Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose

[ACC1224]

Wasn't able to catch the game, just looking at the ice time it seems like Liljegren started taking over his spot with Muzzin as the game went on.

Was that the case? Hopefully it was and means Holl gets moved down (or out of) the lineup once Dermott is healthy.

It's been a long time coming.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

Marner, Sandin Mikheyev, Dermott, Spezza, Mrazak are 6 for the Leafs

Let's put this in perspective;
Marner - Top 10 forward in the League Offensively
Sandin - no ranking that we could even consider ...2nd pair D
Dermott - 3rd pair D easily replaced
Mikheyev - maybe solid 3rd liner
Spezza - 4th liner and faceoff specialist
Mrazek - no factor in this game at all

Kucherov - top 3 player in the league and a former Hart Trophy winner
Point - top 10 forward in the league offensively
Cirelli - top 5 defensive forward in the league
Cernak - top 10 defense shutdown in the league 2nd pair D

Do you still think Toronto was more handcuffed than Tampa? And Keefe had last change. Tampa had 5 rookies in their lineup and Nash played his first game after being claimed off waivers.

Let's face it, Toronto has the most giveaways in the league (304), Tampa (127), Muzzin has the most, Reilly 8th in the league Tavares13th in the league. When you turnover the puck that much you better have some great Defenceman and a solid goalie to cover those mistakes. Clearly a problem that was very apparent last night. You can give up shots, but odd man rushes, clear scoring chances are hard to cover night in and out. Tampa played a smart away game, yes they gave up shots, but none were as dangerous as the ones given up by Toronto.
Leafs have to clean up their act, or history repeats itself.

 

[Mess]

No, we always knew.

Agreed and some of those flaws are simply becoming more glaring.

The last week or so Leafs defensive play is starting to slip and show signs of vulnerability and struggles.

 

[VanW27]

Its tough when the only defensive pairing you can rely on is Rielly - Brodie. Really sloppy game from the team in their own end and even sloppier in the neutral zone.

Goal 1 against - Muzzin turns it over at the offensive blueline. Tampa heads back the other way and for the most part it's 3 on 3, but both Holl and Muzzin go to the same guy and Kerfoot is a step or 2 behind the play.

Goal 2 against - Muzzin tries to clear it. Kase sticks his hand out and knocks the puck down. Puck falls to 91 at the top of the circle and he blasts it home.

Goal 3 against - Holl carries it to the blue line and gives a 2 foot pass to Nylander. He tries to send it to a changing Muzzin. Muzzin doesn't expect it and it gets turned over at the red line and it goes back 3 on 2 and its off Nylander's stick.

Goal 4 against - Rielly tries to reverse the puck along the boards. Brodie overskates it, Stamkos centres it to Raddysh for a nice shot.

Goal 5 against - Empty net.

For the most part, the Leafs pride themselves on the transition game with an active defenseman often joining the rush and then activating in the offensive zone. For a majority of the start of the game, the Leafs were pushing play and looked like the better team. When they got sloppy and away from there strengths of moving it up the ice quickly, they got scored on.

The pair of Muzzin - Holl is not working. I'm not sure if it's the defensive coach dictating that they should stay together or its Keefe, but they have to circle the first 3 goals and say, if this is your shutdown pair, what are they shutting down?

Leafs as a team have given up 48 ESGA, Muzzin has been on the ice for 27 of them - That's 56%

The shut down pair isn't shutting anyone down, quite the opposite actually.

 

[Mess]

Do you still think Toronto was more handcuffed than Tampa? And Keefe had last change. .

Even with Kucherov and Point out for TB, it was Stamkos that stepped up and provided a goal and 3 assists for the win, which matched the output of Tavares, Nylander and Matthews combined.

Playing his hometown team seems to bring out the best in him, regardless who he has surrounding him.

That was the TSN turning point in this one.

 

[Judas Tavares]

It was one of those, we played well enough to win and out-chanced them type of games. But the chances they did get were gifts and they took full advantage. Team seems a bit tired, as does Campbell, but this was expected as his sv% was unsustainable. As long as Mrazek is fine, I'd like to see a 60/40 - Campbell/Mrazek split the rest of the way, maybe even 50/50 just so that Campbell is fresh later on.

 

[zeke]

Really a game we should have won.

Too many glaring mistakes. Which sucks because that really hasn't been a problem much this year.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

Really a game we should have won.

Too many glaring mistakes. Which sucks because that really hasn't been a problem much this year.

We should have won.....too many glaring mistakes.

These statements contradict each other. do you really think leafs should have won if they had too many glaring mistakes?

 

[ACC1224]

We should have won.....too many glaring mistakes.

These statements contradict each other. do you really think leafs should have won if they had too many glaring mistakes?

The Leafs don't actually ever lose a game. Keep up.

 

[zeke]

We should have won.....too many glaring mistakes.

These statements contradict each other. do you really think leafs should have won if they had too many glaring mistakes?

Yeah they should have won. Even with the glaring mistakes we had the much better of the play and chances.

But

A) outplaying TB without their 1st line is expected for this leafs team, not good enough by itself. And

B) you can't be surprised when Vasi is the better goalie on the night.

 

[therealkoho]

Frustrating game. Blame that on Muzzin-Holl. I don't want to see that disaster again. Played well enough to win but Jack had a bad game..
Timothy welcome to the top 4

3rd game in a row where Muzzin served up a pizza on his first shift, and Holl gets hung out to dry.

I'm not excusing Holl's play because he had some solid gaffes of his own, but when your partner is constantly and consistently coughing up pucks or putting passes into your skates, or not getting into position as a safety valve causing you to either eat the puck and get blasted or making a blind panic clear that more often than not ends up as a good scoring chance.

Towards Gardiners final seasons he was doing all the things Muzzin is doing now, and like Muzzin the partner whomever it was at the time was taking heat that was mostly undeserved.

I have no explanation on why these things happen, or why an exemplary and solid guy has his game suddenly turn into lime jello, no substance no taste and no real value to anything it accompanies. Muzzin was a solid 3 and Holl was filling in as a competent 4, his job was to support whatever Muzz did, not to be the leader of the pair.

If Muzzin is on his game, it makes Holls job a whole lot more simple. It also makes the pairing a lot more effective.

Remember when somebody on here just assumed that Matty was yelling at Holl on the bench after a GA, I'm thinking that maybe he was giving Muzz the "wake up call" in game, just like Marner gave it to him during practice last week. I've never heard of Mitch getting abusive with any teammates, and if anything takes responsibility for what happens when his line is on, good or bad.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Stammer was da boss man on da ice .. clearly best player, with Vasi, by far on either team .. and usually when you have best men you win .. but our Leafs played well and I thought controlled large portions of that game .. but big big issue is why is Holl playing anymore on our defense??????????????????????? yes he has a contract but we can't play him anymore .. he is completely done now .. not even on 3rd pairing .. needs to be either 7th man on roster (not playing) or back to Marlies to finish out his career .. he is completely shot now that he has found out nobody in league wants him .. it will only get much worse from here on in .. glad Holl got his $$$ but that's it shoot da dead horse now .. sad really but like I have been saying for 2 years he only looked decent cause he played with an NHL #2 man .. now NHL #2 man is aging and Holl's problems are magnified and everyone can see even da analytics/stats guys (don't worry analytics are still in novel development stages so every fan could have made that error) .. Soup looked a little tired too .. need a backup at cheaper AAV who can play some NHL minutes

 

[therealkoho]

Just admit it. Marner us a very good player at 6m$ per.
At 10.5m$ he is a liability. He is not a loved team mate, he has talent but shooting a puck is not one of his better talents, he disappears in the spring and try playing the game often like a peewee.
Yes, he has great nights, but more bad nights.

Not a "loved teammate" that's quite the imagination you got going there sunshine!

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Really a game we should have won.

Too many glaring mistakes. Which sucks because that really hasn't been a problem much this year.

The Leafs don't actually ever lose a game. Keep up.

Ya, its usually bad referring, injuries, back to backs, and bad goaltending/soft goals. Those are the standby excuses (I'm sure I missed a few).

 

[Nineteen67]

Too bad some of you didn’t get to see the real Tampa. They were rather tame.

 

[theTTC]

The last week or so Leafs defensive play is starting to slip and show signs of vulnerability and struggles.

Exactly coincident is the re-emergence of no-hitter games. Lazy fly-bys and reluctance to engage. Last night I can recall only Clifford, Matthews, Rubins finishing a few checks with any authority. And the stick flailing by the D in our own zone, just embarrassing.

What alarms me is a few weeks ago the team finally adopted a new persona that included physical compete and controlled violence. Now? Not so much and fading fast.

 

[zeke]

Ya, its usually bad referring, injuries, back to backs, and bad goaltending/soft goals. Those are the standby excuses (I'm sure I missed a few).

not sure why you're quoting me when I placed the blame clearly on "too many glaring mistakes" ?

 

[Curt]

Do you know the quality of player that is paid 6 mill per year?

At least be realistic. Marner should be paid between 8.5-9.5 mill and no one is going to argue that he is worth his contract. But my God the hyperbole to tear him down.

Lol at someone with 0 goals in last 19 playoff games deserving anywhere close to that money.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Should have been a routine win TBH. Score 3 goals against Vasy, you gotta get at least a point.

Muzzin was f***ing brutal. Essentially wiped away 10 mins of dominant hockey to start the game with one of the worst f***ing turnovers I've seen all year. So on brand for him this year unfortunately.

Follow that up with another set of bad turnovers on goals 2-4 and that's pretty well the game handed to TB.

It's unfortunate to play well enough to win against a team like TB, only to have these very avoidable mistakes cost us the game. There wasn't 1 goal that TB earned TBH. Unforced errors on every goal. It's just not acceptable. We gave them that win, no question about it.

Losing 3 of the last 4 in very similar fashion, and realistically we've gotten away from our game since the Colorado game. Not sure what to say, but they need to fix this ASAP. This upcoming west coast swing after CHI is not an easy swing at this point. Especially if VAN finds a way to keep rolling with Brucey Budreau

Gotta wake up

 

[Superstar]

Let's put this in perspective;
Marner - Top 10 forward in the League Offensively
Sandin - no ranking that we could even consider ...2nd pair D
Dermott - 3rd pair D easily replaced
Mikheyev - maybe solid 3rd liner
Spezza - 4th liner and faceoff specialist
Mrazek - no factor in this game at all

Kucherov - top 3 player in the league and a former Hart Trophy winner
Point - top 10 forward in the league offensively
Cirelli - top 5 defensive forward in the league
Cernak - top 10 defense shutdown in the league 2nd pair D

Do you still think Toronto was more handcuffed than Tampa? And Keefe had last change. Tampa had 5 rookies in their lineup and Nash played his first game after being claimed off waivers.

Let's face it, Toronto has the most giveaways in the league (304), Tampa (127), Muzzin has the most, Reilly 8th in the league Tavares13th in the league. When you turnover the puck that much you better have some great Defenceman and a solid goalie to cover those mistakes. Clearly a problem that was very apparent last night. You can give up shots, but odd man rushes, clear scoring chances are hard to cover night in and out. Tampa played a smart away game, yes they gave up shots, but none were as dangerous as the ones given up by Toronto.
Leafs have to clean up their act, or history repeats itself.

Good defense and goaltending could only limit bad turnovers so much...teams are just too good on average...look what bad turnovers cost the Leafs in game 5 and 6 against the Habs last year. If the Leafs want to be a great team and go far in the playoffs, they need to buckle down and be consistent with playing sound hockey on the defensive side also, not just try to out-skill and out-score their mistakes. There are guys on this team that don't buy in completely, and try to do too much with their limited gifts...guys like Holl.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

At least Muzzin played last night.
I really don't get why the off topic trolling is encouraged here.

I agree some knee caps have to be broken and whips need to be cracked.

 

[ACC1224]

I agree some knee caps have to be broken and whips need to be cracked.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

Yeah they should have won. Even with the glaring mistakes we had the much better of the play and chances.

But

A) outplaying TB without their 1st line is expected for this leafs team, not good enough by itself. And

B) you can't be surprised when Vasi is the better goalie on the night.

We just lying to ourselves if we keep saying 'they should have won', as an excuse that we are better, but it's a game that you must be disciplined and patient, Leafs were not. It's not about the goals not scored, it's about the goals against and the mistakes that go into those goals. They appeared in the playoffs last year, and will continue to do so unless they address it.

 

[zeke]

We just lying to ourselves if we keep saying 'they should have won', as an excuse that we are better, but it's a game that you must be disciplined and patient, Leafs were not. It's not about the goals not scored, it's about the goals against and the mistakes that go into those goals. They appeared in the playoffs last year, and will continue to do so unless they address it.

I don't think describing the game accurately is lying to ourselves.

 

[therealkoho]

I do not dislike Marner, but his failure to play at 10.5m$ level hurts this team and all I want to do is win.
Pay equal to Nylander is closer to value. When he is allowed by the other team to play like he is the best player in a peewee league he is awesome. Unfortunately good teams play like men,

posted like a man, I suppose?

just a suggestion but howsabout you snap your fingers make his contract go away and conjur up a new one for 7.1m, and have him finish 3rd 4th or 5th in team scoring or maybe just 30 or so points under his usual pace?