Pre-Game Talk: Leafs vs Lightning. Game 5

[leafsfan5]

An accumulation of failures since 2017 yes, losing to the b2b champions in 2/4 games is not a failure. Teams are allowed to have bad games and get outplayed. Leafs lost 8-1 to Tampa in the regular season, guess what they did the next time they faced them? Shut them out 5-0

If you're going to cry over a loss and think the series is over after a bad game, idk man you're beyond help.

Florida the President trophy winners are down in the series, Calgary one of the other favorites are down in the series. Leafs are tired with Tampa 2-2 with home ice advantage in the best of 3, and all I'm seeing is pessimistic losers. Same losers shouldn't be cheering when Leafs win since y'all are so tired of the accumulation of failures. If you're gonna cry about Leafs sucking, atleast do it if they lose the series lol

It's not about being 2-2, it's about how we got to 2-2. This team had an opportunity to go up 3-1 against the B2B champs and played with the intensity of a preseason game. Game 4 was the chance to show they've learned from their failures and they absolutely bombed it. How the hell do you blow a 3-1 lead and not learn that every playoff game is extremely valuable and not one to throw away???? They're content with simply being good and not great. That is failure.

Had we lost game 4 in a close game in overtime no one would care because we fought and showed the will to win. We're against a great opponent, sometimes playing well isn't enough. But they didn't even care to show up. Apparently, a 2-2 split is all we need because we're the mighty Maple Leafs

Also, lmao at the idea that teams are allowed to have bad games. Here are the Leafs "bad" games come critical junctures in a playoff series:

Game 4 2022
Game 7 2021
Game 6 2021
Game 5 2021
Game 5 2020
Game 3 2020
Game 7 2019
Game 6 2018

That's a whole lot of "bad games" when things matter most. Maybe this isn't one bad game and an example of the problem this team has continuously had over the years?

Sorry I'm not all rosy and positive. They've once again shown who they are when they had an opportunity to show us otherwise. Why is anyone supposed to believe the 6th time will be different from the first 5? They indicated in game 4 it's not and I won't be blinded by positivity due to that

 

[leafsfan5]

It's been like that for years. It's not a shock that they have a good record when they're trailing in a playoff series, a poor record when it's tied, and an abysmal record when they're winning. They settle for good enough, and always have. It's just like last year, when Keefe wanted them to change their play style to something more suited for the postseason and they didn't care to listen because they were winning games.

Now this year, the core players were called out by the management team because they kept dropping games to lesser teams and said it didn't matter because they show up against the good teams. But here we are against the defending champions, and they've only really shown up in half of the games. I don't think anybody is unhappy with their record in the series in a vacuum, but the way they got there is pitiful. How the team is still satisfied with winning a single playoff game in a row after all the years of failure is beyond me.

This isn't meant to be a defense of Keefe, as being aware of a problem and not being able to fix it isn't acceptable. But it must be incredibly frustrating to coach this group of players

This is the biggest concern for me. How the hell do we go through all these embarrassing losses and consecutive first round defeats and still play like this? Where is the drive? The will to win and no longer be thought of as soft and pretenders? Why don't these players want this. Us fans want it more than they do, and that is pathetic

I guess all we can do is hope that they suddenly learned from their failures and are willing to do what it takes to put away the B2B champs

 

[glue]

It's not about being 2-2, it's about how we got to 2-2. This team had an opportunity to go up 3-1 against the B2B champs and played with the intensity of a preseason game. Game 4 was the chance to show they've learned from their failures and they absolutely bombed it. How the hell do you blow a 3-1 lead and not learn that every playoff game is extremely valuable and not one to throw away???? They're content with simply being good and not great. That is failure.

Had we lost game 4 in a close game in overtime no one would care because we fought and showed the will to win. We're against a great opponent, sometimes playing well isn't enough. But they didn't even care to show up. Apparently, a 2-2 split is all we need because we're the mighty Maple Leafs

Also, lmao at the idea that teams are allowed to have bad games. Here are the Leafs "bad" games come critical junctures in a playoff series:

Game 4 2022
Game 7 2021
Game 6 2021
Game 5 2021
Game 5 2020
Game 3 2020
Game 7 2019
Game 6 2018

That's a whole lot of "bad games" when things matter most. Maybe this isn't one bad game and an example of the problem this team has continuously had over the years?

Sorry I'm not all rosy and positive. They've once again shown who they are when they had an opportunity to show us otherwise. Why is anyone supposed to believe the 6th time will be different from the first 5? They indicated in game 4 it's not and I won't be blinded by positivity due to that

Amen.

People don’t seem to understand, how you lose matters. We play scared and get completely knocked out of a game mentally. It’s no wonder we have the reputation of being soft. Last night to me was a very bad sign, but we’ll see, pray and hope for the best I guess.

 

[colchar]

This is the biggest concern for me. How the hell do we go through all these embarrassing losses and consecutive first round defeats and still play like this? Where is the drive? The will to win and no longer be thought of as soft and pretenders? Why don't these players want this. Us fans want it more than they do, and that is pathetic

Blue & white disease?

 

[Seras]

Keep winning the odd # games

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Play Lilly over Holl. No big brain changes just play to win from 0-60

 

[Guy Boucher]

IMO Leafs should go with 7D tomorrow.

Bunting-Matthews-Marner
Tavares-Kerfoot-Kase
Mikheyev-Kampf-Engvall
Nylander-Blackwell

Muzzin-Brodie
Rielly-Liljegren
Giordano-Lyubushkin
Holl

PK has been noticeably better with Holl but at even strength where he has struggled a lot, you run can run 3 pairs without him.

I agree. You need Holl to PK, liljegren to transition and Lyubushkin to keep them honest.

11 forwards also let’s you double shift Matthews and helps you get him away from matchups a bit easier.

 

[saffronleaf]

nevermind delete

 

[PanniniClaus]

I agree. You need Holl to PK, liljegren to transition and Lyubushkin to keep them honest.

11 forwards also let’s you double shift Matthews and helps you get him away from matchups a bit easier.

I have been a fan of 11 forwards when coaching, 7 d not so much. I do not recall the Leafs ever using 11 and 7 to good effect. Tampa have done it in the past and made it work.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

PK has been noticeably better with Holl but at even strength where he has struggled a lot, you run can run 3 pairs without him.

Holl has one ES GA in 2 games. The first GA in Game 4. He (or Giordano) successfully cleared the puck out of our zone on 4 separate occasions before Holl couldn't clear the puck on that goal, and 2 were clean opportunities. It was the 5th attempt that Holl could not clear and it led to a GA. I guess that marks his entire series.

His CF% and HDCF% has not been great at ES (our entire team has sucked with Corsi this series, but we are doing a good job with blocking their shots), but Lyubushkin's HDCF% is just as bad and his CF% is worse. He is also worse in GF%, xGF%, and pretty much any other ES metric by a huge margin. I guess he (barely) has more hits than Holl?

Lyubushkin has struggled at ES. Holl has not. Keefe even said Giordano-Holl was his best pairing in Game 3, and both advanced stats and eye-test back that up.

Scratch Lyubushkin, and if you want someone to keep Tampa honest, then you use Clifford or Simmonds. We don't need a defensive liability to keep Tampa honest.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I don't disagree with any of that. But he's not seeing the 4th line.

The Tavares / Nylander combo doesn't work. Hasn't for 82 games. Running them together game after game doesn't exactly help either player excel and it's those two getting most of the heat on here right now.

That's kind of the problem. You don't break up Matthews and Marner. The second line of Mikheyev, Kampf and Engvall is doing well.

If you separate JT and Nylander, where do you play them? You really only have two choices.

1 - You can move Nylander up to the top line with Matthews and Marner, and have Bunting and Kase wirh Tavares on line 3.

2 - You can move one of them to the fourth line. If you do that, Tavares is the obvious choice.

JT can still play PP, although I'd be tempted to replace him with Mikheyev as soon as he's taken the faceoff.

 

[hfman]

And no one, can justify, wtf, this winning strategy suddenly was abandoned.

Smells really fishy to me. Smells like WWE....type fish.

Suddenly we are playing unrecognizable hockey.

And the players have gone from enthusiastic to "get me the f*** out of here".

this is exactly what i said last year against montreal. they came out and hammered the habs to go up 3 games to 1... and then, what? crapped the bed the next games in a row? how exactly does that happen, going from a team of domination for 3 straight games to a fold-like-a-cheap-tent team for the last 3? There's no way. There's no way that happens without some kind of intentional behavior there whether it's a dressing room problem or some kind of stick-it-to-the-media or stick-it-to-all-the negative-fans or something like that. The only logical answer to them tanking the last 3 games to a basement dweller team like the habs that they were totally and utterly dominating is that it has to be in some way intentional.

and now here it goes again. dominate one game, sleep the next. As long as they get at least one game out of tampa everything is okay right? "well at least we got the split, and that's what we were aiming for"? that's the mentality apparently.

Whoever said the leafs lose this in 7 is absolutely right. they win game 5, lose game 6, and lose game 7 again. Last night was the writing on the wall, it's clear as day.

it's going 7 for sure... as if it's arranged, it always seems that way.

It's like we can see it right in front of our eyes even before it happens

 

[All Mod Cons]

this is exactly what i said last year against montreal. they came out and hammered the habs to go up 3 games to 1... and then, what? crapped the bed the next games in a row? how exactly does that happen, going from a team of domination for 3 straight games to a fold-like-a-cheap-tent team for the last 3? There's no way. There's no way that happens without some kind of intentional behavior there whether it's a dressing room problem or some kind of stick-it-to-the-media or stick-it-to-all-the negative-fans or something like that. The only logical answer to them tanking the last 3 games to a basement dweller team like the habs that they were totally and utterly dominating is that it has to be in some way intentional.

and now here it goes again. dominate one game, sleep the next. As long as they get at least one game out of tampa everything is okay right? "well at least we got the split, and that's what we were aiming for"? that's the mentality apparently.

Whoever said the leafs lose this in 7 is absolutely right. they win game 5, lose game 6, and lose game 7 again. Last night was the writing on the wall, it's clear as day.

it's going 7 for sure... as if it's arranged, it always seems that way.

It's like we can see it right in front of our eyes even before it happens

So the Leafs are throwing games?

 

[therealkoho]

So we're trading for Luke Schenn. Monster!!!

they're already sewing the new nameplate on his old #2 jersey

He actually had a decent year in Van

So are you saying that there's a chance?

And the players have gone from enthusiastic to "get me the f*** out of here".

they must be reading the GDT's and all the respect and admiration they constantly receive

 

[notDatsyuk]

So the Leafs are throwing games?

I think the "refs are deliberately screwing us" mantra has been beaten to death (mixed metaphors be damned), and it's obvious to pretty much everyone that it isn't the case here.

If you're one of the people who can't watch a game and honestly say "the other team was better", what choices do you have?

Somewhere, somehow, somebody is forcing the Leafs to deliberately play poorly. Likely candidates include, but are not limited to, Bettman, U.S. owners, bookies, gamblers, the Mafia, the Intelligencia, aliens, Elon Musk, and Eccentrica Gallumbits.

 

[Jojalu]

I'm not going to boast about something a large part of the fanbase can see and have been asking for changes for a long time.

I'll be here win or lose.

I actually care if the team wins or not. The whole "well we gave it a good shot" crowd needs to move on to a different team. No time for those fans.

This is ridiculous. They have every right to be a fan any way they want. Just like you do.

Some fans just don't take it as a personal attavk when they lose.

Every fan wants the team to win. Pretending to be a realist doesn't help in any way. Pissing on people's cornflakes is just plain nonsense. Who cares if someone prefers to look on the brightside and live with optimism or a glass half full attitude?

 

[TorMapleJays]

ODog was bang on today.

 

[Leafed]

Taking advantage of last change I'd go

Bunting Matthews Marner
Blackwell Tavares Nylander
Engvall Kampf Mikheyev
Clifford Kerfoot Kase

Rielly Liljegren
Muzzin Brodie
Gio Holl

Shelter Rielly and Liljegren with OZ starts with lines 1 and 2... Replace Boosh's physicality with Clifford, who is the fastest and most defensively responsible of the 4th line vets... Still don't like that second line, but an attempt to give them a dirty work guy in Blackwell. Probably would alt with Kerfoot

 

[ACC1224]

Game 4 is in the mirror. Come out fast and hungry and take control of the series again.

 

[TonsofPuppies]

ODog was bang on today.

Elaborate?

 

[francis246]

Blows my mind, no one has pointed out, that our entire gameplan, has been aborted.

They have a big defence, and in game one and two and the first period of game three, we swarmed that D.

It was incredible to see, then suddenly, out of nowthere, suddenly, our new strategy was to dump the puck in and withdraw, retreat and see what might develop.

I couldn't believe what I was seeing. But that is what is happening and what happened.

We went from dominating them, to not even playing.

If we come out with this strategy in period one of game five, that is it, the television goes off.

And no one, can justify, wtf, this winning strategy suddenly was abandoned.

Smells really fishy to me. Smells like WWE....type fish.

Someone got a call, and we were told to withdraw, we were embarassing the defending Stanley Cup Champions, but suddenly, Keefe, decides to withdraw a winning engagement.

Me being a trader, I don't buy that it was Keefe. Guy is smart, and Matthews expression, demeanor and body language speaks volumes to me. He smells a whole factory of fish.

I have never seen anything like this, in all my years of watching hockey.

Once the Lightning D gets a chance to roll, their team comes in as a big wave.

But we never let that wave develop initially. We also did this in the regular season regularly.

Suddenly we are playing unrecognizable hockey.

And the players have gone from enthusiastic to "get me the f*** out of here".

As I said all day yesterday. Keefe is about 90% to blame. This isn’t meant to take the blame away from the players. But the messaging has obviously been poor. He always switches up his philosophy mid way throughout the series. This is why Keefe I think has to go if we don’t make it out. We need a veteran coach, if Bruce Boudreau leaves Vancouver he’d be ideal.

If your theory is correct and it is Matthews. Then keefe still deserves to be fired because if you can’t get your best players to snap out of that mentality and stop coddling them then you have no business coaching the team.

 

[deprw]

Tampa without a 11 AAV player(s) is ridiculous. Please show up... if not for fans sake at least for dubas' sake the dude that gave you guys money you asked without even blinking

We have scored six goals out of 25. We shouldn't concentrate on this statistics now. First we have to win and then we can try to break this.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Amen.

People don’t seem to understand, how you lose matters. We play scared and get completely knocked out of a game mentally. It’s no wonder we have the reputation of being soft. Last night to me was a very bad sign, but we’ll see, pray and hope for the best I guess.

This is about coaching.

As I said all day yesterday. Keefe is about 90% to blame. This isn’t meant to take the blame away from the players. But the messaging has obviously been poor. He always switches up his philosophy mid way throughout the series. This is why Keefe I think has to go if we don’t make it out. We need a veteran coach, if Bruce Boudreau leaves Vancouver he’d be ideal.

If your theory is correct and it is Matthews. Then keefe still deserves to be fired because if you can’t get your best players to snap out of that mentality and stop coddling them then you have no business coaching the team.

I hate coaches who do not want a team to get to high or two low. It gives players an excuse.

 

[Cor]

We are winning this one

 

[Zack47]

Game 4 was on Keefe: you don't come out and announce that you came for a split before game 4 is played -- it takes the whole team off the hook for losing. And they did. They were so awful it may have changed the whole series. Keefe is not smart about strategy and the psychological parts of the game.

I wonder how that loss will affect tonight. Confidence, momentum, ... not there....