Prospect Info: Lias Andersson - Part IV

[Inferno]

Even strength, there’s 5 skaters in red

To be fair ..the way that was being defended it looked like a power play to me as well.

 

[nyr2k2]

Yes, Hayes and Vesey literally quit on their team. They literally walked away from the team that had their rights. Vesey even did it twice. All within their rights of course, using the possibility to opt for UFA status, but they did quit on the team that drafted them

Nah. They never signed a contract with those teams. They never agreed to play for the team at all. In fact they expressed desire to not ever sign for that team and instead that they preferred to play elsewhere. Their only tie to the teams that drafted them was that the teams said their name at the draft. They had a right to not play for the team and they exercised it.

Andersson signed a contract, started playing for the team, and then walked away from the team. Signing the contract is the big difference. Signing a contract is a player committing to play for the team for a period of time. The other guys didn't do that. They never committed. Andersson committed and quit which is his right as a human being but not as a professional player, insofar as the NHL, IIHF, and other affiliated associations are concerned. Because he quit, he was suspended. He didn't exercise a "right" under the CBA; in fact, he violated the CBA.

There's an enormous difference between the two situations. You can view them in the same light if you wish, but objectively they are quite different.

 

[cwede]

Yes, Hayes and Vesey literally quit on their team. They literally walked away from the team that had their rights. Vesey even did it twice. All within their rights of course, using the possibility to opt for UFA status, but they did quit on the team that drafted them

I think this is a tricky topic.
The players played by the rules in the CBA - teams do that, in their own mercenary best interests, all the time.
The players gambled finding a preferred situation, but also the teams failed to get them to sign.
Hawks basically challenged Hayes to do so, by asserting, before he ever signed that they did not intend to play him at C.
And the teams can try to manage the situation to mitigate loss, if they expect the player won't sign, as Nashville did w Vesey, and Canes w Fox.

How is what these guys did any different than a Major Junior player not signing after his exclusive rights expire?

and why do players owe drafting teams more loyalty than teams owe drafted players, like what NYR showed to Nico Gross, who came overseas for 3 seasons, played in 4 WJCs, and was shunned by his drafting team?

 

[ElLeetch]

and why do players owe drafting teams more loyalty than teams owe drafted players, like what NYR showed to Nico Gross, who came overseas for 3 seasons, played in 4 WJCs, and was shunned by his drafting team?

This is what i'm always am amazed at. People are basically in favor of servitude with drafted prospects if it helps their team.

 

[nyr2k2]

This is what i'm always am amazed at. People are basically in favor of servitude with drafted prospects if it helps their team.

I don't have a problem with guys refusing to sign. Just recently people were speculating Wall wouldn't sign. I didn't think that was going to happen, but if it did, I wouldn't begrudge him. The same with Barron--I'd have been super bummed if he chose to go the UFA route, but, again, that would be his right.

Once you sign, though, different story. You gotta play by the rules and obey the terms of the contract. And that goes both ways--guaranteed contract, so the team has to play by the rules, too. And that's why Hayes is different than Lias; Hayes exercised his right under the CBA to not commit to the team that drafted him. Andersson made the decision to enter into a contract with the team that drafted him--and then committed a flagrant breach of the contract.

 

[ElLeetch]

I don't have a problem with guys refusing to sign. Just recently people were speculating Wall wouldn't sign. I didn't think that was going to happen, but if it did, I wouldn't begrudge him. The same with Barron--I'd have been super bummed if he chose to go the UFA route, but, again, that would be his right.

Once you sign, though, different story. You gotta play by the rules and obey the terms of the contract. And that goes both ways--guaranteed contract, so the team has to play by the rules, too. And that's why Hayes is different than Lias; Hayes exercised his right under the CBA to not commit to the team that drafted him. Andersson made the decision to enter into a contract with the team that drafted him--and then committed a flagrant breach of the contract.

agreed, signed contracts are a different deal, same with any labor issue.

Could you imagine though if you got out of college at the top of the class in Med School, and you had to go work in some remote hospital in Missouri because they picked you? And if you wanted to go work in NY or Chicago, but you had no choice?

 

[mas0764]

agreed, signed contracts are a different deal, same with any labor issue.

Could you imagine though if you got out of college at the top of the class in Med School, and you had to go work in some remote hospital in Missouri because they picked you? And if you wanted to go work in NY or Chicago, but you had no choice?

The difference between real life and sports.

 

[broadwayblue]

The difference between real life and sports.

Exactly. First year residents don't make 900k.

 

[NYSPORTS]

and why do players owe drafting teams more loyalty than teams owe drafted players, like what NYR showed to Nico Gross, who came overseas for 3 seasons, played in 4 WJCs, and was shunned by his drafting team?

Although hockey socialism and participation trophies has a ring to it i’m not sure the results would be the perfect system.

Any suggestions on what else to do?

 

[cwede]

Although hockey socialism and participation trophies has a ring to it i’m not sure the results would be the perfect system. Any suggestions on what else to do?

i have no idea what the first sentence means

but i have no problem with the system as is,
people who call what Hayes/Vesey did a loophole,
are looking at a single tree, not the forest,
as mentioned, Junior players, actually even most Euro players,
also have draft rights expiration deadlines they can wait out,
and teams have similar options not to proceed

 

[NYSPORTS]

i have no idea what the first sentence means

but i have no problem with the system as is,
people who call what Hayes/Vesey did a loophole,
are looking at a single tree, not the forest,
as mentioned, Junior players, actually even most Euro players,
also have draft rights expiration deadlines they can wait out,
and teams have similar options not to proceed

what it means is everybody is happy, everything is even including cash, stats, loyalty, etc is evenly disbursed

It’s the reality that there is no perfect system.

yes, they can’t see the forest for the trees

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

i have no idea what the first sentence means

but i have no problem with the system as is,
people who call what Hayes/Vesey did a loophole,
are looking at a single tree, not the forest,
as mentioned, Junior players, actually even most Euro players,
also have draft rights expiration deadlines they can wait out,
and teams have similar options not to proceed

I agree. I also don't think there's a loophole or that those players gamed the system. There were choices made and there were consequences to those choices. They stayed in school, foregoing a contract. They risked injuries before they could secure a contract. They bet on themselves that their play wouldn't decline and that there still would be a market for them as a UFA.

 

[Ola]

Just my 2 cents, but as I said regarding Pulju in EDM, I think he should have walked away sooner. A kid has no bigger obligation to play for an organization than the organization has any obligation to play the kid.

Nobody will thank you if you ruin your career. EDM was doing that to Pulju no doubt. It was just brain dead to rush him over and play him on a 4th line. You would never see a team play a kid just because they “owe it to him” for signing the kid. Why should the kid do the same??

The problem with Lias is (a) he wasn’t as good pick as we thought, and (b) he really didn’t handle being rushed well (the opposite). There was a disagreement between him and NYR whether he should have stayed in Sweden, he was forced over to NA, and he didn’t like how he was developed and on top of that he had a coach in the NHL that didn’t like him. The way he bolted was of course total lunacy.

Ive for years said the same thing in relation to a whole bunch of topics. The margins for making it in today’s NHL is extremely small. You need to ‘ace’ your development basically. 9/10 must. 19 of 20 maybe. A team should definitely consider a prospects development conditions when drafting him. You need to be patient. Rushing kids, especially forwards, to the AHL is brain dead. It’s 4th line hockey, way below the level of play in most other leagues in terms of offensive play, structure etc.

In hindsight Lias should have refused to sign an ELC without being presented with a viable development path. It was hubris bu him to think that he was ready. After D+1 he should have refused to show up for camp until he was loaned to the SHL.

 

[Ola]

I think Lundkvist and Henriksson has better advisers. They aren’t signing a contract before they feel it’s time for them to come over. Many NHL organizations are really poorly run, it’s just not us that have made big blunders.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I think Lundkvist and Henriksson has better advisers. They aren’t signing a contract before they feel it’s time for them to come over. Many NHL organizations are really poorly run, it’s just not us that have made big blunders.

Lundkvist would have signed his ELC if the pandemic didn't affect the entire season in NA.

 

[Leetch3]

Lundkvist would have signed his ELC if the pandemic didn't affect the entire season in NA.

but because he felt he was ready to come over...he didn't rush over at 18 after the draft. so I think the thought is still valid.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

but because he felt he was ready to come over...he didn't rush over at 18 after the draft. so I think the thought is still valid.

Well, he wasn't offered an ELC in 2018 or 2019

 

[egelband]

Because some people are more concerned with spite than they are with making intelligent organizational decisions

Yep. “Sticking it to him” is pointless on about every level.

 

[Levitate]

How is what these guys did any different than a Major Junior player not signing after his exclusive rights expire?

It's not. In fact teams have more control over college bound players than major junior players. The whole college players going UFA is the same exact mechanism a kid drafted out of the CHL could use...just don't sign a contract for 4 years, then you're an UFA. Lafreniere could even do that to the Rangers!

Difference is that they have to go back into the draft if they don't sign after 2 years, whereas college players just get to stay on their college team but their signing rights remain with their drafting team until they're done.

The only loophole about it is that it's easier for a college player to just stay in one place, one team, develop in one place for 4 years, versus a CHL kid who would age out, have to be an overager or find some place to play overseas or something, etc.

 

[egelband]

It's not a loophole. It's intentional.

Yes. Of course. But I think @RangersFan1994 wasn’t saying it as a negative. He was just using the common parlance. I call it a loophole too, reflexively. Even though it’s a completely legit and collectively-bargained feature.

 

[egelband]

The more I think on the Lias Situation the more I feel sympathy for him. Not in terms of “Lias Versus The Rangers”. I don’t really think the Rangers did anything particularly wrong aside from maybe not messaging sensitively enough for Lias. (And I think they should be tailoring their contact to the individual; Not one-size-fits-all). But Lias really seems to be fighting himself. He doesn’t appear to be in a good space right now. I hope his new path works out for him. A 21 year old pro athlete ought to be having the time of his life right now.

 

[nyr2k2]

The more I think on the Lias Situation the more I feel sympathy for him. Not in terms of “Lias Versus The Rangers”. I don’t really think the Rangers did anything particularly wrong aside from maybe not messaging sensitively enough for Lias. (And I think they should be tailoring their contact to the individual; Not one-size-fits-all). But Lias really seems to be fighting himself. He doesn’t appear to be in a good space right now. I hope his new path works out for him. A 21 year old pro athlete ought to be having the time of his life right now.

Yes. The Rangers fan in me is f***ing annoyed with him to no end. But on a human level, I do feel sympathy for him as he appears to have some internal issues he's working through, and I also think he's maybe not getting the best advice from people in his life.

 

[smoneil]

A 21 year old pro athlete ought to be having the time of his life right now.

I wonder about that sometimes. We assume that should be true, but how many times do we hear after the fact about guys who washed out or even thrived on the ice while being miserable? Same thing with child actors. We all think it would be great to have fame and money at a young age, but a fairly sizeable percentage of people who ARE famous and rich at a young age see their lives go off the rails. Sometimes its because of toxic/controlling parents/agents. Sometimes it's the pressure. I don't know if I tend towards kindness on this topic because I'm on the older side of the board population (40) and work with this age group (18-22ish), but I'd give the kid another chance and see if I couldn't help him rebuild his bridges.

 

[RGY]

Its been a rollercoaster thus far with Lias. For me I defended him for awhile, then was frustrated with him with how things played out this past season. It sucks because he has the makings to be a quality middle 6 center which is what this team really needs. But I dont see him wanting to come back to NY. Even he doesnt have an issue with the Rangers organization, he might feel embarrassed with how everything transpired and just wants a fresh start.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

The more I think on the Lias Situation the more I feel sympathy for him. Not in terms of “Lias Versus The Rangers”. I don’t really think the Rangers did anything particularly wrong aside from maybe not messaging sensitively enough for Lias. (And I think they should be tailoring their contact to the individual; Not one-size-fits-all). But Lias really seems to be fighting himself. He doesn’t appear to be in a good space right now. I hope his new path works out for him. A 21 year old pro athlete ought to be having the time of his life right now.

Yes. The Rangers fan in me is f***ing annoyed with him to no end. But on a human level, I do feel sympathy for him as he appears to have some internal issues he's working through, and I also think he's maybe not getting the best advice from people in his life.

I wonder about that sometimes. We assume that should be true, but how many times do we hear after the fact about guys who washed out or even thrived on the ice while being miserable? Same thing with child actors. We all think it would be great to have fame and money at a young age, but a fairly sizeable percentage of people who ARE famous and rich at a young age see their lives go off the rails. Sometimes its because of toxic/controlling parents/agents. Sometimes it's the pressure. I don't know if I tend towards kindness on this topic because I'm on the older side of the board population (40) and work with this age group (18-22ish), but I'd give the kid another chance and see if I couldn't help him rebuild his bridges.

You all are spot on. I don't know (and frankly doubt) if Lias has a future with the Rangers or even in the NHL, and I worry about the kid. At the end of the day the life experience of another human is way more important than the success of a single prospect for my team, as annoyed as I may be with how the whole saga played out.