Leafs at the Olympics

[JT AM da real deal]

A team that gets swept is usually not unlucky, just bad unless they ran into a goalie who just wouldn't give up anything and pitched 2-3 shutouts.

There is nothing to argue about the Leafs vs Habs series. The Leafs did handily outplay and outchance them even in the games they lost. Shit happens. Leafs had 13 shots in one OT and they had one shot and we lost. That's luck.

I have always found it interesting that certain guys always get lucky .. and some guys never get it .. Dubie believes hockey is 30% luck as per his own words .. coming from a Brack grad

 

[Gary Nylund]

There is nothing to argue. This isn't a team that gets swept by anyone. They haven't won a playoff series but they also aren't a team that is a pushover for anyone. Every series besides the Washington series (which quite frankly goes to 7 as well if not for Andersen and Marincin) has gone the distance.

I'd much rather be where we are than a team like Montreal who went to the SCF on a fluke and now is back to being the dumpster fire they were before COVID playoff rules.

I don't know if they will win a playoff series this year as well because the NHL seeding is just absolute garbage and will pit us against Florida or Tampa, two teams who are just as equally good as us.

Just enjoy the ride and be glad that there is playoff hockey every year in Toronto. We used to hope and pray for the Leafs to squeak in to the playoffs and count magic numbers and elimination scenarios in the Burke era after the lockout and we sucked every year outside of one lucky fluke lockout shortened season.

We're always in the playoffs now and a top 5-10 team in the league every year. Every year is a chance to go all the way as the team is an actual contender.

All this is true. Although I have to say, the ride would be more enjoyable if we hadn't been outscored 11-2 in our last 3 elimination games and 18-6 in the last 4. That stink won't be completely gone until we win a playoff series and as you correctly pointed out, there's the very real possibility that that once again, won't happen this spring because of how strong our division is.

That said, I agree that this team is a contender that could go all the way. I'd even say that this looks like the best team we've had in the last 50+ years, all that's left is to prove it in the spring when the games really matter.

One final word to y'all who have been going on and on about how Dubas is a moron and this team will never win anything as long as he's in charge - smoke less crack.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

So for that reason you have Hyman above him? We criticize the players on this team for not getting it done in the playoffs when Hyman has been a part of that. He's been terrible under pressure every playoff series as well. He just wasn't making the big bucks so no one cared and now he's in Edmonton so no one will care.

Zach was backbone of team .. and only reason we did not get swept in 4 games by Bruins .. and he always was FAST and TOUGH .. and his TEAM ability is 2nd to none .. even more he is one of very few guys who actually continues to develop his skills .. i mean his dad has hired da best skilled hands instructors in hockey even when he was a pro player to work on them every single summer .. how many guys do that .. it is only because they don't talk about it that you guys don't hear about it ..

 

[meefer]

a SWEEP.

You, as the person who looks at data in the most deliberate way, are using a SWEEP as the motivation to prove? Come on, don't be silly. I like Marner, but he's no McDavid, and Mitch has nothing to learn from Conner. They're both great players, but really, is this an argument you wish to continue?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Nobody is saying Marner is better than McDavid. McDavid sleepwalks his way to Art Ross and Hart trophies.

It's laughable that Marner has anything to learn from McDavid on effort, willingness to win, and defense when he's better in all three of those areas than McDavid.

This coming from a guy who wanted Marner gone and still wouldn't mind if he is gone.

Interesting. I'm not sure it's really fair to criticize McDavid on effort, willingness to win and so on but whatever, I don't really care that much and don't watch EDM enough to have a strong opinion either way.

I definitely wanted to explore the market for Marner in the summer, that was as much due to the flat camp as anything else but I have to say Dubas has done an excellent job once again of getting tasty scraps from the FA market, I am especially impressed with Kase (hope he can stay healthy) and Kampf. So yeah considering how good the team looks today, I'm kind of happy Marner is still here TBH though of course it's 100% possible that had we traded him we'd be even better.

 

[Pi]

I have always found it interesting that certain guys always get lucky .. and some guys never get it .. Dubie believes hockey is 30% luck as per his own words .. coming from a Brack grad

Dubas is smart if he said that. I'd go farther than that and say hockey is 50% luck (goaltending, bounces, tips, deflections, referee calls etc) and 50% talent and work.

In basketball, the ball goes off your hand and into the basket. No deflections, no tips, no crazy bounces. The best team usually rises to the top and wins.

In hockey, a hot goalie is sometimes all you need. Did the Habs play "winning hockey" or did Price just get hot at the right time and then went cold as they progressed further and further? Upsets happen all the time in hockey.

A Stanley Cup winning goal could bounce of 2-3 guys, hit someone's face and go into the net. That kind of luck just isn't there in a lot of other sports.

Hockey is random. Hockey is full of luck. Sooner or later, it's going to go our way but not if we are stupid and dismantle the team.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Huberdeau and Stamkos and Scheifele are far worse defensively than Marner.

Far, far worse.

and Hyman lacks the most important tools. certainly not a 5 tool player.

Well again you don't know this but Zach crushes Mitch down ice in goal line to goal line skates every camp .. and Zach's skills have improved because his dad has spent 100,000 every summer on ice and instructors to help Zack get better .. Zach has a work ethic like no one I have ever seen in hockey .. with current development curve he in on I expect Zach to be a 40 goal scorer this year or next

 

[zeke]

You, as the person who looks at data in the most deliberate way, are using a SWEEP as the motivation to prove? Come on, don't be silly. I like Marner, but he's no McDavid, and Mitch has nothing to learn from Conner. They're both great players, but really, is this an argument you wish to continue?

the argument was that Mitch could learn from McDavid's "work ethic" and "will to win".

with apparently the playoffs being the proof that Mitch needed to learn this stuff.

but to learn it from a guy who just got SWEPT? nah man.

 

[zeke]

Well again you don't know this but Zach crushes Mitch down ice in goal line to goal line skates every camp .. and Zach's skills have improved because his dad has spent 100,000 every summer on ice and instructors to help Zack get better .. Zach has a work ethic like no one I have ever seen in hockey .. with current development curve he in on I expect Zach to be a 40 goal scorer this year or next

Hyman is not a 5 tool player tho.

 

[bax]

I think he and Barzal will be last cuts ..

I guess we’ll see. I’d honestly be shocked if he didn’t make the team.

 

[Pi]

If Barzal makes it over Tavares or Marner, it's only because Trotz is one of the coaches. Certainly not on merit.

Team Canada doesn't have to grind and play boring hockey like the Islanders to win. They will have all star level talent on every line.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I guess we’ll see. I’d honestly be shocked if he didn’t make the team.

If he does then team will still be fine .. we could field 2 or 3 teams and still win .. but a ton depends on line fit .. but outside Stone (and he is weakest link) he will be slowest guy on team

 

[meefer]

the argument was that Mitch could learn from McDavid's "work ethic" and "will to win".

with apparently the playoffs being the proof that Mitch needed to learn this stuff.

but to learn it from a guy who just got SWEPT? nah man.

Then I missed the argument and thought it was your position. Both are quality players and got caught up in the vagaries that hockey offers. The best can be at their best, but in hockey the gods sometimes say, 'sorry, not today.' The SWETP/SWEEP to me is a ridiculous position, hence my irritation, one/two/three players in all their glory can be messed up by the the inconsistency of hockey, and a hot goalie.

 

[zeke]

 

[kb]

Dubas is smart if he said that. I'd go farther than that and say hockey is 50% luck (goaltending, bounces, tips, deflections, referee calls etc) and 50% talent and work.

In basketball, the ball goes off your hand and into the basket. No deflections, no tips, no crazy bounces. The best team usually rises to the top and wins.

In hockey, a hot goalie is sometimes all you need. Did the Habs play "winning hockey" or did Price just get hot at the right time and then went cold as they progressed further and further? Upsets happen all the time in hockey.

A Stanley Cup winning goal could bounce of 2-3 guys, hit someone's face and go into the net. That kind of luck just isn't there in a lot of other sports.

Hockey is random. Hockey is full of luck. Sooner or later, it's going to go our way but not if we are stupid and dismantle the team.

kb likes this. lol

Well said. Hockey has far more elements of chance (luck) that any other major sport.

 

[zeke]

 

[Dekes For Days]

I could care less about PTS

Perhaps you should consider why your choices can't produce, despite supposedly having better tools. Perhaps a sign that they're lacking in some very key tools that you've arbitrarily decided to ignore, or that being exceptional in some tools can help you overcome not being as strong in other tools. Many of your chosen players do not have all of these tools you mention, and the importance you put on these tools is completely arbitrary.

1st SPEED SPEED SPEED - and guys who can fly with breakaway speed who can flat out take you when they want

Marner is comparable or faster in straight line speed than multiple people on your list. The only ones who are notably faster in straight-line speed are McDavid, Mackinnon, Marchand, Point, and Hyman, and having that straight line speed isn't much benefit if you can't do much at that speed, like Hyman. There is also more to skating than breakaway speed, and Marner is one of the most talented skaters in the entire league.

2nd HOCKEY SENSE - knows where to go on ice, knows how to play within team/his line and thinks/anticipates game through faster than others do and always plays behind puck and/or man

Marner is one of the best in the league in terms of hockey sense; really only being surpassed on your list by McDavid and Crosby.

3rd POWER/ TOUGHNESS /SIZE - this is GOD given and innate to all of us and manifests itself in strength on puck and shot and hitting

He says, as he puts the likes of 5'9", 180 lb Marchand and 5'10", 180 lb Point on the list.

4th CREATIVITY/HANDS/SKILL - again GOD given but you need to be able to give and take a pass and finish .. too many guys I have seen with speed and size to burn but ZERO ability to score and get pucks out of their end on wall

Marner is one of the best in the league in terms of creativity and skill, and is excellent defensively. While goal-scoring may not be his specialty...

Goals scored since beginning of last year:
O'Rielly: 27
Huberdeau: 27
Marner: 26
Crosby: 26
Couture: 24
Hyman: 24 (and ironically, many of those because of Marner)
Scheifele: 23
Couturier: 23
Stone: 22

It's certainly not a reason to leave him off, especially when many others on your list are comparable.

5th TEAM FIT / STRATEGIC - most don't buy into it but lines which are successful all have it .. some guys are just lone boners and never seem to FIT and do things which help themselves but not TEAM

First off, this is not a player tool. Second, putting aside the historic disasters that have come from excluding superior players to try and create some kind of strategic fit in a two-week tournament of unfamiliar players, Marner is most definitely a player who is all about the team, can fit on any line and elevate it, and is certainly not a "lone boner".

So as we've established, your chosen players do not have all these 5 tools, and at the same time, Marner is excellent in the majority of these tools and is very clearly a better overall player than most on your list. Marner is unquestionably a lock for the team, as he should be.

 

[Twine Tickler]

If Barzal makes it over Tavares or Marner, it's only because Trotz is one of the coaches. Certainly not on merit.

Team Canada doesn't have to grind and play boring hockey like the Islanders to win. They will have all star level talent on every line.

Honestly I think Trotz is maybe the one coach I think would not have any allegiance to his players TBH. How many times has he benched Barzal over his time in NYI?

Trotz is all business. His input will be strictly about getting the best team out there. If that includes Barzal, it will be because he feels like he is the best fit IMO

 

[Gabriel426]

With the way JT, Kadri, MM and Hyman are playing, it is pretty hard to leave them off.
I know Jets had been struggling but PLD is also better choice than Barzal for now.
Then there is Mangiapane with his 15 goals. Even Duclair and Bennett should be in the mix for considerations.
Like I said in the summer, the last few spots on the team will always be interesting and debatable. If Canada wins, nobody will question those choices but if Canada lose, it will be bc they picked player X over Y.....

 

[kb]

With the way JT, Kadri, MM and Hyman are playing, it is pretty hard to leave them off.
I know Jets had been struggling but PLD is also better choice than Barzal for now.
Then there is Mangiapane with his 15 goals. Even Duclair and Bennett should be in the mix for considerations.
Like I said in the summer, the last few spots on the team will always be interesting and debatable. If Canada wins, nobody will question those choices but if Canada lose, it will be bc they picked player X over Y.....

Hyman is slipping.

 

[Gary Nylund]

With the way JT, Kadri, MM and Hyman are playing, it is pretty hard to leave them off.
I know Jets had been struggling but PLD is also better choice than Barzal for now.
Then there is Mangiapane with his 15 goals. Even Duclair and Bennett should be in the mix for considerations.
Like I said in the summer, the last few spots on the team will always be interesting and debatable. If Canada wins, nobody will question those choices but if Canada lose, it will be bc they picked player X over Y.....

So true!

 

[daethfromabove1979]

I know Jets had been struggling but PLD is also better choice than Barzal for now.

PLD is interesting. He is a solid player and looked amazing against the Leafs in the 2020 playoffs but was absolutely useless last year. Now he looks great again, who knows who shows up at the Olympics though, too risky for me.

 

[peconcan]

Nylander Matthews are locks. Marner very good shot, Tavares also has a case along with Campbell if he keeps playing like this. Kase and Kampf probably have good shots at the Czech roster too

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Perhaps you should consider why your choices can't produce, despite supposedly having better tools. Perhaps a sign that they're lacking in some very key tools that you've arbitrarily decided to ignore, or that being exceptional in some tools can help you overcome not being as strong in other tools. Many of your chosen players do not have all of these tools you mention, and the importance you put on these tools is completely arbitrary.

Marner is comparable or faster in straight line speed than multiple people on your list. The only ones who are notably faster in straight-line speed are McDavid, Mackinnon, Marchand, Point, and Hyman, and having that straight line speed isn't much benefit if you can't do much at that speed, like Hyman. There is also more to skating than breakaway speed, and Marner is one of the most talented skaters in the entire league.

Marner is one of the best in the league in terms of hockey sense; really only being surpassed on your list by McDavid and Crosby.

He says, as he puts the likes of 5'9", 180 lb Marchand and 5'10", 180 lb Point on the list.

Marner is one of the best in the league in terms of creativity and skill, and is excellent defensively. While goal-scoring may not be his specialty...

Goals scored since beginning of last year:
O'Rielly: 27
Huberdeau: 27
Marner: 26
Crosby: 26
Couture: 24
Hyman: 24 (and ironically, many of those because of Marner)
Scheifele: 23
Couturier: 23
Stone: 22

It's certainly not a reason to leave him off, especially when many others on your list are comparable.

First off, this is not a player tool. Second, putting aside the historic disasters that have come from excluding superior players to try and create some kind of strategic fit in a two-week tournament of unfamiliar players, Marner is most definitely a player who is all about the team, can fit on any line and elevate it, and is certainly not a "lone boner".

So as we've established, your chosen players do not have all these 5 tools, and at the same time, Marner is excellent in the majority of these tools and is very clearly a better overall player than most on your list. Marner is unquestionably a lock for the team, as he should be.

There are so many errors here I can't respond .. but Mitch is a lone boner .. always has been .. clearly you don't know him at all .. does not mean he is not friendly and a great kid he is .. but he has always been self absorbed from day 1 when we first met on ice doing drills when I coached him .. and outside of Stone he is BY FAR slowest guy on that team if he made it as an extra ..

 

[Dekes For Days]

There are so many errors here I can't respond .. but Mitch is a lone boner .. always has been .. clearly you don't know him at all .. does not mean he is not friendly and a great kid he is .. but he has always been self absorbed from day 1 when we first met on ice doing drills when I coached him .. and outside of Stone he is BY FAR slowest guy on that team if he made it as an extra ..

There are no errors in what I posted, which is the exact reason you can't respond. Because your lineup isn't based on any logical or consistent theory, let alone one that you can support; it's based exclusively on excluding Marner. "Lone boner" is not a real term, but based on your previous explanation of what you believe it means, it does not apply to Marner in the slightest, and you have provided zero reasons why you have applied this arbitrary label to him. He elevates any line he plays on, and prioritizes the team over himself in pretty much everything he does.

You don't know Marner. You didn't coach Marner. And people that actually did coach Marner at 6 years old still wouldn't have any clue about the player he is now, 18 years later. It's time to stop playing make-believe. He would not be the slowest guy on the team at all, even in specifically straight-line speed that you arbitrarily think is all that matters, and you're breaking your own rules by your own admission because that seemingly didn't stop you from including Stone anyway.

Marner is a lock, as he should be.

 

[Notsince67]

Huberdeau McD MAC
Marchand Crosby Berge
O'Reilly Point Stammer
Couture Couturier Stone
Extra Scheifle and Hyman
This is BEST all round team for Canada hockey to win GOLD

Without getting into a ton of detail...
Huberdeau , Couture, Scheifle....not only below average defensively but outright bad at it.
You are missing some tools