deca guard
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- Jun 22, 2019
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larionov's team building blueprint
- Thread starter deca guard
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RED ARMY EAST
Registered User
I watched the entire 1987 Canada Cup live, which IMO was the greatest run and gun hockey ever played.
Green unit vs GLM (Gretzky,Lemieux, Messier) line, with Bourque and Coffey on the back end.
Soviet East-West style was beautiful to watch and very effective, but didn't always win.
Same unit lost 84 and 87 Canada Cup, vs "best on best competition".
The game has changed, international competition is much advanced and skilled, especially the coaching.
There's much more emphasis on defence now, especially in the neutral zone.
The major advantage that the green unit had, was the fact that they trained and played together throughout there entire career, but they were magical together!
Yeah, I see it, if this WJC Team Russia had the KLM lime, it would have certainly been stronger, than now...
I mean, Amirov and Podkolzin are cool kids, but they aren't and will never be Makarov and Krutov. Nor stylistically, neither in their skills.
That WJC 2023 team, though...
I mean, Amirov and Podkolzin are cool kids, but they aren't and will never be Makarov and Krutov. Nor stylistically, neither in their skills.
That WJC 2023 team, though...
Michkov, Miroshnichenko, Yurov just to start with. And there are half a dozen more (Poltapov, Chibrikov, Trikozov, Ivantsov, Lazutin, Koromyslov, Buchelnikov etc - more than half a dozen actually), each of who has a potential to be picked in the 1st round.
It won't surprise me, if we have the whole forward group of 1st rounders plus some defensemen (Koromyslov is a strong candidate). Plus Michkov, who is of 2023 draft.
Thanks. Will be interesting to see how they pan out. I was spoiled by watching the KLM line and others in their prime so the bar is very high - likely will never be topped.
Well, I started to watch hockey with Kharlamov - Petrov - Mikhailov line, and then the KLM line happened. My standarts for Team Russia are pretty high as well.
KLM line was the best in hockey history. Soviet team in 1987 was the most dominant team ever. I just re-watched some tidbits of SU vs Canada final in Canada Cup 1987 and I couldn't believe how they handled Canadians while being hooked, tripped, held. They were from a different universe. Never again we will see the line of the same quality no matter what.
I saw those guys as well but can't remember very much as I was too young at the time. I do remember that it wasn't a very rewarding time to be fan of team Finland, though
That didn't really change until late 80ies or early 90ies.I tend to agree. Those games were also played in small NA rinks - a definite disadvantage to any Euro or Soviet team at the time.
I admire the effort but I've generally found that the less the Russians pass the puck and the less they regroup, the better they've played. Last game they stole pucks on dump and chase, or they just drove the net coming hard down the wing, using pure speed and power.
I think this team in particular doesn't have the passing skill to play the pass heavy game, it only works if you can safely connect 90%+ of the time. They also don't have the experience with each other to provide proper close-in pass options, which gets their teammates trapped. The regroups look like wizardry until they try to go forward and then they quickly run out of options. Perhaps with more experience they could master the Red Army ways but it also might be that defenses are just too strong these days, it's much harder to catch them out of position.
I think this team in particular doesn't have the passing skill to play the pass heavy game, it only works if you can safely connect 90%+ of the time. They also don't have the experience with each other to provide proper close-in pass options, which gets their teammates trapped. The regroups look like wizardry until they try to go forward and then they quickly run out of options. Perhaps with more experience they could master the Red Army ways but it also might be that defenses are just too strong these days, it's much harder to catch them out of position.
For those who have forgotten how good the KLM line was. Here they go circles past the best Canadian players in Canada Cup 87. Although this russia u20 is good, they have a long way to go until they can be compared to '' The Green Unit ''. I must also say that this larionov hockey is much more fun than Bragin's hockey. But will it be as successful?
RED ARMY EAST
Registered User
1987 Who won?? They didn't have an answer for Gretzky and Lemieux, arguably the two best of all time!
The deadliest 1-2 combo that the Soviets ever encountered. Both of those two stars battled through the same hooking, holding etc.. Igor Dimitriev referred to Gretz, as the "invisible man" and Lemieux "the scorer".
Larionov may inject some old time Soviet skills into the junior program, but it is a different game now.
I wouldn't be so sure it was the same. The last time I watched that series it was more one-sided.
Even on the winning goal you can ask how Lemieux got open. Look at the backchecker that gets hacked down at the center red line.
Canada had some amazing talent but that Soviet team was the best team ever assembled. The goaltender was the weakest part of that team but in my opinion Canada was outplayed for all 3 games. Officiating was profoundly anti Soviet. In my opinion with proper officiating this Soviet team would beat Canada easily. Every shift Canada hooked, tripped, held but I believe Soviets were penalized more, which was absurd.
Firsov99
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- Feb 17, 2006
- 5,138
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Both teams were fantastic, but you are dismissing the fact the Canadians had the home-field advantage in ALL three games. Plus the NHL-sized rink and NHL rules clearly played in favor of the hosts.
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The only way all-star Canada could compete with the Red machine in 1987 is by blatantly hooking and slashing Soviet player and Refs looking the other way for all 3 games
Red machine from the 1980s was indeed the best team ever and they trained together for 11months each year - different rink size, 10hrs time zone change, nothing mattered, those guys were just unstoppable
Red machine from the 1980s was indeed the best team ever and they trained together for 11months each year - different rink size, 10hrs time zone change, nothing mattered, those guys were just unstoppable
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Canadians didn't have answers to the KLM line as well. I'd say Tikhonov should have used them in a more of the NHL way, to play them well above, than the 3rd and 4th lines. Not sure, if you remember, but we had 3 PP teams at the tournament, and every time we used that 3rd group, we didn't use the 1st and the best one.
Zine
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2002
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No. The national team circa 1978-1984 was the most dominant, minus the 1980 debacle. The 1987 team was unusually thin at defense beyond Fetisov/Kasatonov and the goaltending was nowhere near Tretiak level.
Also Svetlov and Yashin didnt play at the CC, which meant the tourney was played without our normal 3rd line.
Anyhow, I agree with what Larionov (and to an extent the FHR) is implementing so as long as it’s not to the exclusion of all other tactics.
The old soviet style is a good foundation, but the game is so globalized today and tactics are too evolved to rely on that style solely.
JackSlater
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- Apr 27, 2010
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That is arguably the best line ever but the 1987 Soviets were not the most dominant team ever. USSR had several better teams years earlier. In particular in terms of goaltending and depth.
BadgerBruce
Registered User
- Aug 8, 2013
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Sigh. Seeing that highlight video brings back so many wonderful memories.
The old Soviet style Larionov wants is all about speed behind the puck. 90% of the passes are laterals to a streaking teammate or backwards as part of a regroup. Properly executed, beautiful 5-man offence. Give-and-go offence is highly entertaining — I’m a big fan and the game needs more of this.
So my problem has never been about the old Soviet offensive philosophy. I love it.
No, my issue has always been that the defensive philosophy never demonstrated anything close to the same brilliance. Even if we go back to ‘72, Esposito scores 7 goals in 8 games and 6 are from the low slot. Where was Henderson’s goal scored? Same thing. 87 Canada Cup saw the Soviets give up 17 goals in 3 games, 14 of them either from the low slot or the result of heavy slot traffic. Has there ever been an elite offensive team with less philosophical commitment to owning the front of the net or controlling rebounds? Sometimes, a well-prepared opponent turns the game into a war, and that’s when a team’s ability to raise the shields needs to match its ability to raise the rifles. You know, sometimes you’re the hammer and sometimes you’re the nail. That’s the nature of the game.
So in a nutshell, I’m pleased that Larionov has re-introduced the best elements of the old school offensive approach. But until I see a complete re-think of how the Russians play without the puck, wins when they matter are anything but a sure thing.
The old Soviet style Larionov wants is all about speed behind the puck. 90% of the passes are laterals to a streaking teammate or backwards as part of a regroup. Properly executed, beautiful 5-man offence. Give-and-go offence is highly entertaining — I’m a big fan and the game needs more of this.
So my problem has never been about the old Soviet offensive philosophy. I love it.
No, my issue has always been that the defensive philosophy never demonstrated anything close to the same brilliance. Even if we go back to ‘72, Esposito scores 7 goals in 8 games and 6 are from the low slot. Where was Henderson’s goal scored? Same thing. 87 Canada Cup saw the Soviets give up 17 goals in 3 games, 14 of them either from the low slot or the result of heavy slot traffic. Has there ever been an elite offensive team with less philosophical commitment to owning the front of the net or controlling rebounds? Sometimes, a well-prepared opponent turns the game into a war, and that’s when a team’s ability to raise the shields needs to match its ability to raise the rifles. You know, sometimes you’re the hammer and sometimes you’re the nail. That’s the nature of the game.
So in a nutshell, I’m pleased that Larionov has re-introduced the best elements of the old school offensive approach. But until I see a complete re-think of how the Russians play without the puck, wins when they matter are anything but a sure thing.
RED ARMY EAST
Registered User
Did you ever watch the games from the 72 series (Moscow). The officiating was so unbalanced, it's a flat out miracle that Canada was able to win any of those games.
The Soviets carried the advantage in every single tournament on big ice, including the World Championships,Olympic Games. They were considered amateur, no professional competition.
They dominated, yes, but look at the competition folks (amateur). That's why the Canada Cup was created, as a "best on best' tournament. Soviets never faired well against Canada on the small ice, fact!
IMO, The 76 team wasn't close to Canada's best
Soviet Union results Canada Cup/World Cup:
76 Canada
81 Soviet Union
84 Canada
87 Canada
91 Canada-post Soviet Union
96 USA (World Cup)
04 Canada (World Cup)
I agree that they were marvellous to watch, so much creativity, a team composed of the best Soviet players, that could train and play together all year round.
I think that this is why the US U17-18 development program has been so successful in recent years.
There is your blueprint. A rookie coach who thinks defence and board battles are below him. He literally said that.
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