Lets Talk About the "Taylor Hall is a loser" Narrative

[BeLeafing]

It seems to be difficult to come across a thread involving Hall that doesn't have comments surrounding how he "is not a winner" and how "losing seems to follow him around" but I encourage you to think harder about it. Does losing follow Hall around? Or is he a victim of circumstance like we haven't seen before in this sport?

There is currently a thread at the time of this posting on the polls section of the forum mentioning the worst organizations in recent memory (Which of these organizations was the worst run during their time period?). Hall played for 3 of the 4 listed teams, during the specified time periods. The other? The New Jersey Devils, who have made the playoffs 1 of the last 8 seasons. That 1 season was Hall dragging them to the playoffs with a MVP season.

Lets look at each team in recent memory.

Edmonton Oilers (2012-2020):
0.422 win percentage (and worse before 2012)
2 playoff appearances
6 head coaches
5 general managers
(Hall had 328 points in 381 games for them)

New Jersey Devils (2012-2020):
0.418 win percentage
1 playoff appearance
4 head coaches
3 general managers
(Hall had 208 points in 211 games for them)

Arizona Coyotes (2012-2020):
0.407 win percentage
1 playoff appearance
2 head coaches
2 general managers
(Hall had 27 points in 35 games for them)

Buffalo Sabres (2012-2020):
0.363 win percentage
0 playoff appearances
6 head coaches
4 general managers
(Hall has 16 points in 24 games for them)

What Hall is and has been, is a complimentary high-end skilled player that has been relied on to be (mostly) the star player on very weak teams with or without him. Now, he isn't the same player today as he was in his Hart trophy season, but Hall has been a victim of circumstance and needs an opportunity to be a complimentary piece in the right role on a quality team and organization before we can say Hall himself is an issue and can't be a player you have success with.

 

[AvroArrow]

To put it shortly, I just think he's a star player surrounded by shit his entire career. I still believe in his skill and talent, but he has never had a good team to play on. He absolutely can still be a star player, he's just had some of the most unfortunate teams. What's crazy is, he'd be the perfect fit on Edmonton right now.

 

[tucker3434]

Ryan O'Reilly was a loser right up until he wasn't.

But really, I think Matt Duchene has a better case for this. A lot of the teams he's played on were really good either right before he got there or right after he left.

 

[Number8]

I can't speak to whether Hall is a "loser", I just haven't paid that much attention to him in detail. I do know that to date he clearly isn't a "winner". He was slated to be a big star when he was drafted -- fair or not, there was a lot of hype around him at the draft. So far he's not been a piece that teams have been able to build around and the latest decision to go to Buffalo doesn't seem to have done him or the team much good in altering the path he's been on.

It does seem that some noise seems to follow him in terms of his leadership in the room, but who knows about that. Certainly not me.

I do think he was ill served by being taken first in the draft. Edmonton screwed up (surprise, surprise) by taking him. They needed a Center badly at the time. Ironically Boston needed a winger (still do) badly at the time. If Seguin had gone to Edmonton and Hall had gone to Boston things might be quite different. But that is water well under the bridge by now.

 

[kladorf2005]

Pfft. Not even a PPG player? There are threads all over the mains telling me that Crosby is dunzo because he's only a PPG player. That must make Hall a loser then!

 

[HF007]

What would happen if him and duchene were on the same team

 

[11Messier]

Its always fun to crap on a player and say he's bad luck or some other superstitious things but in reality his "bad luck" is mostly due to circumstance of being on bad teams. His other issue is that he thinks he can change a teams fortune on his own, and even McDavid can't do that. Hall is a great player but he needs to take a dose of humility and understand it takes a team to win. He finally got a chance to choose his destiny and he chose Buffalo. He gambled that he could change the teams fortune by his mere presence and that gamble is going to cost him big time for his next signing. He would have been way better off to take a 1 year discount and sign with a contender and then sign a big long term deal somewhere this year. I wish him well though.

 

[SenzZen]

Winning them lotteries, amirite?!?

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Ryan O'Reilly was a loser right up until he wasn't.

But really, I think Matt Duchene has a better case for this. A lot of the teams he's played on were really good either right before he got there or right after he left.

He doesn't really fit either, just coincidence.

Colorado was close to garbage right up until the season after he was dealt.

He went to Ottawa that anyone with half a brain could see they over achieved.

They beat a Boston team that might have been the worst team in the playoffs that year. They beat a Rangers team that had a goalie who all of a sudden couldn't save anything.

Against Pittsburgh, they played well and really believed in themselves. There's nothing you can really take away from them that series.

Overall, though you just knew Ottawa was a meh team and they proved it.

Nashville, who made it to the cup finals that year against Ottawa played:

Chicago - held them to 3 goals in 4 games, but Chicago hasn't legitimately made the playoffs since then.

St. Louis - who were just a meddling team and at that time without Schenn, RoR and Binnington. Likely a few other good depth pieces.

Anaheim- who were looking strong, but got swept and then hasn't made the playoffs since.

Went to Columbus who almost missed the playoffs, but still swept Tampa and put up a good fight against Boston.

That was Nashville's lucky window, got beat by an experienced Pens team and just kept trending downwards since.

Though, Duchene's not so good player doesn't help.

 

[Jacob]

I just don’t think he’s that good or moves the needle for any team he’s on enough. Outside of the 1 year in Jersey he’s a good, but expensive, 1st line wing.

He’s like Kessel. Your forward group needs to be way more than just him to win. He should be like your 3rd best forward.

 

[jkrdevil]

Probably a little of column A, a little of column B. Yes he has been a border star player who has been on underwhelming rosters. That said I do think there is something to the criticism that was great as a player as he is a guy who can check out early and not put in the work to take himself and his teammates to the next level. I don’t think it is a coincidence he had his best season after Edmonton had some success that first season without and he took criticism.

That said he also isn’t the same player since he knee injury.

 

[GreatSaveEssensa]

I just don’t think he’s that good or moves the needle for any team he’s on enough. Outside of the 1 year in Jersey he’s a good, but expensive, 1st line wing.

He’s like Kessel. Your forward group needs to be way more than just him to win. He should be like your 3rd best forward.

Aren’t all ‘good 1st line wingers’ fairly expensive? I’m not sure thats really the knock on Hall you think it is.

 

[BeLeafing]

He’s like Kessel. Your forward group needs to be way more than just him to win. He should be like your 3rd best forward.

I agree, this is where expectations should lie. He hasn't had the opportunity to be in a situation where he can excel as that, and until that point it is difficult to make sweeping judgements of Hall as a player who has been put in only unfavourable positions.

For those who are not interested in Hall on their roster due to any of these perceived and assumed winning or lockerroom issues, I argue it's very premature.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

What would happen if him and duchene were on the same team

Relegation to the ECHL

 

[Elysian]

Imagine a team with Hall and Duchene


Edit: apparently someone above imagined the same thing.

 

[tucker3434]

He doesn't really fit either, just coincidence.

Colorado was close to garbage right up until the season after he was dealt.

He went to Ottawa that anyone with half a brain could see they over achieved.

They beat a Boston team that might have been the worst team in the playoffs that year. They beat a Rangers team that had a goalie who all of a sudden couldn't save anything.

Against Pittsburgh, they played well and really believed in themselves. There's nothing you can really take away from them that series.

Overall, though you just knew Ottawa was a meh team and they proved it.

Nashville, who made it to the cup finals that year against Ottawa played:

Chicago - held them to 3 goals in 4 games, but Chicago hasn't legitimately made the playoffs since then.

St. Louis - who were just a meddling team and at that time without Schenn, RoR and Binnington. Likely a few other good depth pieces.

Anaheim- who were looking strong, but got swept and then hasn't made the playoffs since.

Went to Columbus who almost missed the playoffs, but still swept Tampa and put up a good fight against Boston.

That was Nashville's lucky window, got beat by an experienced Pens team and just kept trending downwards since.

Though, Duchene's not so good player doesn't help.

I don't really believe in winners and losers. I just believe there are certain guys that GM's think are capable of building around when really they're just a complementary piece. I think that's true of both Hall and (to a lesser extent) Duchene.

Duchene's journey is mostly bad luck, but it's bad luck he brought on himself.

 

[SouthWest]

I just don’t think he’s that good or moves the needle for any team he’s on enough. Outside of the 1 year in Jersey he’s a good, but expensive, 1st line wing.

I've had this same narrative around him since nearly the beginning of his career. I flat out don't like his game and play style, every time I watch him I just feel like he would be the most frustrating guy to play on a line with.

He fly's down the ice, ends up in the corner, or throws the puck on net and hopes it bounces in or onto a team mates stick in front... I didn't even like his hart season and he wouldn't of got my vote, He shot 14.3% that year bookended by seasons of 8.4% and 9.3% and had 37 PPP compared to his next best at 21 PPP. The guy flat out got lucky in 17/18, one of those seasons where all the bounces went his way.

He's got almost zero shot diversification, is useless past the hash marks, and has one of the worst hockey IQ's of 'star' players in the league.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

You can't put the blame solely on Hall for anything other than, picking Buffalo. He has been asked to carry teams from day 1 in this league and he's quite frankly not good enough to do it. He's had the unfortunate luck of being moved to terrible teams, Ray Shero knew exactly what he was doing when he shipped him to Arizona, they had all the markings of a team that was overachieving and he wanted their 1st when it inevitably fell apart

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I'd put a modest amount of money on Hall winning a Cup as a nice 3rd-line piece when he's like 37 or something. lol

 

[McFlash97]

If the Oilers found a way to add Hall for a run here ...

It would be insane. Hall is extremely underrated because of the trash he keeps throwing himself into.

Yamamoto - 97 - 29.
Hall - RNH - Pulju

 

[Zaddy]

Saying he's a victim of circumstances is way too simplistic of an explanation. Hall absolutely has part in that, for several reasons. His game has not developed at all since he came into the league. He is fundamentally the same player as he ever was. He's an explosive offensive forward but not a great goalscorer nor a particularly well-rounded player. He has a big ego and doesn't seem to handle criticism very well nor does he appear to be particularly introspective. If he would've been more humble and accepted that he doesn't need to be THE guy on a team but rather settle in in more of a secondary role as well as round out his game, he could've played for a much better team and been much more successful, but alas he chose to go to Buffalo (a disaster of a franchise) and get paid instead.

Hall is essentially Kessel. If he's your main guy, you're not going to win anything, he's just not that type of player. He's very one-dimensional and that one dimension has arguably only been elite for one of the past five seasons to boot. Doesn't seem like a great locker room guy either based on the stories that's been told from his time in Edmonton. I definitely think a lot of his lack of success has to do with him. Like Kessel, he could only really thrive in a perfect situation, like Kessel had in Pittsburgh for a while. If your "win-condition" is that specific then yeah, you're probably not going to see a lot of success.

All I know is that I wasn't at all sad to see him leave the Oilers when he did, and even today I wouldn't want him back unless he's willing to sign a below market-value deal. If you want to win in this league you can't pay one-dimensional guys like him big money. With that being said, we have the pieces that would create that perfect situation for him. With McDavid being able to take some hard matchups away and Hall's chemistry with Draisaitl it'd essentially be that Crosby-Malkin-Kessel situation once more.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Hockey fans have a surprisingly hard time separating individual players from team success.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

This Thread is totally off base, no way it should be entitled:

Lets Talk About the "Taylor Hall is a loser" Narrative


Maybe:
Lets Talk About the "Taylor Hall is a Rich loser" Narrative


or
Lets Talk About the "Taylor Hall is Rich" Narrative


there, I fixed it.

 

[Dicky113]

What would happen if him and duchene were on the same team

It’s simple. This would cause a rift in the space time continuum. A black hole would develop at Centre ice, and then time would pass more quickly/slowly depending on your distance from the anomaly. The players would diverge into different alternate realities and would emerge later as variably older versions of themselves.

 

[Hockeym]

Imagine a team with Hall and Duchene