Lefebvre Discussion

[Runner77]

what a sucky coach.

just sucks at coaching. period.

nothing else you can really say.

It's not rocket science. Pro sports is results-oriented. If someone is handed a job and fails at it based on a variety of evaluative factors and knowing how the individual who appointed the AHL coach has too close a relationship to act objectively in the face of multiple red flags, then the individual is being unfairly retained.

We don't need to know his coaching style or methods, we only need to know whether there is a direct correlation between his actions and the results obtained. We've heard his sorry-ass condescending demeanor whenever he's been interviewed, the guy thinks he's a know-it-all. The guy has developed no one, has won nothing and despite that, can't act with any humility. Yeah, we really need to dig deep to figure out what this guy is about -- he's not NHL material. If you've been in the AHL for 5 years, further to having been an NHL player and you can't get anyone to hire you once your 5 years are up, you have all the information you need to make a decision about Lefebvre.

 

[Goldenhands]

Dietz
Ellis
Leblanc
Quailer
Avtsin
Bennett
Dumont
Nattinen
Tinordi
Bozon

What those guys have in common? They all played under Lefebvre in the farm and are now all gone as well as done as NHL prospects, none of those guys have revived their carreer elsewhere, busts are gonna bust, so why blaming Lefebvre for their development when they cant develop elsewhere either?

 

[Runner77]

And when there is a problem the only person to blame is the player. This is literal insanity. Pre-Babcock Maple Leafs 2.0.

Apparently, Lefebvre has no impact on a player's outcome. He's performance neutral. I wonder why he's even there.

 

[Garo]

That the defence of Lefebvre can be quite easily resumed by "We don't actually know what he's doing" is both endlessly amusing and infuriating.

 

[WatchfulElm]

That the defence of Lefebvre can be quite easily resumed by "We don't actually know what he's doing" is both endlessly amusing and infuriating.

I'm not defending Lefebvre, I'm defending common sense. I don't care at all about Lefebvre but I care about common sense.

Calling for someone's head over a job you've actually never seen him doing first hand? Only in the ultra-fanatic sport universe you will ever see that.

Know-it-all armchair GMs will never cease exasperate me.

 

[Pickles]

Not surprised with this decision. Nepotism runs deep in this organization.

 

[Garo]

I'm not defending Lefebvre, I'm defending common sense. I don't care at all about Lefebvre but I care about common sense.

No you don't, otherwise you wouldn't question pro-sports and how results-oriented they are. Because the very fact that they are is simple common sense. What else would they be?

You have no position, no argument, and a lot of words that actually said nothing at all. You rejecting what we think because of what we don't know, yet we're basing our observations on what we do see, is not a serious attempt at arguing anything.

 

[Pickles]

Dietz
Ellis
Leblanc
Quailer
Avtsin
Bennett
Dumont
Nattinen
Tinordi
Bozon

What those guys have in common? They all played under Lefebvre in the farm and are now all gone as well as done as NHL prospects, none of those guys have revived their carreer elsewhere, busts are gonna bust, so why blaming Lefebvre for their development when they cant develop elsewhere either?

An AHL coach can make or break a kids career. Who's to say if these kids were coached better that one or two would make it to the show. When absolutely nothing to coming up the pipe line it's one of three things. Timmins needs to be replaced, Lefebre needs to be replaced, the entire scouting and development system needs a complete overhaul.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

An AHL coach can make or break a kids career. Who's to say if these kids were coached better that one or two would make it to the show.

Yup ! They were all headed to NHL stardom thanks to the godly coaching they received when they were 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 years old kids from obese, donut-eating dad-coaches.

But then Sylvain Lefebvre happened. It magically ruined them.

lol ?

 

[Pickles]

Yup ! They were all headed to NHL stardom thanks to the godly coaching they received when they were 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 years old kids from obese, donut-eating dad-coaches.

But then Sylvain Lefebvre happened. It magically ruined them.

lol ?

Can you name me one player that the Habs drafted during the Bergevin era that made the jump from the AHL to the NHL? There's something wrong somewhere.

 

[Whitesnake]

I edited my post above to say this.. Habs have drafted low too many times in the first round in the last couple of years and traded too many early round picks for immediate help at the deadline.. At some point, thats the tag price to have a competitive team that makes the playoffs almost every year..

Didn't happen in 2013. Didn't happen in 2012. And for the other years, we are NOT talking about producing huge NHL'ers here. We are talking about AHL succeess. And that league is filled with 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th rounders that do well over there even if they can't reach the next level.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Very good post, nobody really know how competent Lefebvre is for the job, I know his first goal is players development over win must mode, but one thing I know he has very few good players to work with.. I would be more worried if kids we drafted like Tinordi would blossom elsewhere but its not happening yet.

the guy couldnt get an assistant coach job in the NHL, that's how good he is.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Can you name me one player that the Habs drafted during the Bergevin era that made the jump from the AHL to the NHL? There's something wrong somewhere.

You know that under your own criteria, only a handful of players have played at least a full season with Lefebvre, right ? If we're gonna blame Lefebvre for failing to teach, you have to use a sample where he actually taught more than a tryout. Here are the players falling under your criteria:

2012
Charles Hudon, 122OA : Just finished 3rd AHL season

2013
Michael McCarron, 25OA : two AHL seasons, several callups
Jacob De La Rose : three AHL seasons with callups
Sven Andrighetto : two full AHL seasons and two more with callups
Jeremy Gregoire, 176OA : just finished 2nd AHL season after a long CHL stay

2014
Nikita Scherbak, 26OA : Just finished second AHL season
Brett Lernout , 73OA : Just finished 2nd AHL season
Daniel Audette, 147 OA : Just finished first AHL season

It's an awfully small sample, but I have no reason to believe any of these players was significantly mishandled. Do you ?

Understand, I'm not saying Lefebvre is the pinnacle of AHL coaching. I'm just amused that you think he is ruining players.

I'm really pleased with McCarron's progress. Anything Hudon does will be a bonus. The rest I don't really care for but the jury is still out on many of them. Did you expect Lefevbre to turn Gregoire into Max Domi or something ?

The something wrong here is your question.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Pleased with McCarron's progress?

He was PPG in the AHL THEN his coach told him he will never be a scorer. And he's been garbage ever since.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Another example is DLR was a better, more effective player as a newly drafted 18 year old than he is now.

Beau didn't develop at all.

Bigger players like Tinner and Mac were put in fighting roles.

Seems that players are better walking into to the farm than walking out. Carr is another name that sticks out where he seems to be getting worse the longer he's under Sly. I mean really, we haven't developed any players in the farm in 5 years. The ones we have came straight to the Habs or developed in Europe and for the most part have done just fine. Gally, Chucky, Lehkonen etc.

 

[A Loyal Demidog]

I honestly hope people don't give in & boycott the Laval Rockets until he's out.

 

[Lshap]

This thread is funny. I'm amazed by the level of pure hatred toward a coach nobody here has ever been coached by, that nobody knows personally, and whose team very few people here have followed on a nightly basis other than on the scoresheet. The intensity of the hatred is totally insane. The board has decided to make him the scapegoat for everything that goes wrong in the farm system and everybody is following the herd like... goats!

And before somebody screams "but look at THE RESULTS!", let me tell you something : no coach in the world can make a bad team be a good team. Mike Sullivan, now considered among the top coaches in the NHL, was once fired by the Bruins from failing to get any result. Mike Babcock, widely considered as the best coach in the NHL, has failed to bring his team far in the playoffs for many years. Should the Leafs fire him?

I'm not even saying that Lefebvre is a good coach. The truth is that, like 100% of the people on this board, I have no idea because I have no first hand experience of his coaching methods. All I know is that fans usually judge a coach's competency by the results only, and that's normal because that's the only part of his record that we can actually get a grip on. And when the management of a team decides to follow the herd too, that sometimes leads to bad decisions... like the Bruins firing Sullivan.

So I don't know about Lefebvre. All I know is that I'm happy that we have a GM who, by everyone's account, is a very hard worker (Timmins interview today is worth watching), who believes stability in an organisation is important, who chose the people he thinks are the best in every position, and who won't let a herd of hateful and impatient armchair quarterbacks make him change his stance everytime the wind changes direction. And for that, I applaud him.

I'm happy to hear good arguments in defence of Lefevbre, but your entire point comes down to "We don't know". Which is why, personally, I avoided any criticism of him the past five years, because I didn't know much about him, other than the results.

But at some point, you must become accountable for results. What other way is there to judge a coach? You said it yourself -- Sullivan was fired because he failed to get results. Almost every current NHL coach has been fired for the same reason. When someone cannot get positive results over a reasonable amount of time, they're fired. It doesn't follow that firing them was a bad decision; it simply acknowledges that something wasn't working -- coaching style, personal dynamics, experience, etc. Sullivan became a great coach with a different team at a different time, but with Boston something wasn't working. Babcock has only been with the Leafs for two seasons -- even he won't get an unlimited pass if he has zero success in five years. When a coach cannot sell his system and mindset to his roster he cannot do his job, no matter what latent genius he carries in his DNA.

Lefevbre's record with his teams has been awful. Which would be okay if he sacrificed team success for player development. But even there... nope. The players emerging from the Bulldogs/Ice Caps have been underwhelming to bad. What possible reason can there be for this guy getting more rope for less success than practically every other coach?

 

[Lshap]

Bergevin appears to have an issue distancing himself from those he appoints, when the time comes to evaluate their performances and making them accountable. And that goes for scouting and development equally. Five years is more than enough time to decide if someone has done the job. I don't care how hard Bergevin works or how hard his minions say he works, at the end of the day, hard work is only one ingredient amongst many that contributes to success.

We need a GM that works both hard and smart, not just one who gets cheap accolades about working the phones, who allegedly gets up every day and wonders how to make the team better (hint: take a closer look at those you have given jobs for life) or who is in constant contact with every GM in the league -- I wouldn't be surprised if all GMs "work hard" and they all do what Bergevin does. Somehow, some of them are getting results that Bergevin can't. Maybe it's time to give a sendoff to those who are toxically too close to him, who are severely impairing his judgment -- and one of the low hanging fruits in this department is Lefebvre.

Yeah, this is one of Bergevin's obvious weaknesses: His reticence to fire friends. Which of course pairs nicely with the complementary fault of hiring them in the first place. To be fair, every GM hires friends; let's not feign outrage at the bro-mindset on the Habs when almost every GM is guilty of some nepotism. The problem here is the people who've been passed up, like Larry Robinson, and the people who've stuck around like the rotten fish from two Christmases ago, like Lefevbre. I can live with subtle nepotism. It's the blatant kind that kills me.

 

[DAChampion]

I'm not defending Lefebvre, I'm defending common sense. I don't care at all about Lefebvre but I care about common sense.

Calling for someone's head over a job you've actually never seen him doing first hand? Only in the ultra-fanatic sport universe you will ever see that.

Know-it-all armchair GMs will never cease exasperate me.

You're not defending common sense at all if you think that coaching is irrelevant.

 

[Lshap]

I honestly hope people don't give in & boycott the Laval Rockets until he's out.

My wife actually said the exact same thing -- she refuses to see their games while this guy remains the coach. It's a damn shame, because I would love to get tickets to see them but feel genuinely conflicted.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Yeah, this is one of Bergevin's obvious weaknesses: His reticence to fire friends. Which of course pairs nicely with the complementary fault of hiring them in the first place. To be fair, every GM hires friends; let's not feign outrage at the bro-mindset on the Habs when almost every GM is guilty of some nepotism. The problem here is the people who've been passed up, like Larry Robinson, and the people who've stuck around like the rotten fish from two Christmases ago, like Lefevbre. I can live with subtle nepotism. It's the blatant kind that kills me.

Well said. His judgement is being clouded beyond the extent that is tolerably human.

 

[Lshap]

Apparently, Lefebvre has no impact on a player's outcome. He's performance neutral. I wonder why he's even there.

That's another good point. At best, his evaluation would say he's had five years without causing damage, which is only impressive if you're out on bail.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Pleased with McCarron's progress?

He was PPG in the AHL THEN his coach told him he will never be a scorer. And he's been garbage ever since.

PPG in the AHL ? lol, that never happened for more than a stretch.

McCarron's output in the AHL is precisely where it should be considering the raw player he was.

This season in the NHL, he has had a few rough games but for the most part showed signs of maturity, more poise, smarter decisions.

I mean, I would kill for McCarron to be the next Keith Primeau and maybe that will happen as a late bloomer but when comparing both at 18, 19 years old, Primeau was miles ahead.

I liked McCarron's play a lot last season. I'm pretty sure the Habs are optimistic he will play full time this season. I think he will become as good as Brian Boyle, and might be even better.

He is miles better than he was in London. It would be unfair to not see that the diamond in the rough has been polished in the AHL. He's better at *everything* than he used to be and you call him garbage ?

 

[WeThreeKings]

PPG in the AHL ? lol, that never happened for more than a stretch.

McCarron's output in the AHL is precisely where it should be considering the raw player he was.

This season in the NHL, he has had a few rough games but for the most part showed signs of maturity, more poise, smarter decisions.

I mean, I would kill for McCarron to be the next Keith Primeau and maybe that will happen as a late bloomer but when comparing both at 18, 19 years old, Primeau was miles ahead.

I liked McCarron's play a lot last season. I'm pretty sure the Habs are optimistic he will play full time this season. I think he will become as good as Brian Boyle, and might be even better.

He is miles better than he was in London. It would be unfair to not see that the diamond in the rough has been polished in the AHL. He's better at *everything* than he used to be and you call him garbage ?

He started out PPG in the AHL. It was the first quarter-half of the season. You can go look at the game logs.

When he came out of the OHL, his hands were good, he was scoring around the net and from far out with his shot. He was beating defenders in a variety of ways, showing his play making and good at screening the goalie to cause havoc.

Since being with Lefebvre? Those offensive points of his game, stagnating and down grading. He provides no impact in the offensive zone. His skating hasn't improved. He doesn't know what to do with the puck on the boards in either zone.

He's a ****ing mess and he's looked worse and worse.

 

[jaffy27]

An AHL coach can make or break a kids career. Who's to say if these kids were coached better that one or two would make it to the show. When absolutely nothing to coming up the pipe line it's one of three things. Timmins needs to be replaced, Lefebre needs to be replaced, the entire scouting and development system needs a complete overhaul.

I can make a list twice that length for every NHL team.

Having said that, Lefebvre should be fired wether he's good or not