Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[Mr. Canucklehead]

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[dez]

They name dropped Ethan Bear. Lol

 

[aight]

Trade the 2023 first rounder. It is time to win.

 

[God]

thank god they didnt name drop boeser. i'm team shrek

 

[LordBacon]

Trade the 2023 first rounder. It is time to win.

Finally some sense on this board

 

[mathonwy]

2 more years.

 

[aight]

Burn futures to make a real run at this thing during the absolute height of Pettersson and Hughes and Demko’s superpowers. Don’t try and push this in soft. There is no half pregnant. It’s time to win because we have four absolutely elite players.

 

[F A N]

We have to be careful not to be too short-sighted though. Trading this year's pick is different than trading next year's pick. If the right player comes along, I'm ok with trading next year's pick at this year's draft (with some protection) since we will be adding what should be a blue chip prospect in the lineup. If we trade this year's pick there's no one coming up through the system.

This year's pick, if we draft well, can contribute quickly. Take the 2018 draft where we drafted Hughes. At the time there was talk that Hanifin might be available for our pick. Certainly, if there is a 21 year old right shot Dman the calibre of then Hanifin available we should be very interested. But again we have to be careful.

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

Burn futures to make a real run at this thing during the absolute height of Pettersson and Hughes and Demko’s superpowers. Don’t try and push this in soft. There is no half pregnant. It’s time to win because we have four absolutely elite players.

4 Elite players, kind of like we had prime Sedin, Sedin, Kesler and Luongo. 4 Elite players. One of them right now is a D. But that previous team also had a dynamic Dman, in Ehrhoff. Also Edler. But we also had Hamhuis, Bieksa and Salo. Now we only have maybe two D that compare to those five. Just two. That is assuming Hronek continues playing like a top 4 D.

We are not at the same point. And this is not mentioning we had a backup goalie that would have been an elite starting goalie on nearly any other team in the league. And I'm not necessarily saying to avoid trading the pick; picks are never as valuable as people on these boards think.

However, if we pick around 10 this year, we have a good chance at getting a real good player. I would lean towards keeping the pick. Unless someone offers something better than Hronek.

 

[aight]

4 Elite players, kind of like we had prime Sedin, Sedin, Kesler and Luongo. 4 Elite players. One of them right now is a D. But that previous team also had a dynamic Dman, in Ehrhoff. Also Edler. But we also had Hamhuis, Bieksa and Salo. Now we only have maybe two D that compare to those five. Just two. That is assuming Hronek continues playing like a top 4 D.

We are not at the same point. And this is not mentioning we had a backup goalie that would have been an elite starting goalie on nearly any other team in the league. And I'm not necessarily saying to avoid trading the pick; picks are never as valuable as people on these boards think.

However, if we pick around 10 this year, we have a good chance at getting a real good player. I would lean towards keeping the pick. Unless someone offers something better than Hronek.

What do you suggest we do? We are obviously at the mercy of Fatquilini always demanding playoffs. I am trying to be realistic. I think we have to move the 2023 first for now help. Be it cap space or roster.

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

What do you suggest we do? We are obviously at the mercy of Fatquilini always demanding playoffs. I am trying to be realistic. I think we have to move the 2023 first for now help. Be it cap space or roster.

My suggestions are not popular. I've felt for a few years that this team has been much better than the results. I was leaning towards a scorched earth rebuild for a lot of Benning's tenure. The last few years I leaned towards competing hard, which is what Benning did (then, and always).

When I say we're not like the 2011 team, I mean we are not a cup-favourite. Not close. We don't have the depth on D. However, I think the team is pretty good.

Our cap is still f***ed from Benning. But even if we payed assets to clear cap, what are we going to do with it? Who do we sign that moves the needle? We need impact D. That's the thing. The only D I see in FA that looks appealing is Vince Dunn. But we won't be able to sign him because every team will be trying to sign him. And on top of that, he'll get a bloated contract that is going to suck for whoever signs him. So there's not many options.

That's the thing about D, it's extremely difficult to acquire impact D without drafting and developing them yourself, or finding them and developing them yourself (like Tanev, but obviously that is the exception). Maybe Filip Johansson turns out to be another exception. The point is, usually you need to draft quality D. Or crush a trade like Ehrhoff, but again, that's the exception. Otherwise, you pay a lot in a trade. We just gave up a potential unprotected 1st round pick, and basically another (late) first round pick for a second pairing D. I mildly disliked the trade at the time because I felt like it was too much. I didn't hate the trade. It didn't feel like OEL at the time. But I disliked it because of the value. I still dislike the value we gave. I'm happy NYI has all but made the playoffs, but that pick should have been more than enough for soon-to-be UFA Hronek imo.

If Garland or Beauvillier have a great year next year, try to flip one for a D. Retain half the salary if need be, trade them to a contender for a high draft pick, and flip the draft pick and another player for a decent second pairing D.

I lean towards using the 2023 pick. There's a few forwards in that range, 8-15, that should be impact NHLers. Try to get the best one. Replace the forward you send out. Or draft the best Dman. There should be a couple top-4 D in that range as well. That's the easiest way to acquire a top-4 D.

So I would go into next season doing basically the same thing as the last few seasons, hoping naively to make the playoffs as-is. What is the difference? In my humble opinion, there has been a big change in the organization. Yes, Aqualinni is still tampering with the team, and probably demanding playoff revenue. The management change looked good on first glance. I wasn't amazed by the Rutherford hire, but Alvin looked good immediately. However, the change that made me feel like things have actually changed around here, was hiring the Sedins. Those guys are great hockey minds. Intelligent, dedicated, thoughtful, caring, diligent, wise. I trust them whatever they do. I'm naive like that. If they're advisors to the GM, I trust they'll help the management. If they are helping run player development, I trust the player development will improve significantly.

The three main problems were #1: toxic management,#2: f***ed up cap, and #3: lack of quality D. #1 includes the player development black hole, awful pro and amateur scouting, awful trades and horrible signings. I think our entire franchise turns over a new leaf, as much as possible with Aqualini around. Clean up the toxic fumes of Benning. Let the cap mess resolve itself. I predict we'll be top 2 in the division. Particularly if we can acquire one more quality D. But we'll need more talent coming up the pipeline and this might be our last chance at a high draft pick.

Warning: Hot Takes Galore!

 

[DFAC]

My suggestions are not popular. I've felt for a few years that this team has been much better than the results. I was leaning towards a scorched earth rebuild for a lot of Benning's tenure. The last few years I leaned towards competing hard, which is what Benning did (then, and always).

When I say we're not like the 2011 team, I mean we are not a cup-favourite. Not close. We don't have the depth on D. However, I think the team is pretty good.

Our cap is still f***ed from Benning. But even if we payed assets to clear cap, what are we going to do with it? Who do we sign that moves the needle? We need impact D. That's the thing. The only D I see in FA that looks appealing is Vince Dunn. But we won't be able to sign him because every team will be trying to sign him. And on top of that, he'll get a bloated contract that is going to suck for whoever signs him. So there's not many options.

That's the thing about D, it's extremely difficult to acquire impact D without drafting and developing them yourself, or finding them and developing them yourself (like Tanev, but obviously that is the exception). Maybe Filip Johansson turns out to be another exception. The point is, usually you need to draft quality D. Or crush a trade like Ehrhoff, but again, that's the exception. Otherwise, you pay a lot in a trade. We just gave up a potential unprotected 1st round pick, and basically another (late) first round pick for a second pairing D. I mildly disliked the trade at the time because I felt like it was too much. I didn't hate the trade. It didn't feel like OEL at the time. But I disliked it because of the value. I still dislike the value we gave. I'm happy NYI has all but made the playoffs, but that pick should have been more than enough for soon-to-be UFA Hronek imo.

If Garland or Beauvillier have a great year next year, try to flip one for a D. Retain half the salary if need be, trade them to a contender for a high draft pick, and flip the draft pick and another player for a decent second pairing D.

I lean towards using the 2023 pick. There's a few forwards in that range, 8-15, that should be impact NHLers. Try to get the best one. Replace the forward you send out. Or draft the best Dman. There should be a couple top-4 D in that range as well. That's the easiest way to acquire a top-4 D.

So I would go into next season doing basically the same thing as the last few seasons, hoping naively to make the playoffs as-is. What is the difference? In my humble opinion, there has been a big change in the organization. Yes, Aqualinni is still tampering with the team, and probably demanding playoff revenue. The management change looked good on first glance. I wasn't amazed by the Rutherford hire, but Alvin looked good immediately. However, the change that made me feel like things have actually changed around here, was hiring the Sedins. Those guys are great hockey minds. Intelligent, dedicated, thoughtful, caring, diligent, wise. I trust them whatever they do. I'm naive like that. If they're advisors to the GM, I trust they'll help the management. If they are helping run player development, I trust the player development will improve significantly.

The three main problems were #1: toxic management,#2: f***ed up cap, and #3: lack of quality D. #1 includes the player development black hole, awful pro and amateur scouting, awful trades and horrible signings. I think our entire franchise turns over a new leaf, as much as possible with Aqualini around. Clean up the toxic fumes of Benning. Let the cap mess resolve itself. I predict we'll be top 2 in the division. Particularly if we can acquire one more quality D. But we'll need more talent coming up the pipeline and this might be our last chance at a high draft pick.

Warning: Hot Takes Galore!

Good post, solid read.

I disagree on there being a big change on the organization though. To me, it seems like the plan has always been (and still is) to make the playoffs at all cost. There seems to be a lack of patience with this organization - short term gain for long term pain. Trade away futures for win now pieces. This isn't a rebuild or retool on the fly - its an all in to try and make the playoffs.

The cap situation is totally botched - what is the plan with OEL moving forward? Brock? Management kept saying one of their goals has always been to clear cap but all they've done is add more money onto the books. Factor in the fact that Hronek will need a new deal next year and your cap situation is looking even more grim.

I wish I had the same optimism as you but it just seems like the same thing all over again. I would be very surprised if they end up keeping our 1st round pick this year. I think its much more likely they trade it for immediate help on the blueline.

The real play was to move both Horvat AND Miller before this season and commit to a full rebuild. Get some good young players back (Im looking at you Chytil and Lundqvist) and a few 1sts in a stacked draft. Get through a tough year and have a top 5-10 pick + 2 firsts from the trades and your rebuild is well on its way. Have plenty of cap space too so you can give Petey a huge contract

 

[Gurn]

People willing to sign up for more long term pain, just to get a shot at MAKING the play offs.
Sad.
Funny

Canuck.

 

[racerjoe]

People willing to sign up for more long term pain, just to get a shot at MAKING the play offs.
Sad.
Funny

Canuck.

People willing to throw away two of the best talents this team has ever had for ten years of pain just for a chance and MAKING the Play offs.

Sad.
Funny

We are all Canucks.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Trade every single damn pick we have over the next 2 years along with Podkolzin, Hoglander and Lekkerimaki for cap relief and additional help.

Win cup in 2025 and 2026.

Profit.

Rebuild by the late 2020's.

Sound good?

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Canucks Mgmt: "I choose Door #3 Wayne"

Wayne Brady: "Ok. OK. Lets see first what you didn't select!"

Announcer: "Behind Door #1: A scorched earth rebuild! It would have taken years but the "fans wouldn't hack it!"

Announcer: "Behind Door #2: Trading away all of the team's "picks and prospects" to go all-in for a Cup!"

Wayne: "Lets see what you chose behind Door #3!"

Announcer: "The mushy middle! Where you are mid-pack, cap strapped, no picks and no prospects! Mediocrity at it's finest with the hope of two home playoff games a year!

Aquillini: "Can I claim those two home playoff games now?"

Wayne Brady: "No"

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

I think even in the off season, there would likely be a solid market for Beauvillier. He’s entering the final year of his deal, his cap hit isn’t enormous, and he’s got a solid playoff performance resume to his credit. I don’t know that the Canucks have any desire to part with him, but he’s the most easily moveable of our top six wingers.

 

[ForecheckBackcheck]

I actually agree we should push in the chips and go all-in.

Why tank for more top 10 picks (and burn through the primes of Petey, Hughes, Hronek, Kuzmenko and Miller) when those picks are likely, at best, to give you an Pettersson, Kuzmenko, Hughes, Hronek, or JT Miller type player.

We already have those players. Lets jettison some dead weight (OEL, Myers), sign or trade for another Top 4 D and a 3C, and make a real go of it for the next 3 years.

Trade from a position of strength (surplus wingers in Boeser, Garland, Hoglander, Podkolzin, Raty, Beauviller - there is some real value in there) and get the pieces we need. Lets go. If necessary, package those players or prospects with a 1st or 2nd and get a stud back.

 

[Gurn]

People willing to throw away two of the best talents this team has ever had for ten years of pain just for a chance and MAKING the Play offs.

Sad.
Funny

We are all Canucks.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

 

[Gurn]

I have an idea, let's dump all our bad players and sign good ones.
Any one know of any teams that want all our bad players, and will trade us their good ones in return?
That's all we need right?
Just get rid of
OEL
Myers
Boesser
Poolman
Garland
Pearson

Then find
3rd line center
2 more top 4 D men
2-3 players for penalty killing
a couple of big, scrappy wingers
a couple of scrappy, big d men.
a back up goalie

Get half of that done and be a contender to make the play offs
get all of it done, be a contender to win a couple of rounds.
so freaking easy. Should have had this complete by the beginning of this season.
don't get what's taking so long.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decade of darkness, goes on.
Game plan hasn't changed
Not likely too either.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

But...

Where's the foundation piece for this group going forward in the playoffs.....

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

One can dream...

 

[andora]

Thank you for this reply. I appreciate the effort.

With regards to point one. It’s not just picks. It’s also drafted prospects.

They traded a lot of things. Because they accrued a lot of things.


Imagine if while they’re were plummeting to the bottom of the standings to pick 3rd that they traded futures for now help….no Sergachev.

Tampa is used often because they’re the best run organization in the sport and I was calling them such years before winning cups. They won the cups because they didn’t start selling the future until they had the horses. There’s a reason I mention the level of futures they acquired from 14-16. And it’s impossible to ignore how it impacted the more recent seasons.

the “I think probably…” statement takes seems lazy and the rest of your statement is just wishful thinking.

forgive me - but how are you meaning 'level of futures acquired through 14-16'? The two most influential deals to their success were both draft day deals - trading a 1st for a 2nd and a 3rd (cirelli) and trading a 3rd and a 7th for a higher 3rd for point. the other stuff during that timeframe wasn't some huge collection hoarded and then used - it was some trades players for picks either way and then repurposing draft picks.

this is what i am talking about how tampa's history, in my opinion gets misrepresented in the way in which they approached their building. they traded more first rounders than obtaining between 2009-2020, but it is how the draft picks were utilized in trades. i don't understand the line 'didn't sell the future until they had the horses' - the only thing they did consistently was manipulate the future - that's all i'm saying. they had 5 top 10 picks since stamkos - 3 were duds but they focused on moving the asset.

i don't get why this approach can't be done here.. they didn't hoard/collect some giant warchest.. they just didn't. they have a 6+ draft pick surplus from 2008. they succeed in identifying who they want and getting it.

I disagree they did a slow build.
Stamkos/Hedman 2008 and 2009 draft.

2011 conference finals with old guard (St Louis and Lecavalier).

Has a couple barren years. 2013 3rd overall pick.

Started to target futures.

Lots of picks acquired.

Cup finals in 2015. Been a cup contender ever since.

regarding lots of picks - they had a 2 pick surplus between that 2013 draft and 2015 draft.

 

[racerjoe]

I have an idea, let's dump all our bad players and sign good ones.
Any one know of any teams that want all our bad players, and will trade us their good ones in return?
That's all we need right?
Just get rid of
OEL
Myers
Boesser
Poolman
Garland
Pearson

I am going to say there is a very good chance Poolman and Pearson are LTIR. Myers has been talked about, and only one of Boeser Garland need to go... so really it is one contract, and I do expect them to be back. I do think buying out OEL is best, I just can't see FAQ allowing that.

Then find
3rd line center
2 more top 4 D men
2-3 players for penalty killing
a couple of big, scrappy wingers
a couple of scrappy, big d men.
a back up goalie

You have this listed to make it seem much bigger than it is. Like essentially dman listed twice, 3rd line centre that could be a penalty killer... Not sure why we need Scrappy wingers... and yes the hardest position to find in sports a back up goalie...

The hard part is the first section, moving money. This is just a list to make things look harder than it needs to be...

Get half of that done and be a contender to make the play offs
get all of it done, be a contender to win a couple of rounds.
so freaking easy. Should have had this complete by the beginning of this season.
don't get what's taking so long.

Get all of this done and there are most likely more than contenders for the playoffs. I mean they really should be that now.

I have said this before and I will say it again... Benning is gone. Sorry he hurt you. Look at Seattles quick turn around, Florida did it. Hell the Canucks in 2008 when Gillis took over. We can do it. It is possible. Will we? No clue.

Decade of darkness, goes on.
Game plan hasn't changed
Not likely too either.

Benning is Gone.
Benning couldn't do anything.
Never could have.

Stop grouping people in with the worst management team of all time.

 

[4Twenty]

forgive me - but how are you meaning 'level of futures acquired through 14-16'? The two most influential deals to their success were both draft day deals - trading a 1st for a 2nd and a 3rd (cirelli) and trading a 3rd and a 7th for a higher 3rd for point. the other stuff during that timeframe wasn't some huge collection hoarded and then used - it was some trades players for picks either way and then repurposing draft picks.

this is what i am talking about how tampa's history, in my opinion gets misrepresented in the way in which they approached their building. they traded more first rounders than obtaining between 2009-2020, but it is how the draft picks were utilized in trades. i don't understand the line 'didn't sell the future until they had the horses' - the only thing they did consistently was manipulate the future - that's all i'm saying. they had 5 top 10 picks since stamkos - 3 were duds but they focused on moving the asset.

i don't get why this approach can't be done here.. they didn't hoard/collect some giant warchest.. they just didn't. they have a 6+ draft pick surplus from 2008. they succeed in identifying who they want and getting it.



regarding lots of picks - they had a 2 pick surplus between that 2013 draft and 2015 draft.

Agree to disagree.

Surprised folks see a Tampa type organization here given where they’re starting but to each their own.

I’m not going to convince you especially if we can’t even agree on the levels of picks prospects they accrued (conveniently you didn’t include 2012 where they had two firsts and two seconds). It’s a night and day comparison imo and since we can even agree to that I’m content to leave it at that.

Cheers