Confirmed with Link: Leafs don't sign D Jani Hakanpaa to a 2 years, $1.5M AAV

[Hellcat]

Interesting. Was beginning to think the deal was DOA, but seems like it may just be a matter of time now

This contract is DOA.

 

[ponder]

Interesting. Was beginning to think the deal was DOA, but seems like it may just be a matter of time now

Saying "we're working through the Hakanpaa situation", with no further comment/details, does not mean the deal is on IMO. If we were simply fine with his medical situation, I'd think the deal would be done by now, it's been 6 weeks. My personal best guess is that Leafs brass have gotten cold feet after their initial medical assessment, are second-guessing it and re-considering if he's truly going to be able to contribute in the NHL again, and are exploring if we can legally back out of the contract.

Or maybe it goes through. But personally that comment from Tre isn't enough for me to feel confident that it's just a matter of time.

 

[jaric1862]

It’s obviously the league that’s holding this up. The Leafs want to sign him and it’s not like they care if he goes on LTIR.

 

[notbias]

It’s obviously the league that’s holding this up. The Leafs want to sign him and it’s not like they care if he goes on LTIR.

LTIR is not good for us unless it is a significant amount.

They should care and likely do.

 

[Evilhomer]

It’s obviously the league that’s holding this up. The Leafs want to sign him and it’s not like they care if he goes on LTIR.

I can't believe people actually believe that the Leafs want to put this guy on LTIR. The last thing they would want would be to use LTIR.

 

[jaric1862]

LTIR is not good for us unless it is a significant amount.

They should care and likely do.

I can't believe people actually believe that the Leafs want to put this guy on LTIR. The last thing they would want would be to use LTIR.

Obviously, I'm not saying just keep him on LTIR with no intention of him ever playing. There would be no use in signing him in that case. The intention is to keep him on LTIR to rehab and play again.

 

[Stephen]

We're talking the fans money, not the team's money here.

Some teams are near the floor. This doesn't support your position.

Teams chose to pay more, based on the HRR there is so much money generated, and some teams are paying welfare payments to other teams who are near the floor.

Let the fans paying welfare payments to the have not's get some benefit for their payments.

It’s pretty self explanatory that Toronto Maple Leafs fans are getting the short end of the stick in Bettmanomics.

Whatever the Leafs pay out in salary is going to be way less than 50% of their HRR generated from gate receipts, merchandise the local market pays out. Granted a lot of this is corporate money and may not be a living breathing diehard fan. But overall we pay more for a level of quality that is capped artificially.

 

[Stephen]

I can't believe people actually believe that the Leafs want to put this guy on LTIR. The last thing they would want would be to use LTIR.

There’s no functional difference between accruing cap to use later or just have an LTIR stash for the playoffs. You’re budgeting for late season and post season reinforcements by either building a cap buffer or pull a Vegas.

 

[notbias]

There’s no functional difference between accruing cap to use later or just have an LTIR stash for the playoffs. You’re budgeting for late season and post season reinforcements by either building a cap buffer or pull a Vegas.

Yes, there is.

Accruing cap space of $1.5 million until the deadline is more than a $1.5 million player at the deadline.

They can run a 20 man roster and have like enough for a ~4-5 million dollar player at the deadline (rough math might be off).

Obviously, I'm not saying just keep him on LTIR with no intention of him ever playing. There would be no use in signing him in that case. The intention is to keep him on LTIR to rehab and play again.

Just saying that stashing him until healthy seems pointless, especially since they have arguably a better version in Benoit and I don't think they signed Liljegren to sit him.

Keeping him on LTIR hurts the team.

 

[Stephen]

Yes, there is.

Accruing cap space of $1.5 million until the deadline is more than a $1.5 million player at the deadline.

They can run a 20 man roster and have like enough for a ~4-5 million dollar player at the deadline (rough math might be off).

You also have to trade assets/draft capital for a deadline acquisition though. A player stashed away on LTIR doesn't.

 

[Evilhomer]

You also have to trade assets/draft capital for a deadline acquisition though. A player stashed away on LTIR doesn't.

There is no rational basis to argue that the Leafs signed a player to put him on LTIR for an entire season. No team has ever done that. I'm pretty sure the simple answer is that they signed the guy, and then he didn't pass his physical.

 

[notbias]

You also have to trade assets/draft capital for a deadline acquisition though. A player stashed away on LTIR doesn't.

This is true, but Hakanpaa is not a player who I'd care to activate after knee surgery and a year off.

They spent a lot of mid-level picks last year and some were on retention, you can save those picks in this situation.

If they don't want to acquire anyone at the deadline, sure stash a player who will likely see no make no difference on LTIR.

Tarasenko for example went for basically the price of Edmundson but his cap was higher which likely limited the teams he could go to and his price.

 

[Stephen]

There is no rational basis to argue that the Leafs signed a player to put him on LTIR for an entire season. No team has ever done that. I'm pretty sure the simple answer is that they signed the guy, and then he didn't pass his physical.

Sure, but when was the last time an injured UFA generated this much controversy if they were just out a few weeks to start the new season? I don't recall a case like this.

You also have to look at Hakanpaa signing for a fraction of what Dallas signed Ilya Lyubushkin to replace Hakanpaa for. 2 years, $3 million total vs 3 years at $9.75 million.

So unless there was some medical controversy which forced Dallas to move off, the Leafs wouldn't have gotten this player on a deep discount. And if the injury was a typical one, the league wouldn't be sniffing around. So from all of this, it doesn't seem like too much of a leap to think they got this guy to activate at some unusual time.

 

[Stephen]

This is true, but Hakanpaa is not a player who I'd care to activate after knee surgery and a year off.

They spent a lot of mid-level picks last year and some were on retention, you can save those picks in this situation.

If they don't want to acquire anyone at the deadline, sure stash a player who will likely see no make no difference on LTIR.

Tarasenko for example went for basically the price of Edmundson but his cap was higher which likely limited the teams he could go to and his price.

At the end of the day, Hakapaa is making only $1.5 million, so if he's healthy and they use him during the regular season at some point, that's within the realm of possibility. Or bury most of his deal in the minors if he's not the right fit. If not, maybe they activate him when he's ready.

 

[jaric1862]

Yes, there is.

Accruing cap space of $1.5 million until the deadline is more than a $1.5 million player at the deadline.

They can run a 20 man roster and have like enough for a ~4-5 million dollar player at the deadline (rough math might be off).



Just saying that stashing him until healthy seems pointless, especially since they have arguably a better version in Benoit and I don't think they signed Liljegren to sit him.

Keeping him on LTIR hurts the team.

Whoever convinced people that accruing cap space works needs a raise. No contenders actually rely on it because it’s extremely impractical.

Here are a few things to keep in mind:
a) Cap space is calculated daily.
b) You cannot accrue cap space once you’re in LTIR.
c) You cannot use accrued cap space while on LTIR.

With your theory, running a 20 or 21-man roster, the Leafs would have that $1.5 million open all season. It assumes there will be no injuries requiring a call-up (i.e. extra dollars on the cap) and also, that the Leafs will never need to use LTIR, including after the deadline (I.e. they would either have to stay cap compliant through multiple injuries or ice less than a 20-man roster).

This isn't talking about all the players that will be lost on waivers to maintain a 20-21 man roster.

It truly only works when a team can carry a 22 or 23-man roster and have a fair amount of cap space left over. This is almost never the case for competitive teams that add at the deadline.

 

[notbias]

Whoever convinced people that accruing cap space works needs a raise. No contenders actually rely on it because it’s extremely impractical.

Here are a few things to keep in mind:
a) Cap space is calculated daily.
b) You cannot accrue cap space once you’re in LTIR.
c) You cannot use accrued cap space while on LTIR.

You are advocating to use LTIR, not me, and yes, I know all these things.

It is why I said LTIR is dumb to use on a player with such a lower salary.

With your theory, running a 20 or 21-man roster, the Leafs would have that $1.5 million open all season. It assumes there will be no injuries requiring a call-up (i.e. extra dollars on the cap) and also, that the Leafs will never need to use LTIR, including after the deadline (I.e. they would either have to stay cap compliant through multiple injuries or ice less than a 20-man roster).

They'd have around $3 million with a 20 man roster.

They can be cap compliant at a 23 man roster right now.

This isn't talking about all the players that will be lost on waivers to maintain a 20-21 man roster.

It truly only works when a team can carry a 22 or 23-man roster and have a fair amount of cap space left over. This is almost never the case for competitive teams that add at the deadline.

Timmins and Murray are the only ones who I'd be worried about.

Most competitive teams are so close to the cap that accruing cap space is pointless.

 

[Evilhomer]

Sure, but when was the last time an injured UFA generated this much controversy if they were just out a few weeks to start the new season? I don't recall a case like this.

You also have to look at Hakanpaa signing for a fraction of what Dallas signed Ilya Lyubushkin to replace Hakanpaa for. 2 years, $3 million total vs 3 years at $9.75 million.

So unless there was some medical controversy which forced Dallas to move off, the Leafs wouldn't have gotten this player on a deep discount. And if the injury was a typical one, the league wouldn't be sniffing around. So from all of this, it doesn't seem like too much of a leap to think they got this guy to activate at some unusual time.

I'm not sure there is really all that much controversy. I think the guy probably just failed his physical and the Leafs are trying to see if there is a chance that he could ultimately pass it with some rehab.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There’s no functional difference between accruing cap to use later or just have an LTIR stash for the playoffs. You’re budgeting for late season and post season reinforcements by either building a cap buffer or pull a Vegas.

It's not pulling a Vegas. What they did is completely different.
And yes, there is a difference between accruing cap space and stashing somebody on LTIR for a season.

In the accrual path, you can add somebody with a bigger cap hit than the original space, and that addition can be aligned with the needs that you have identified throughout the season. A capable player that can benefit your team, that has been playing and has time to learn the system and gain chemistry with teammates.

Stashing somebody on LTIR locks you into that specific player, regardless of whether they represent a need for your team, or are ready. They will likely be worse than existing options and hurt your team, because they have sat around injured for 14 months and never played for you.

So unless there was some medical controversy which forced Dallas to move off, the Leafs wouldn't have gotten this player on a deep discount.

It's not a deep discount. It's literally the same cap hit he had on his previous contract when he was better, younger, and healthier.

 

[ULF_55]

It's not pulling a Vegas. What they did is completely different.
And yes, there is a difference between accruing cap space and stashing somebody on LTIR for a season.

True and yet not the entire story.

You can spend to the ceiling for the entire year, and by using LTIR at the Trade Deadline you can exceed the ceiling during the playoffs.

 

[Dekes For Days]

True and yet not the entire story.
You can spend to the ceiling for the entire year, and by using LTIR at the Trade Deadline you can exceed the ceiling during the playoffs.

That's a response and exploitation of an in-season occurrence, and not really relevant to Hakanpaa or the offseason pathways being discussed, but yes, that is something that some teams have had the opportunity to take advantage of.

 

[ULF_55]

That's a response and exploitation of an in-season situation, and not really relevant to Hakanpaa or the offseason pathways being discussed, but yes, that is something that some teams have had the opportunity to take advantage of.

And it is something the Leafs could do with Hakanpaa if he requires a lengthy rehab from his injury, or additional surgery.

That would be contrary to the Stars thoughts: "The Stars are hopeful that the veteran blueliner will be able to return to the lineup later in round 1."

So accruing is unlikely something the Leafs would do anyway.

 

[Dekes For Days]

And it is something the Leafs could do with Hakanpaa if he requires a lengthy rehab from his injury, or additional surgery.
That would be contrary to the Stars thoughts: "The Stars are hopeful that the veteran blueliner will be able to return to the lineup later in round 1."
So accruing is unlikely something the Leafs would do anyway.

No, if he's on LTIR for the season, that's something completely different. And not sure why you'd think we wouldn't want to accrue cap space.

 

[notbias]

And it is something the Leafs could do with Hakanpaa if he requires a lengthy rehab from his injury, or additional surgery.

That would be contrary to the Stars thoughts: "The Stars are hopeful that the veteran blueliner will be able to return to the lineup later in round 1."

So accruing is unlikely something the Leafs would do anyway.

For people suggesting sitting Hakanpaa until the playoffs... he is not Stone or Kucherov, he is a bottom-pairing D who is already not super mobile, do we expect him to come in and make a difference after being off for over a year with a knee injury?

 

[ULF_55]

No, if he's on LTIR for the season, that's something completely different. And not sure why you'd think we wouldn't want to accrue cap space.

Of course they'd love to accrue cap space ... is that something you've regularly seen with the Leafs?

 

[ULF_55]

For people suggesting sitting Hakanpaa until the playoffs... he is not Stone or Kucherov, he is a bottom-pairing D who is already not super mobile, do we expect him to come in and make a difference after being off for over a year with a knee injury?

Nope.

Did people have expectations he'd be anything more than a bottom pairing defender anyway?

Additionally, he wouldn't be sitting around doing nothing until the playoffs.

He'd be working out and skating, practicing, just like other players have done ... just not cleared to play.