Pre-Game Talk: Leafs @ Islanders, Feb 27 7 PM

[Hurt]

That is the one that should resonate the greatest among the Leafs from this Olympic event.

Hopefully the team was paying attention and watching. Carlyle certainly appears to have.

That was probably one of the highest quality of defensive play we will see in this generation. Leafs can learn a thing or two.

 

[ShaneFalco]

God I hope McLaren hits the waiver wire.

Who will take his 1 minute and 35 second ice time

 

[mcleex]

I never wanna wish injury on anyone, but thank God Tavares got injured when he did. Perfect time to play the Islanders. That's a sure 1 maybe 2 GA you can remove in this game, no Moulson means another 1 or 2 GA removed.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

The Boston Bruins win and trap their way to NHL success.

"Defense wins Championships".

So it comes down to wanting success or wanting entertainment. To me a 1-0 win is far better than a 5-4 loss.

When the Leafs were once most successful they defended their way towards the Cup in 1993-94, behind Pat Burns defense first system.

Chicago wins TWICE, and don't trap their way to NHL success.
Same with Pittsburgh.
Same with Detroit.
Same with Carolina.
Same with Tampa Bay.
Same with Anaheim.

"Offense wins championships"

So it comes down to if you want success, or if you want success AND entertainment. To me, a 1-0 win means just as much as a 5-4 win.

See, I can do it too!

I was also unaware that the Leafs had 6 of the best defenders in the world, all on one team, or that the NHL changed to bigger ice. But yeah, team Canada quality is totally a fair expectation.

 

[Mess]

Chicago wins TWICE, and don't trap their way to NHL success.
Same with Pittsburgh.
Same with Detroit.
Same with Carolina.
Same with Tampa Bay.
Same with Anaheim.

"Offense wins championships"

So it comes down to if you want success, or if you want success AND entertainment. To me, a 1-0 win means just as much as a 5-4 win.

See, I can do it too!

I was also unaware that the Leafs had 6 of the best defenders in the world, all on one team, or that the NHL changed to bigger ice. But yeah, team Canada quality is totally a fair expectation.

Did you catch Carlyle's comments today?

Carlyle says he wants his players to look at how Canada won in Sochi and realize that "defence does win."

So I'm glad the coach and I are on the same page.. If you don't give up any goals you can't lose, but if you give up 4 then you need 5 to win.

 

[TOG26]

Did you catch Carlyle's comments today?



So I'm glad the coach and I are on the same page.. If you don't give up any goals you can't lose, but if you give up 4 then you need 5 to win.

If you score 5 goals, you can give up 4 and still win. A win is a win, no matter how you get there. Our team is built for offense.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

Did you catch Carlyle's comments today?

Yes, I did. How about responding to the post instead of deflecting to somebody else's opinion.

It's a lot easier for somebody who won a cup with Pronger, Niedermeyer and Beauchemin to say that, and I suspect it was said as a motivating tool.

It doesn't mean it is the only way, or even the best way.

"Defence does win" does NOT mean that offense doesn't.

 

[Mess]

Yes, I did. How about responding to the post instead of deflecting to somebody else's opinion.

It's a lot easier for somebody who won a cup with Pronger, Niedermeyer and Beauchemin to say that, and I suspect it was said as a motivating tool.

It doesn't mean it is the only way, or even the best way.

"Defence does win" does NOT mean that offense doesn't.

The opinion is from the Leafs coach and its based on a few hours ago.

Not sure how backing up ones own opinion with that of the Leafs coach is deflecting anything other than perhaps deflecting your attention to his beliefs.. Since he is the one behind the Leafs bench I expect him to have an impact on how the Leafs play and their system.

Leafs are one of the weaker defensive teams in the league (5th last in goals against) so getting better defensively should be a priority. IMO

 

[yakfish]

Defense wins games. Offense wins games. Goaltending wins games. Coaching wins games. The most complete teams win cups!

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

Chicago wins TWICE, and don't trap their way to NHL success.
Same with Pittsburgh.
Same with Detroit.
Same with Carolina.
Same with Tampa Bay.
Same with Anaheim.

"Offense wins championships"

Nobody 'traps their way to NHL success', but those Cup winners were hardly run-and-gun teams that simply outscored their defensive woes either. Anaheim in particular won playing a very defense-first, hard-nosed style, and guess who coached them to that success?

 

[Hurt]

Chicago wins TWICE, and don't trap their way to NHL success.
Same with Pittsburgh.
Same with Detroit.
Same with Carolina.
Same with Tampa Bay.
Same with Anaheim.

Pittsburgh with two of the best players in the NHL and a third liner who was a Selke candidate.

Detroit with the best Defenseman of our generation, 2 of the best 2 way players in the game and a Kris Draper along with a coach who'd go on to win 2 gold medals.

Carolina with a Selke winner for a Captain and a backup goalie who stood on his head in a season where goal scoring was off the charts.

I could do Chicago, Tampa Bay and Anaheim but I don't feel I need to. If you think that these teams were only winning games because they scored a lot of goals, you don't understand why these teams won.

 

[Daisy Jane]

(sigh).

I think we can all agree that the Leafs are - whatever they want to call it - a run and gun team. Carlyle has never said he wants to limit the offense - he wants the team to learn how to play better defensive hockey. He's said it flat out: we aren't good when we stop skating. (vs other teams, like NJ etc, who can stop and start).


so ALL Carlyle is saying is that he wants the Leafs to play better defensive hockey and they can win that way - because with the mindset of the team, it's very much "don't worry, we can outscore this problem, and Bernie is there." you can be both Defensively/Offensively minded at the same time and still win championships. it's not ONE or the OTHER.

 

[false bobo]

I wish they'd make Kulemin at centre a long-term experiment. He was playing unreal there with Raymond and Bodie. So many smart defensive plays up the middle and set-ups. Also did wonders on the break out because he could dictate the centre of the ice while in the defensive zone.

I agree. But who takes the wing?

 

[ldnk]

Pittsburgh with two of the best players in the NHL and a third liner who was a Selke candidate.

Detroit with the best Defenseman of our generation, 2 of the best 2 way players in the game and a Kris Draper along with a coach who'd go on to win 2 gold medals.

Carolina with a Selke winner for a Captain and a backup goalie who stood on his head in a season where goal scoring was off the charts.

I could do Chicago, Tampa Bay and Anaheim but I don't feel I need to. If you think that these teams were only winning games because they scored a lot of goals, you don't understand why these teams won.

And if the Leafs play Colton Orr on the 1st line they are going to struggle to score. You have to play your team with the best model to win games. Playing defense like Canada did is great...when your defense has Weber, Doughty, Vlasic, Hamhuis, Keith, Pietrangelo, and Bouwmeester.

It's also a bit of a misnomer that Team Canada won with defense. They won by controlling the puck the entire game and outright dominating their opposition. EVERYTHING about Carlyle suggests that he doesn't give a crap about puck possession because the numbers in Anaheim don't suggest it, and they have never suggested it in his time with the Leafs.

Canada carried the puck through the neutral zone all the time. That' something that Carlyle doesn't like. He wants dump ins and clearing the puck along the boards.

Saying the Leafs need to play like Team Canada is like saying every goalie should play like the Latvian goalie Gudlevski. The only team that can play like Team Canada, is an all-star team that was head and shoulders better than every other team.

And Team Canada sure as hell wasn't playing Colton Orr/Frazer McLaren over guys who provide similar physicality but actually contribute on the score-sheet.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

The opinion is from the Leafs coach and its based on a few hours ago.

Not sure how backing up ones own opinion with that of the Leafs coach is deflecting anything other than perhaps deflecting your attention to his beliefs.. Since he is the one behind the Leafs bench I expect him to have an impact on how the Leafs play and their system.

Leafs are one of the weaker defensive teams in the league (5th last in goals against) so getting better defensively should be a priority. IMO

Your apparent opinion does not equal what the coach said. You are stretching what he said to include your opinion.

It is obvious that the Leafs need to be better defensively than what they have been this year, in order to be a cup contender.

It is not obvious that defense has to be our strong suit to win, or that we had to reach contender status this year, or that we need new personnel to accomplish that level of defense. It's not even obvious we need a different system.

What is obvious is that the roles most responsible for defense this year have either been rookies, inexperienced and playing in higher roles, or injured, leaving room for more rookies, AHLers, and inexperienced personnel and pushing defensive players into offensive roles, diminishing their defensive impact.

In fact, the only player who does not fall into one of these categories, is Phaneuf (to a lesser extent, gunnarsson). And surprise surprise, Phaneuf (and to a lesser extent gunnarsson) has been a rock defensively this year.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

Defense wins games. Offense wins games. Goaltending wins games. Coaching wins games. The most complete teams win cups!

Couldn't have said it better myself, except maybe to add a 5th category, luck.

 

[The Podium]

Couldn't have said it better myself, except maybe to add a 5th category, luck.

6th, effort

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

Nobody 'traps their way to NHL success', but those Cup winners were hardly run-and-gun teams that simply outscored their defensive woes either. Anaheim in particular won playing a very defense-first, hard-nosed style, and guess who coached them to that success?

Pittsburgh with two of the best players in the NHL and a third liner who was a Selke candidate.

Detroit with the best Defenseman of our generation, 2 of the best 2 way players in the game and a Kris Draper along with a coach who'd go on to win 2 gold medals.

Carolina with a Selke winner for a Captain and a backup goalie who stood on his head in a season where goal scoring was off the charts.

I could do Chicago, Tampa Bay and Anaheim but I don't feel I need to. If you think that these teams were only winning games because they scored a lot of goals, you don't understand why these teams won.

And where exactly did I say that they won ONLY because of scoring a bunch of goals?

I simply stated that they won while NOT trapping and playing all-defense, and that offense was a HUGE, if not the biggest reason those teams won.

Anaheim I guess one could make a case for, though they were led by 2 of the top-3 defensemen in the game, and another rock in Beauchemin who was a #2 guy in his own right. However, they also had a dynamite offense, and relied heavily on physically bashing opponents into submission.

In fact, even LA looked terrible and was floundering out of a playoff spot until they went out to get OFFENSE at the trade deadline.

Fact is, you need a good mix of all components. Being stronger in one area, ANY area, can render one of the other areas LESS crucial.

I also disagree that we play a run-and-gun style. I don't know how anybody can say that after the Wilson era. Below average defensively =/= run and gun.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

6th, effort

Well, I figured that was a given, since it is a requirement for the other 5 categories.

Plus, it's foolish to think that players don't give effort in the highest professional hockey league. People erroneously assume that "effort" is what is lacking when players don't play up to their pre-conceived expectations.

 

[The Podium]

Well, I figured that was a given, since it is a requirement for the other 5 categories.

Plus, it's foolish to think that players don't give effort in the highest professional hockey league. People erroneously assume that "effort" is what is lacking when players don't play up to their pre-conceived expectations.

Efforts not always there. Zherdev or Filatov are perfect examples.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

Efforts not always there. Zherdev or Filatov are perfect examples.

And where did that land them?

The KHL.

 

[Warden of the North]

Well, I figured that was a given, since it is a requirement for the other 5 categories.

Plus, it's foolish to think that players don't give effort in the highest professional hockey league. People erroneously assume that "effort" is what is lacking when players don't play up to their pre-conceived expectations.

They dont ALWAYS give it their all

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

They dont ALWAYS give it their all

And I repeat:

And where did that land them?

The KHL.

There is also a difference between a player giving "no effort" on a play, for which we don't know all the details, and people claiming a TEAM gave no effort for a whole game.

As for that particular play, it looks a LOT worse because the player scored on that rush. Kostitsyn tried to get the puck away from the Oiler, and was beaten. The player was getting forward momentum while Kostitsyn was still turned backwards for the point shot. At that point, a probably tired Kostitsyn is not going to catch him, and he's right at the bench. So either way, he would have no impact on the rush goal. He has the option to keep chasing, and if the rush goal doesn't go in, you have a tired, offensive player trying to play defense. The option he chose was to let a fresh body get into the play in the event that the rush goal did not go in.

 

[ACC1224]

Is there some obvious connection that I'm not seeing between the last 20 odd posts and the upcoming game?

 

[Warden of the North]

Slow news day, game still three days away