Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose- due for one of these but Jack man

[ACC1224]

What's with Nylander? Brutal on the 2nd goal, takes a lazy penalty which leads to the 3rd goal and then weak back check on the 4th goal. Hopefully that's it.

(Only caught the first last night, watching the end now Calgary just made it 4-1)

 

[hoglund]

You watched the game last night, correct? Not sure how you can conflate over-reacting with how we were physically dominated last night. No one is saying "we need toughness", we are saying we need players who respond in those situations. Not face punchers, but guys who will hit, cross check, and get feisty in retaliation. Gone are the days of guys dropping gloves, and no one does in the playoffs anyways.

If you think Campbell was the only concerning thing last night, I'm not sure you realize what playoff hockey is like.

Maybe we shouldn't have let Kadri go.

 

[thusk]

Canes and Flames have taken 3 of 4 points against us. Our only wins have come in skills competitions where everybody know Leafs "excel".

The playoffs are a different beast. Dubas has work to do in the next 5+ weeks. If I were him, I'd also update my resume, just in case.

But toronto didnt lose that game because of lack of whatever, they loose because campbell wasn't played well and Markstrom was hot. If it was campbell of the beggining of the season, toronto would have won this game.

The good news, we are only game 44, so 38 games left to campbell to find his game back.

 

[Magic Man]

Maybe we shouldn't have let Kadri go.

I never wanted him to leave, I was glad he blocked the trade to Calgary. I always thought he had Brad Marchand like potential even after he left, he's looking pretty good right now.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Our second pair also plays like a third pairing. Muzzin needs to go in the offseason with both Mrazek and Campbell. I'd like to see jt waive as well but not gonna happen.

People who suggest things that will never happen for good reasons aren’t helpful.

what goalies are you acquiring as replacements ?

 

[ToneDog]

What's with Nylander? Brutal on the 2nd goal, takes a lazy penalty which leads to the 3rd goal and then weak back check on the 4th goal. Hopefully that's it.

(Only caught the first last night, watching the end now Calgary just made it 4-1)

Spoiler alert, Leafs do not rally in the 3rd to win it.

 

[VanW27]

Getting pushed around or the other team being more physical doesn't inherently make that the reason the team lost. That is just silly lol. We had two players make absolutely brain dead turnovers in overtimes that we were completely carrying the play in. Our two best players couldn't find the back of the net including Matthews hitting like 6 posts. We didn't lose because they hit us and we ran away. It is just a lazy false narrative at this point.

We could have easily won both of those series, but that doesn't change the fact both teams did the same thing to us and won.

Be physical, protect the middle, wait for stupid turnovers for easy goals. They needed great goaltending and some luck to win for sure but they were also both vastly inferior teams in terms of skill. When teams protect the middle we are far too content to control the puck on the outside and win the puck possession battle while generating very few chances in tight. Combined with our penchant to make horrifyingly bad defensive miscues and give up soft goals, bad teams know how to beat us. If a good team plays us like that (eg. Tampa or Florida) we'll get steamrolled unless we get our act together and are willing to fight for the middle of the ice.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I want to know what Leafs games some of you have been watching if you think the lack of Nick Ritchie and Kyle Clifford was the problem last night. Wow, if only we had those useless plugs to take some stupid penalty and do nothing useful for 8 whole minutes per game, then... ???

Did you watch Canes game? Guess why we won that one? Because Wayner stopped Canes from running around and over each of our guys with 3 heavy hard fisted shots to skull. After da fight guess what Canes stopped it. and Leafs soft core skilled guys started to play again. Hockey has been a game of intimidation for a hundred years. And when you have da bull on da bench game is different. Now Wayner is not enough against Flames but Wayner and Ritchie and that game plays different then it did.

 

[Menzinger]

We over-analyze these mid-season games way too much.

One goalie played amazing; the other was rubbish. The score reflected that.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I never stated that was the sole reason we lost. It was a contributing factor though. People turnover pucks because they are afraid of getting hit to make a play. If you think physicality doesn't matter, I'm not sure this is a conversation worth having.

Does Tampa get tossed around? Boston? Washington? Name me a Cup winner who didn't have some serious physical elements in their game.

Neither turnover was the player being pressured physically though? They just both made absolutely brain dead mistakes at the worst possible time and the puck ended up in the back of our net. Physicality had absolutely nothing to do with it. Like I said it is a lazy and false narrative that just distracts from the actual issues that have prevented this team from advancing in the playoffs.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

We over-analyze these mid-season games way too much.

The good teams like Tampa don’t care that’s for sure

 

[ToneDog]

Did you watch Canes game? Guess why we won that one? Because Wayner stopped Canes from running around and over each of our guys with 3 heavy hard fisted shots to skull. After da fight guess what Canes stopped it. and Leafs soft core skilled guys started to play again. Hockey has been a game of intimidation for a hundred years. And when you have da bull on da bench game is different. Now Wayner is not enough against Flames but Wayner and Ritchie and that game plays different then it did.

Some of these young fans just don't get it. Hell our GM didn't until Shanny said we needed to be tougher to play against. Dubas has tried but failed miserably with Foligno, Ritchie, Gabriel and Clifford and did not replace Bogo's grit, size and toughness.

Truth is, this team today is softer than it was a year ago.

Dubas has to hope Ritchie can wake up and show up in the playoffs. Simmonds started well in last year's playoffs but all but disappeared by the end.

 

[hockeyes]

This is the same team with the same problems as it has been for a few years now. This year was always going to be a repeat with no material changes. The reality is you can't have all your top guys allergic to getting angry and punishing teams. "Killer instinct" and "toughness" are all the same arguments framed differently. You can afford to have a smaller skilled guy like Marner avoiding the rough stuff, and you probably want that, but you can't have Matthews, Tavares and Nylander allowing teams to run them and cross check them from behind into the boards without any retaliation. That retaliation needs to come from them and turning the other cheek is just not working. When was the last time Matthews got angry and retaliated over anything? Weber a few years ago? I am pretty sure he has been cross checked in the back about ten thousand times since then.

 

[Zybalto]

Considering thats only our 9th loss since October 26th (tied for fewest in the league) and came against another good team in their barn and we outshot them 48-26, you would think this team could be given some leeway but there I'm convinced there are some fans that are just too invested in hate-watching the team.

Fun fact about Calgary is that they actually had the best shot differential in the league coming into last night's game, both 5v5 and overall. No team in the league has outshot them that badly...by far (looking at the sheer scope of the numbers)... all season.

Take the positives from the game and move on to the next one.

Hope Kase can come back soon.

 

[mclaren55]

Neither turnover was the player being pressured physically though? They just both made absolutely brain dead mistakes at the worst possible time and the puck ended up in the back of our net. Physicality had absolutely nothing to do with it. Like I said it is a lazy and false narrative that just distracts from the actual issues that have prevented this team from advancing in the playoffs.

So in your opinion, it was those brain dead mistakes that led to our failure? Just those two, not the multiple delay of game penalties, or the blatant disrespect and manhandling of our players, etc?

To say it is a false narrative is completely ignoring the facts, which are viewable on youtube if you care to look at the highlight packs. We were outhit every single game of that series. That takes a physical toll on players, regardless of whether or not you think it does. Look at the games we ended up losing, you don't think fatigue played a factor? We lost games 5-7, but in your opinion it was only due to two crappy giveaways?

 

[mclaren55]

Considering thats only our 9th loss since October 26th (tied for fewest in the league) and came against another good team in their barn and we outshot them 48-26, you would think this team could be given some leeway but there I'm convinced there are some fans that are just too invested in hate-watching the team.

Fun fact about Calgary is that they actually had the best shot differential in the league coming into last night's game, both 5v5 and overall. No team in the league has outshot them that badly...by far (looking at the sheer scope of the numbers)... all season.

Take the positives from the game and move on to the next one.

Hope Kase can come back soon.

People are concerned because it had a playoff feel to it, and we were once again dominated. Outshooting opponents doesn't provide granularity as to where those shots were taken. As I stated before, in the Bozak/Kessle era, we routinely outshot opponents and lost. We got bullied and lost last night, and it's giving fans flashbacks to our post season loses.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

So in your opinion, it was those brain dead mistakes that led to our failure? Just those two, not the multiple delay of game penalties, or the blatant disrespect and manhandling of our players, etc?

To say it is a false narrative is completely ignoring the facts, which are viewable on youtube if you care to look at the highlight packs. We were outhit every single game of that series. That takes a physical toll on players, regardless of whether or not you think it does. Look at the games we ended up losing, you don't think fatigue played a factor? We lost games 5-7, but in your opinion it was only due to two crappy giveaways?

Yes I do think 2 giveaways that literally directly lead to game winning goals share the bulk of the blame for our lose last season. Again though, you are making a false equivalency. You look at the hit counter see that we got out hit and lost the game and boom we lost because we got out hit. We gave up 1 shot in OT of game 6...completely skating them out of the rink, had the puck the entire time(hard to hit with the puck on your stick). One egregious turnover and we lose. One of Matthews 6 post shots goes post and in and we edge them out then nobody is talking about how we got physically dominated by the Habs. It was a combination of brutal luck and certain players just straight up choking at the worst possible time.

 

[Havoc]

We had Muzz coming back from a concky, Simmonds out of the lineup, Ritchie out of the lineup, and only Bunting left to fend off Tkachuk, Lucic, Zadorov and more...They did what all good teams do, they took advantage of it.

You lost me here. Muzzin no longer plays as nasty as before. His body won't hold up if we rely on him for anti-soft. Sorry but teams aren't scared of Simmonds at this point of his career. He's another one who can enforce in spurts and then needs some low event games to recover. It confuses me how nobody else sees this. Teams being worried about Simmonds coming at them is probably one of the biggest myths on this board. Ritchie never plays so it's irrelevant to mention him. Bunting is more of a pest who gets into the dirty areas for us and draws a lot of penalties and scores goals greasing it up, but he's not a deterrent.

Flames only average 3 more hits per game than us but benefited greatly having some "truculence" in their lineup last night. Leafs don't need an identity or roster over haul to increase their hits per game or anything like that. They just need 1-2 guys who actually make teams keep their head up when on the ice, game in and game out. Preferably under the age of 30. We have 3 potential roster spots to do this with: Simmonds, Spezza and Kase (not by choice). I haven't scanned the league to see options, but hopefully there's some guys we can look into.

The more people deny this, the worse we will be if management agrees with them. Which they fortunately don't, since they ranked Foligno over Hall on their priority list last season.


Did anyone catch Engvall after Rielly jumped Zadorov? He just stood there and watched with his hands lightly holding back a Flame player, made himself a peace maker. Wanted nothing to do with the violence. The only reason he ended up in the pileup is because a Flame grabbed him from behind and dragged him down. Then he just accepts it. Doesn't even try to break free. I'm not calling out Engvall, he's been playing well, but it does show an area we lack in. That's Morgan Rielly, your no.1 D and biggest bro on the team, jumping someone 6'5. How do you not get fired up and start smashing everyone with him.

 

[ACC1224]

Spoiler alert, Leafs do not rally in the 3rd to win it.

I had a feeling

 

[ShaneFalco]

Did anyone catch Engvall after Rielly jumped Zadorov? He just stood there and watched with his hands lightly holding back a Flame player, made himself a peace maker. Wanted nothing to do with the violence. The only reason he ended up in the pileup is because a Flame grabbed him from behind and dragged him down. Then he just accepts it. Doesn't even try to break free. I'm not calling out Engvall, he's been playing well, but it does show an area we lack in. That's Morgan Rielly, your no.1 D and biggest bro on the team, jumping someone 6'5. How do you not get fired up and start smashing everyone with him.

This has been a problem for years now. JT can get cross-checked, AM man-handled and noone does anything about it. Babcock's response to it was "our power-play is our toughness"

 

[mclaren55]

Yes I do think 2 giveaways that literally directly lead to game winning goals share the bulk of the blame for our lose last season. Again though, you are making a false equivalency. You look at the hit counter see that we got out hit and lost the game and boom we lost because we got out hit. We gave up 1 shot in OT of game 6...completely skating them out of the rink, had the puck the entire time(hard to hit with the puck on your stick). One egregious turnover and we lose. One of Matthews 6 post shots goes post and in and we edge them out then nobody is talking about how we got physically dominated by the Habs. It was a combination of brutal luck and certain players just straight up choking at the worst possible time.

Ok, so we have had all of these first round exits over the past 6 seasons due to being "unlucky" or having insufficient goal tending. That is your view, and I have a different one. I didn't just look at the hit counter, I watched the damn games, all of our playoff games, for the last 30 years. This era (Matthews) is the softest roster we have had heading into post season play in a very long time. I do believe that is a key contributing factor, just as much as our streaky goal tending and "luck".

No false equivalency, just a myriad of factors leading to perpetually underperforming in the playoffs.

I'm agreeing with you for the record, that it was only a single factor, as much so as our two unlucky turnovers were single factors in particular losses.

 

[Mess]

We over-analyze these mid-season games way too much.

One goalie played amazing; the other was rubbish. The score reflected that.

For the first 2-3 months Campbell was playing at a Markstrom like level looking for a potential similar contract.

Now we saw them head to head, and there was a clear difference with Campbell only facing 26 shots and Markstrom 48.

We might be witnessing the difference between 1A tandem goalie and a true #1 here when it comes to expectations.

 

[Zybalto]

People are concerned because it had a playoff feel to it, and we were once again dominated. Outshooting opponents doesn't provide granularity as to where those shots were taken. As I stated before, in the Bozak/Kessle era, we routinely outshot opponents and lost. We got bullied and lost last night, and it's giving fans flashbacks to our post season loses.

...and the Tampa, Boston, Colorado and most recently Carolina games also had playoff feels to them and we won the majority of the games?

Expected Goals differential is literally the go-to stat when measuring the quality of chances and the Leafs are first in the league this season....and they were the better team last night as well.

The top 5 teams in hits this season are Ottawa, Boston, Montreal, NYI and Nashville. Theres such thing as effective physicality very few teams do it right. Most of the more physical teams are crap chasing the more skilled players around as they lose games.

I think goaltending and puck luck was a far bigger factor last night than physical play. When you consider the edge in PP time the Flames had (including 5 on 3), the Leafs stats look even better. I think the Flames are celebrating a victory at home but I wouldnt expect Sutter to be all that cheery towards his players overall effort as they were outworked most of the night.

 

[ACC1224]

Did you watch Canes game? Guess why we won that one? Because Wayner stopped Canes from running around and over each of our guys with 3 heavy hard fisted shots to skull. After da fight guess what Canes stopped it. and Leafs soft core skilled guys started to play again. Hockey has been a game of intimidation for a hundred years. And when you have da bull on da bench game is different. Now Wayner is not enough against Flames but Wayner and Ritchie and that game plays different then it did.

Those who understand get this, those who don't never will.

Campbell wasn't very good but Keefe gets some blame here, needed some beef in the lineup vs a team like the Flames.

 

[fahad203]

This has been a problem for years now. JT can get cross-checked, AM man-handled and noone does anything about it. Babcock's response to it was "our power-play is our toughness"

This comes back to coaching. Coaches set the tone how and what kind of team we want to be

Sutter is an old school player, hence they have an old school feel to their team. Forecheck, hit and play the game old way

Keefe is too soft. He can call his team out for being soft, but he himself is soft. His style is soft. Everything about this team screams we are soft and fragile

Simmonds is not the answer. If Simmonds is the answer for anything in 2022, you don't have a good team

If Simmonds was the answer, he would have done something last year against the Habs. Dude sucks and sucked. He has played better but he still sucks
Josh Anderson made him his little #(#*#. Weber didn't care about Simmonds beacuse nobody does