Legacy Of Los Hermanos Sedines?

[JianYang]

Imagine if Patrick Marleau had had an identical twin with the same ability, give or take a little more in the goal scoring or playmaking department, and they powered the Sharks all those years together. That's the Sedin Twins for me.

I think these players were quite different

 

[JianYang]

Calling the Sedins soft is just ignorant. They weren't physically aggressive, but they literally never backed down physically (no a cherrypicked highlight of Brad Marchand being a dipshit and Daniel turning the other cheek because we were in the finals doesn't count just because the refs acted like they were paid off and somehow the two were given matching penalties).

They were tough like Borje Salming was tough in the sense that they were tested frequently and they never backed down. Now, they never fought (which I believe Salming did early in his career), but they never gave up on pucks a la William Nylander to avoid contact.

Ask the guys who had to cover the sedins. They were not fun to handle. They were not "tough" in the traditional sense but it was very taxing trying to get the puck away from them and it would wear guys down as the games went on because they were masters at extending shifts in the ozone. To me that's a tough player, but not everyone agrees.

 

[MadLuke]

They were not rough and though, but they had the toughness of people able to run a marathon, not take bad selfish penalty, play 82 games in the nhl multiple season in a row not playing the easiest style, cut part of a toe to not miss game, they were certainly though in the sense of taking a lot of abuse and continuing to play well.

 

[GMR]

Better than Steve Poapst.

Worse than Zetterberg.

 

[GMR]

The Sedins are a big blindspot for the HOH board which typically has pretty good, nuanced perspectives.

The Sedins played hockey in a way that a lot of people didn't really understand what they were seeing and I suspect they probably attributed a lot of the Sedins' success to their own team's failures. Like, everyone understands why you don't stop Lindros, or slow down McDavid.

But the Sedins would basically play really skillful soccer on ice. Lot's of little through-passes, lot's of turning the back on defenders and waiting for them to overcommit just a hair, only to turn around and hit the open man. I suspect a lot of opposing fans thought, 'our stupid D, how is that guy uncovered', but the Sedins would basically find a way to press every single part of your skin in a way that felt unthreatening, before suddenly they found a pressure point and somehow they have your wrist bent backwards and you're on your knees yelping.

Time and the Canucks organization did them no favours in a couple of senses.

Time:

1. The Sedins entered their period of effectiveness (and understanding what NHL fitness meant) juuuuuuuust as the westcoast express was leaving it's heyday and becoming dysfunctional.
You put the 09 Sedins with the 03 Naslund line and that team probably wins a cup even with Dan Cloutier in net. But the Sedins weren't ready until the team lost a lot of its jam.

The Sedins also juuuuust missed playing with Pettersson and Hughes by a couple of years. So there's some timeline stuff here.

2. The Sedins were such possession monsters, and so poorly supported by other strong players, that often our coach (e.g. Vigneault) would just put them out there with our substandard 3rd pairing D because the play would so frequently be in the offensive zone that it was a way of protecting our bad D (like Marc-Andre Gragnani for example). So their superlative puck possession style wasn't so much supported by other stars, as it was used to lift up weaker linemates/d pairings.

3. The Sedins gave their linemates the most priceless resource in the NHL: time.
The league (and several leagues below) are full of players who can do superlative things with the puck, and have amazing shots, if you can just give them the space and time to process the game and put those skills to use. But the NHL is so organized, and full of such strong defenders that that time just doesn't exist. It's part of why drafting has always been a bit of a crapshoot (not a crapshoot, but high profile guys fail to make it all the time), because processing speed is hard to predict until you see it.

The Sedins were so good at creating space for teammates that they made Alex Burrows a 35 goal scorer, made Anson carter a 30 goal scorer about 60 games before he was out of the league, made Taylor Pyatt a 20 goal scorer, broke Radim Vrbata's gypsy curse of only being able to score in Phoenix, etc.

I think Boeser's expectations actually got outsized from his rookie season partly because we were given the impression that he was a sort of Patrick Laine shooter who could blow the puck past a set goaltender. And in his rookie season he was.
But he had Thomas Vanek at even strength, and the Sedins on the powerplay setting him up so he could finish his coffee, get the puck, take a look, and lean right into it.

Then they retired, Vanek left, and suddenly Boeser didn't have that time anymore.

He's still a good player and I was always a believer, but he took a lot of shit from our fans because suddenly he couldn't find the time and space that the Sedins helped create for him.

Here's an example:



I was at this game with my dad and it was a special moment and it made Boeser look like Mike Bossy or something. Taking on one of the best goalies in the NHL in a mano-a-mano scenario and beating him.

But look at why he had that time? That was what the Sedins did.

If you replaced Datsyuk and Zetterberg with the Sedins that Wings team still wins cups, I firmly believe it.

But because they played a style that not a lot of people understood, and because they played out west and in Canada, they get a bad rap.

The Wings don’t make back to back Finals in 2008 and 2009 with the Sedins. The latter were indeed soft along the boards.

Also, you’re completely ignoring the defensive gulf. Henrik Sedin was nothing special defensively. Crosby or Malkin would feast against him. Daniel was no Datsyuk in his zone.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The Sedins cycled the puck in the puck cycling era. That takes some grit for sure. I got swept up in the cycling era myself, I taught it, I played it...not easy. I'm not their biggest fan, but playing along the wall for 16 of your 22 minutes is not an easy road.

 

[Dingo]

Calling the Sedins soft is just ignorant. They weren't physically aggressive, but they literally never backed down physically (no a cherrypicked highlight of Brad Marchand being a dipshit and Daniel turning the other cheek because we were in the finals doesn't count just because the refs acted like they were paid off and somehow the two were given matching penalties).

They were tough like Borje Salming was tough in the sense that they were tested frequently and they never backed down. Now, they never fought (which I believe Salming did early in his career), but they never gave up on pucks a la William Nylander to avoid contact.

this is all true.

as for the non-reaction to Marchand. They were told explicitly not to retaliate by Vigneault. That was the gameplan.

Every single person i know, though (im a BCr), all agrees that it would have lit a forest fire if Daniel had fought back. Huge momentum shift, i think, wasted.

As for the refs in game 7 - I saw that coming. The Canucks were diving so bad that whole playoffs, and refs are actual humans who go home and watch replays. They dont like getting made fun of.

That first shift in game 7, someone got dumped right off the bat, and before long Chara was dropping Sedins behind the net left and right, ref right there watching. I turned to my buddy, who is a huge Canucks fan (i wasnt) and we both agreed that the refs had had enough of the Canucks.

 

[Ace of Hades]

I'll remember them for getting bullied by Marchand. Sorry to say but that's the defining moment of their career for me.

Didn't realize the action of one twin embodies the other too.

Daniel getting punched in the face doesn't imply it being done to Henrik. Henrik wouldn't let Marchand do that to him.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Henrik wouldn't let Marchand do that to him.

Henrik just stood around looking confused after Marchand put Daniel over his back, so I doubt he would react much differently.

 

[MS]

The disrespect shown to these players in this thread is astonishing and there are a lot of intelligent posters whose views I normally respect making really awful posts here.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Henrik just stood around looking confused after Marchand put Daniel over his back, so I doubt he would react much differently.

Just because he didn't do anything, doesn't mean he will let Marchand do that to him. Not to mention it was f***ing biased bullshit shown by the refs for allowing that dirt bag Marchand to get away with this shit.

 

[MS]

Just because he didn't do anything, doesn't mean he will let Marchand do that to him. Not to mention it was f***ing biased bullshit shown by the refs for allowing that dirt bag Marchand to get away with this shit.

Based on how that series was refereed, if Daniel would have given Marchand a small shove back he would probably have received a 5 minute major and a 3-game suspension.

The team's strategy was to stay disciplined against an undisciplined team and punish them on the PP but the league/refs basically decided that it was open season and Boston could do whatever they wanted with impunity.

And it's actually legit insane that these guys had 18 year HHOF careers where they were two of the classiest people ever to play the game and *this* minor incident is what most people seem to remember them for.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Their legacy will endure because they were an incredibly unique situation that will forever be lumped together for obvious reasons.

 

[EpochLink]

Their first 3 years in the league was nothing too exciting about, their 4th year showed promise. It was after the lockout of 04-05 they started to show their moxy. HOF careers, not too bad honestly.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Based on how that series was refereed, if Daniel would have given Marchand a small shove back he would probably have received a 5 minute major and a 3-game suspension.

The team's strategy was to stay disciplined against an undisciplined team and punish them on the PP but the league/refs basically decided that it was open season and Boston could do whatever they wanted with impunity.

And it's actually legit insane that these guys had 18 year HHOF careers where they were two of the classiest people ever to play the game and *this* minor incident is what most people seem to remember them for.

It's honestly a joke in this section where they are not considered legit superstars on their own by some. When they won hart trophies and peak Henrik had 80 even strength points with his brother missing time.

Irrational clowns dunking on classy individual well respected players, and we know damn well respected they are across the league with the reception they received by opposing players during the last few games left of the final season/eventual retirement.

 

[Dingo]

Henrik's point finishes are 1, 4, 7, 10

not sure how that stacks up against other HOFrs, but it looks pretty solid at first glance.

 

[MS]

It's honestly a joke in this section where they are not considered legit superstars on their own by some. When they won hart trophies and peak Henrik had 80 even strength points with his brother missing time.

Irrational clowns dunking on classy individual well respected players, and we know damn well respected they are across the league with the reception they received by opposing players during the last few games left of the final season/eventual retirement.

Just in this thread, I've seen 'boring players' (WHAT?!?!), 'just two Patrick Marleaus', and multiple references to how soft they were which is absolute nonsense.

I've never seen any other player get so poorly treated and misjudged by the hockey establishment. It's nuts.

 

[MadLuke]

Their peak was perfectly fine for an HOF (I mean art ross, hart) no problem there.

That top 10 finish also look good.

Top 20/25, is where it does not look that good.

1-4-9-10-13-15-24-26-43

It is better than say Dave AndreyChuck, but by the time we go the 8th best season or so....
10-13-20-22-31-35-39-40

But Pierre Turgeon had to wait quite a bit and:
6-6-13-14-14-15-16-20-24-24-28-28-36

HR as a similar scoring thru 17 years comparable they make

Thru 17 Years	Adjusted Point Shares (Best to Worst)
Player		1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17
Henrik Sedin		13.5	10.5	9.6	8.7	8.7	8.1	7.7	7.6	7.1	5.4	4.9	4.9	4.0	3.9	3.4	2.7	1.9
Zach Parise	93.8	12.8	11.5	9.4	8.9	8.6	8.1	7.6	7.2	6.9	6.6	5.5	4.3	3.1	2.7	2.7	2.5	0.6
Corey Perry	93.4	13.3	12.3	8.9	8.5	8.4	8.1	7.9	7.8	7.5	5.8	4.9	4.5	4.1	2.7	2.6	1.7	0.4
Henrik Zetterberg	93.2	13.0	10.6	9.2	8.8	8.2	8.2	8.1	7.6	7.6	6.7	6.5	5.1	4.8	4.4	3.9
Vincent Lecavalier	92.4	13.4	10.7	9.3	9.3	8.1	6.7	6.7	6.4	5.9	5.6	5.0	4.4	3.9	3.6	2.1	1.9	1.6
Alexander Mogilny	92.4	13.1	12.2	10.6	9.5	8.8	8.5	8.1	7.8	6.6	6.6	5.2	5.0	4.3	3.3	3.0	2.5
Claude Giroux	91.9	11.8	10.6	10.2	9.0	8.8	8.5	7.9	7.9	6.9	6.5	5.9	5.9	5.0	4.9	4.3	3.1	-0.1
Jeff Carter	91.8	11.7	9.5	9.0	8.9	8.0	8.0	8.0	7.0	6.6	5.3	4.9	4.0	3.6	3.0	2.6	2.6	2.0
Ryan Getzlaf	91.8	11.2	10.5	10.4	9.2	8.6	8.4	7.6	7.2	7.0	7.0	6.2	4.3	4.2	3.7	3.6	1.8	0.9
Adam Oates*	91.8	12.0	10.3	9.9	8.9	7.9	7.8	7.7	7.6	7.1	6.6	6.5	6.3	5.2	5.1	3.8	2.9	0.5
Frank Mahovlich*	91.5	11.7	10.8	10.2	9.6	8.7	8.1	8.1	7.0	6.5	6.3	5.7	5.7	5.3	4.1	3.6	3.5	0.1

Parise-Lecavalier-Zetterberg were not known for having big long prime,

 

[JackSlater]

Vancouver fans acting like Toronto fans when someone takes a shot at Wendel Clark. Generally when fans of a team think that everyone is wrong but them about the quality of players from their favourite team.... its not everyone else who is wrong. Legacy is about more than the quality of a player though.

If you replaced Datsyuk and Zetterberg with the Sedins that Wings team still wins cups, I firmly believe it.

Can't imagine it. It was very important for Detroit that Zetterberg and Datsyuk could and generally did, when the games mattered, play on different lines. Second line would be very weak during those years if the two best forwards were on the same line.

- Henrik did amazingly when Daniel was injured in his Art Ross year. Could have had incredible careers apart from each other, maybe, we will never know.

I thought sedins were good players for a while, but then particularly Henrik turned into a great player imo. They were magic together, but then that year happened where Daniel got hurt, and Henrik picked up the slack and lead the league.

They showed to me that there was more to them than just some sort of telepathic chemistry.

Maybe I'm missing something but this argument got brought up when Sedin got the Hart, it was brought up and used poorly in the recent thread about the 2010 Hart, and now Sedin played "amazingly" and Henrik "picked up the slack" when Daniel missed time in 2010... I don't see it. When Daniel was out his scoring significantly decreased - he scored 1.48 points per game when Daniel played, then 1 point per game when he was out. What is so wildly impressive about scoring a point per game once your identical twin isn't at your side? Obviously it's still a strong result, but that probably gives a better idea of what kind of player Henrik Sedin was at his peak than the trophies indicate. He shot almost 25% during that 18 game stretch when his brother went down, which again is good but not something that he would be able to sustain or would be indicative of how good he actually was. Basically on a shooting hot streak he managed to be exactly one point per game when Daniel wasn't there

The argument works to demonstrate that he doesn't just fall of the map without Daniel, which most people likely wouldn't have expected to happen anyway. It doesn't really make him impressive in any kind of all time sense though.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Vancouver fans acting like Toronto fans when someone takes a shot at Wendel Clark. Generally when fans of a team think that everyone is wrong but them about the quality of players from their favourite team.... its not everyone else who is wrong. Legacy is about more than the quality of a player though.



Can't imagine it. It was very important for Detroit that Zetterberg and Datsyuk could and generally did, when the games mattered, play on different lines. Second line would be very weak during those years if the two best forwards were on the same line.




Maybe I'm missing something but this argument got brought up when Sedin got the Hart, it was brought up and used poorly in the recent thread about the 2010 Hart, and now Sedin played "amazingly" and Henrik "picked up the slack" when Daniel missed time in 2010... I don't see it. When Daniel was out his scoring significantly decreased - he scored 1.48 points per game when Daniel played, then 1 point per game when he was out. What is so wildly impressive about scoring a point per game once your identical twin isn't at your side? Obviously it's still a strong result, but that probably gives a better idea of what kind of player Henrik Sedin was at his peak than the trophies indicate. He shot almost 25% during that 18 game stretch when his brother went down, which again is good but not something that he would be able to sustain or would be indicative of how good he actually was. Basically on a shooting hot streak he managed to be exactly one point per game when Daniel wasn't there

The argument works to demonstrate that he doesn't just fall of the map without Daniel, which most people likely wouldn't have expected to happen anyway. It doesn't really make him impressive in any kind of all time sense though.

They literally had a defense man filling on on his wing for parts of that stretch so your opinion is made without context.

Also, 'it's not everyone else who is wrong' is true when it's just driven by emotional rhetoric. But what about when it's a player whom seasoned watchers need to see many times in order to really suss out their brilliant skill sets? You don't think maybe someone who has watched over 1000 games of the Sedins might have a more valid opinion than someone who say them play like 20 games in 20 years?

 

[JianYang]

Vancouver fans acting like Toronto fans when someone takes a shot at Wendel Clark. Generally when fans of a team think that everyone is wrong but them about the quality of players from their favourite team.... its not everyone else who is wrong. Legacy is about more than the quality of a player though.



Can't imagine it. It was very important for Detroit that Zetterberg and Datsyuk could and generally did, when the games mattered, play on different lines. Second line would be very weak during those years if the two best forwards were on the same line.




Maybe I'm missing something but this argument got brought up when Sedin got the Hart, it was brought up and used poorly in the recent thread about the 2010 Hart, and now Sedin played "amazingly" and Henrik "picked up the slack" when Daniel missed time in 2010... I don't see it. When Daniel was out his scoring significantly decreased - he scored 1.48 points per game when Daniel played, then 1 point per game when he was out. What is so wildly impressive about scoring a point per game once your identical twin isn't at your side? Obviously it's still a strong result, but that probably gives a better idea of what kind of player Henrik Sedin was at his peak than the trophies indicate. He shot almost 25% during that 18 game stretch when his brother went down, which again is good but not something that he would be able to sustain or would be indicative of how good he actually was. Basically on a shooting hot streak he managed to be exactly one point per game when Daniel wasn't there

The argument works to demonstrate that he doesn't just fall of the map without Daniel, which most people likely wouldn't have expected to happen anyway. It doesn't really make him impressive in any kind of all time sense though.

Who was Henrik playing with? I'm guessing Burrows played most of the year with him who had 67 points in 82 games and who wasn't exactly a star. I'm not sure who the other linemate was. It wouldn't have been Kesler who finished 37 points off the pace. My guess is samuelsson?

In context, a PPG with that cast is still pretty impressive. Also a PPG would only leave you a stone's throw away from the top 10 in scoring back then regardless of the supporting cast.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

him scoring at a pt/game clip without daniel is completely absolutely missing the point

the reason ppl cared is because this was probably the most pure assist guy in the league, even moreso than thornton or datsyuk, and when he lost his goal scoring winger, he took it upon himself to score ten goals in 18 games. that performance solidified that he would get the C in the next offseason, after luongo had to step down. he carried the load.

remember, this is a guy who other than that season had a career high of 22 goals.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Henrik at his peak was the best playmaker in the league, or atleast right there in a 2 person class with Thornton. To diminish their peak or ability I don't think is fair. (Not saying everyone was)

The Henrik through the legs pass to Burrows in the WCF is I think underappreciated for how incredible a skill play it is. He knows where he's doing the whole way, who even thinks to try that?? Never seen anything like it. That WCF was the Twins at their best.



I think their legacy summed up is unique superstars that did things on the ice you'll never see again.

But also too a story of great perseverance in that it took them longer to reach their potential and in the face of much doubt/criticism early on.

 

[sr edler]

Multiple things can be true at the same time. These guys were absolutely great and exciting players at their best, but they were also a bit too nice and timid (pro sports can be quite cynical at times) and had a tendency to disappear at times in crunch time.

I watched these guys before most people here, meaning before they came over to NA, and they had already an instance of dominating regular season performances just to fall short in the finals, in 1999 with MoDo against Brynäs.

I think Henrik had more clutch moments in the SCPs than Näslund though, for sure. They were better than Näslund, or at least Henrik was, for whatever that's worth.

Patrick Marleau could hardly crack the top 10 in scoring riding shotgun with prime Joe Thornton, but he would somehow have challenged for (or won) multiple Art Rosses playing with a clone of himself? Okay.

I don't like to talk too much about player ”legacies”, because it's just way too corny, but I would certainly take the Sedins, legacy wise, over Matthews and Marner, at this point of the latter players' careers, for whatever that is worth, haha. And unless M&M starts getting anywhere in the post-season, it'll most likely stay that way.

 

[JackSlater]

They literally had a defense man filling on on his wing for parts of that stretch so your opinion is made without context.

Also, 'it's not everyone else who is wrong' is true when it's just driven by emotional rhetoric. But what about when it's a player whom seasoned watchers need to see many times in order to really suss out their brilliant skill sets? You don't think maybe someone who has watched over 1000 games of the Sedins might have a more valid opinion than someone who say them play like 20 games in 20 years?

Yeah, he no longer had an elite linemate anymore, literally his perfect linemate. Predictably his scoring dropped. It's what is made of it, as if him scoring a point per game is some very impressive thing when compared to the best players in the world. I'm mainly amazed that it gets brought up as a positive.

I'm pretty sure that Vancouver/Sedin fans would be the ones who get "emotional" about it. The Sedins didn't play some game that was difficult to grasp. The same weak argument gets brought out from time to time regarding Lidstrom and voters taking years to grasp what he was doing, as if it was something unique (it wasn't). Their game was very visible with a lot of puck possession. People who are not as invested in theirVancouver's success are just more likely to see them for what they were.

Who was Henrik playing with? I'm guessing Burrows played most of the year with him who had 67 points in 82 games and who wasn't exactly a star. I'm not sure who the other linemate was. It wouldn't have been Kesler who finished 37 points off the pace. My guess is samuelsson?

In context, a PPG with that cast is still pretty impressive. Also a PPG would only leave you a stone's throw away from the top 10 in scoring back then regardless of the supporting cast.

I would think Burrows and random fill ins. It's fine and something that sometimes happens with star centres. If Sedin played the whole season at that pace he would have finished tied for 14 in scoring, tied for 19 in points per game. Maybe he goes up a little with more stability, but he also wouldn't get to ride a ~25% shooting percentage for a whole season. I'm pretty confident that that is the general level of Sedin. Again it's fine what he did but it gets brought up as some big plus when it's not all that great.