutely attends.

Sens for example it was only Doiron. The coach wasn't even present let alone upper management.

Montreal had both GM and VP hockey operations.

Caps just the GM (he does wear a VP hat as well but there is a president above him)

Jackets was just Jarmo.

Basically what I'm saying there is absolutely no hard and fast rule to the year end conference including those above the GM despite the protests of the vancouver media.