Post-Game Talk: Leafs win 6-3

[Anthrax442]

Those players should be more embarrassed that they play for the Coyotes than for some young kid scored a Michigan on them.

 

[Superstar]

I don't watch the talking heads so I don't know what theybwere saying.

But if they were discussing the Terry incident, then yes it was all about beating up players who had the gall to show too much skill - and we have the commentary on tape to prove it.

I don't think the commentary by someone else is indicative of a widely shared view. Zegras is not the first skilled player in hockey, nor the most skilled - there has been hundreds and hundreds of skilled players that had graced hockey throughout it's 100 plus year history, and I don't think there's sufficient evidence that players get beat up for showing too much skill. How often did Bobby Orr get beat up for literally skating end-to-end and circles around the competition? He was a revolutionary in the game for a defenseman, and would be an ideal target for getting beat up for having too much skill. Today, I think it's certainly an attractive narrative to get some reform happening, especially by those that don't like fighting in hockey. I think Beagle did cross the line by pounding away at a hapless player in that situation, but it wasn't because the player had too much skill.

 

[GobigorGohome]

The next step up in the Michigan Goal will be players going end to end with the puck On the blade (no stickhandling) and shooting ala lacrosse.

 

[BigGulpsEh]

Beagle should have let up on terry, he went too far

 

[3headeddragon]

Policing dirty play is the leagues job. You don’t need fights to do so if the DoPS does it’s job.

And who cares if a player is cocky and celebrates? Who does that actually harm other than their ego?

And there in lies the problem. The inconsistencies of DoPs and reffing. First they need those to be consistent then they could consider removing fighting.

If they remove fighting first, I predict an increase of star out injured from border line hits.

 

[ktownhockey]

It's such a bad look on some people here when they get all bent out of shape over either of these things happening:

a) a woman expresses a hockey opinion
b) a non-NHLer or non-former NHLer expresses a hockey opinion

Jennifer Botteril is both, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the position she took on the broadcast. She is fully entitled to that opinion and the mere fact that Bieksa played in the NHL doesn't make his opinion any more valid here than hers.

You are 100 percent correct. That doesn't mean people have to agree with her and can't have negative reactions to it. I wasn't overly impressed with how hard she was pushing her point. I clearly disagree with her stance, and that's ok. She has said things over the season I do agree with.

The point is, and I think this is what you are getting at. Who they are should not impact the way you think about their stance. Which is totally fair. People use to go offside on Don Cherry's points/stance and other non-NHLers as well. Just because it's a woman should not take that ability to disagree strongly away. That being said, If people are only saying this because "She's a woman", never played in the NHL.... then that's a problem.

Just my take.....

 

[ktownhockey]

People are now bragging about their amateur sports accomplishments. Now that's cringe.

We've entered full on AL Bundy territory.

4 TD's Polk High Championship game baby!

 

[ktownhockey]

Toronto fans thinking their mthl hockey experience gives them special insight into the NHL game is the biggest curse we have.

Anyone born after 89-91 ish had a different experience in hockey. I am an 83 bday and YES we fought in Bantam. We loved it! I'm not sure why it's such a big deal. If someone takes it too far like Beagle did.... that's a problem.

Simmonds let off after McEwen or whatever his name is went down. That's how it should work. Subban tonight continued on Whalstrom... that should be a suspension as well as Beagles.

 

[Bluelines]

You are bringing up the fact that for the first time on forever they finally brought on an actual skill star to be a commentator?

Yes Wayne is a breath of fresh air. thank you TNT for understanding how silly the other hockey broadcasts have always been. And the crap we're still stuck with up here in Canada.

And yes, as I showed you with direct quotes, the conversation would be much different if more of the "experienced" voices we heard from were actually skilled star players, like the brand new hire Wayne Gretzky.

You're delusional if you think Wayne is the first star ex-NHLer star to be a commentator on a NHL broadcast. It's been pointed out to you that Wayne is just parroting what is common knowledge, fighting is on the decline, no where in that interview did Wayne take a personal stance on fighting. To no ones surprise you ignored that and chose to bubble wrap you in your own misconception.

 

[Bluelines]

The idea that this is even the way many "experienced" nhlers think is the bigger problem.

Kids around the world are going gaga over the skills Terry and zegras display - and a large chunk of hockeydom actually think that its a problem that deserves punishment.

Completely ass backwards.

There is no proof that that statement is anything less than 100% BS. You're making stuff up now. Stop it.

 

[Sypher04]

And there in lies the problem. The inconsistencies of DoPs and reffing. First they need those to be consistent then they could consider removing fighting.

If they remove fighting first, I predict an increase of star out injured from border line hits.

No argument. I agree completely. DoPS would have to actually give out meaningful, consistent punishments which really should not be that hard lol

 

[zeke]

You're delusional if you think Wayne is the first star ex-NHLer star to be a commentator on a NHL broadcast. It's been pointed out to you that Wayne is just parroting what is common knowledge, fighting is on the decline, no where in that interview did Wayne take a personal stance on fighting. To no ones surprise you ignored that and chose to bubble wrap you in your own misconception.

Heh.

Your one example was a guy literally hired this year.

We all know we have been raised listening largely to ex 4th liners and backup goalies. It only makes you look silly to deny it.

 

[LeafGrief]

All of the conversation about fighting is so weird. Like, I get that people enjoy the fighting and I can see the role that it plays in the NHL game. I don't like fighting very much, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't cheering as Simmonds opened a can of whoop ass.

Thing is though, there's no fighting in international hockey. Not a single fight at the Olympics or the World Juniors, and those are both examples of hockey at its best. It's not allowed in the NCAA either. Fighting can be a part of hockey, but the typical "figure skating" jokes or anything arguing that fighting is part of the fabric of hockey is very obviously wrong. It's part of the game, but they could get rid of it overnight and the game would be fine; it's just a rule.

 

[zeke]

There is no proof that that statement is anything less than 100% BS. You're making stuff up now. Stop it.

Yes it was just a coincidence that the the broadcast said EXACTLY THAT in the live coverage of the incident.

100% BS for sure.

 

[ACC1224]

All of the conversation about fighting is so weird. Like, I get that people enjoy the fighting and I can see the role that it plays in the NHL game. I don't like fighting very much, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't cheering as Simmonds opened a can of whoop ass.

Thing is though, there's no fighting in international hockey. Not a single fight at the Olympics or the World Juniors, and those are both examples of hockey at its best. It's not allowed in the NCAA either. Fighting can be a part of hockey, but the typical "figure skating" jokes or anything arguing that fighting is part of the fabric of hockey is very obviously wrong. It's part of the game, but they could get rid of it overnight and the game would be fine; it's just a rule.

Fighting is a penalty in all those events(same with baseball, football, basketball etc) just as it is in the NHL. The difference obviously is the severity of the penalty.
There aren’t fights in every NHL game either.

 

[4thline]

All of the conversation about fighting is so weird. Like, I get that people enjoy the fighting and I can see the role that it plays in the NHL game. I don't like fighting very much, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't cheering as Simmonds opened a can of whoop ass.

Thing is though, there's no fighting in international hockey. Not a single fight at the Olympics or the World Juniors, and those are both examples of hockey at its best. It's not allowed in the NCAA either. Fighting can be a part of hockey, but the typical "figure skating" jokes or anything arguing that fighting is part of the fabric of hockey is very obviously wrong. It's part of the game, but they could get rid of it overnight and the game would be fine; it's just a rule.

The weirder thing is that people are connecting the condemnation of a blatant Aggressor penalty causing serious injury to the condemnation of fighting.

 

[Gary Nylund]

All of the conversation about fighting is so weird. Like, I get that people enjoy the fighting and I can see the role that it plays in the NHL game. I don't like fighting very much, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't cheering as Simmonds opened a can of whoop ass.

Thing is though, there's no fighting in international hockey. Not a single fight at the Olympics or the World Juniors, and those are both examples of hockey at its best. It's not allowed in the NCAA either. Fighting can be a part of hockey, but the typical "figure skating" jokes or anything arguing that fighting is part of the fabric of hockey is very obviously wrong. It's part of the game, but they could get rid of it overnight and the game would be fine; it's just a rule.

The best (and most entertaining) hockey I've ever seen was the 1987 Canada Cup final, many other international hockey battles are right up there too. No fights, just great hockey.

 

[LeafGrief]

The difference obviously is the severity of the penalty.

Yes, that is indeed how enforcement of rules works. The NHL penalizes fighting with coincidental majors, which we all understand to be almost entirely irrelevant.

 

[Bluelines]

Heh.

Your one example was a guy literally hired this year.

We all know we have been raised listening largely to ex 4th liners and backup goalies. It only makes you look silly to deny it.

Mark Messier, Dave Poulin, Ray Ferraro, Jeff O'Neil, Roenick, Olczyk, Andreychuk all skilled point producers that were not goons, all off the top of my head are current commentators. Your insular view, that if does not happen in your orbit, it happens no where is sad ... your simply wrong.

 

[kb]

The weirder thing is that people are connecting the condemnation of a blatant Aggressor penalty causing serious injury condemnation of fighting.

Yup. I love a good throwdown between 2 ready and willing combatants in the heat of the moment.

The idea that "you must fight because you laid a clean hit" is where this starts to go off the rails, but even that I can still understand it if they are squared up and willing to go - but it's still just an unnecessary 'Richard' measuring contest.

But the whole notion that a person needs to be beaten up for throwing a clean hit or exhibiting skill is, well.....the height of stupidity. How is this "policing the game' when no infraction occurred?

And for those who said that "well, Terry knew what he was in for because he went into the scrum to stick up for a teammate" - just remember this. Did he ask for (or deserve) the unprovoked pummeling? The irony is that you'd all be bitching that they were "wussies" for not coming to the aid of a teammate if it were a Leaf. Imagine if that was Marner laid out instead of Terry?

People need to think before they type.

 

[ITM]

Not at all.

Violence is fun and good.

But the idea that demonstrating too much skill earns you a beating is insanely dumb.

But again, this idea of removing violence from the outside, right? If you play any high level of sports, intimidation is intrinsic to success. Think about the playoffs for a moment: It's one long tournament in which demonstrating skill earns you a beating, albeit one that's given out piecemeal and by other skilled players. And the refs and the league have consented to it since the game's inception.

I get the finer point. Skilled players should be allowed to practice their craft without fear of senseless retaliation. But we all know the difference between hot-dogging it as a means to embarrass and improvisation due to elite level ability. I count the Zegras goal as the latter, but not for a second do I think that a team scored on like that should wilt away. Beagle was absolutely out of line. The way to handle it is to take his number and police it at Arizona's next available opportunity. Beagle's was a different sort of accident, an outlier and certainly against the code that once was; you don't punch down and you certainly don't ambush the most skilled in the game like that.

But you absolutely do wait for Terry and Zegras and players like that to try that again and smoke them. Maybe it's another skilled forward, maybe it's a redwood sized defenceman, maybe it's a little Billy Smith...

...as Leafs fans, we're living through that maturation process with Matthews, Marner and Nylander, aren't we?

And our team will be better for it. Just like the game is better because of it.

Hard knocks for all in the game of hockey I say - good for the soul.

 

[zeke]

But again, this idea of removing violence from the outside, right? If you play any high level of sports, intimidation is intrinsic to success. Think about the playoffs for a moment: It's one long tournament in which demonstrating skill earns you a beating, albeit one that's given out piecemeal and by other skilled players. And the refs and the league have consented to it since the game's inception.

I get the finer point. Skilled players should be allowed to practice their craft without fear of senseless retaliation. But we all know the difference between hot-dogging it as a means to embarrass and improvisation due to elite level ability. I count the Zegras goal as the latter, but not for a second do I think that a team scored on like that should wilt away. Beagle was absolutely out of line. The way to handle it is to take his number and police it at Arizona's next available opportunity. Beagle's was a different sort of accident, an outlier and certainly against the code that once was; you don't punch down and you certainly don't ambush the most skilled in the game like that.

But you absolutely do wait for Terry and Zegras and players like that to try that again and smoke them. Maybe it's another skilled forward, maybe it's a redwood sized defenceman, maybe it's a little Billy Smith...

...as Leafs fans, we're living through that maturation process with Matthews, Marner and Nylander, aren't we?

And our team will be better for it. Just like the game is better because of it.

Hard knocks for all in the game of hockey I say - good for the soul.

if you can hit a player while he's trying that move, that's great.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Well guess what Jenn happens to be a neighbour living in Rattray Marsh .. literally ran into her running with her 2 little girls in tow in da March area yesterday with her mom too .. great people .. from Winnipeg and now live in Mississauga .. she is not against fighting in game as an emotional natural reaction .. what she does want out of game is da staged fight .. she does not want goon spots on team .. and she prefers a skilled physical game with a league that does not change its playoff reffing rules from regular season .. she is not a non contact game supporter .. she is pretty bright .. she likely represents a good mix between us older guys who played when game was all about intimidation of your opponent and todays youngster most of whom would prefer non contact .. I think she is gonna be da next Ron Mclean of hockey .. she has her sh*t together .. great pick up by HNIC I would say

 

[kb]

If your toughness and physicality only comes out when your team is down 3 goals, it doesn't mean you hate to lose.

It means you are a whiny b*tch/sore loser/poor sport. And hockey has a lot of these types.

There is a low key reason game management is a thing, much as we all absolutely hate it. Blowouts create ugliness - pure and simple. If the score was tied, does Beagle still do that to Terry? Never in a million years.

 

[Cams]

All of the conversation about fighting is so weird. Like, I get that people enjoy the fighting and I can see the role that it plays in the NHL game. I don't like fighting very much, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't cheering as Simmonds opened a can of whoop ass.

Thing is though, there's no fighting in international hockey. Not a single fight at the Olympics or the World Juniors, and those are both examples of hockey at its best. It's not allowed in the NCAA either. Fighting can be a part of hockey, but the typical "figure skating" jokes or anything arguing that fighting is part of the fabric of hockey is very obviously wrong. It's part of the game, but they could get rid of it overnight and the game would be fine; it's just a rule.

The bolded may be true, however those are tournament style formats, same as the old Canada Cup, or World Cup, and those are a national team make up, so your typical "fighter" won't likely be on those teams. You can't compare that to regular season NHL (CHL), or even playoffs. Also.......fighting isn't allowed in NCAA, and it's also not allowed in any league, but it is penalized. Fights happen in the NCAA, but they get a suspension for the next game, plus they are mandated to wear full face shields/cages - kind of a deterrent itself.

I 100% disagree with your last statement though (getting rid of it overnight....). Fights serve more than just a self policing aspect of the game. We've seen it many times (although not so much recently) where a fight can swing momentum in a game. It can also serve as a release valve for tensions in a game - hence Simmons wanting the fight towards the end of the last Winnipeg game. In fact that last game against the Jets played out exactly how I wanted it to. Win the game, and get a 3 or more lead with enough time to take care of the business from the last game. Still would've been nice to have that last fight though, but the refs decided differently. That would not have been the case even just 3 or years ago.