LA KINGS 2023/4 Regular season discussion

[ScoreZeGoals]

Back to 5 games in hand on both Vegas and Vancouver

 

[King'sPawn]

who would you take out of the line up as far as right side d for him?
I would Roy, but then you have Clarke and Spence both rotating third pair next year. This is still a good trade for both

Well, if not spending the $7.5 million on Fiala (as he came with the trade), you could sit out or trade Spence/Roy.

Still debatable if it's a good trade for both. Fiala's been helpful in many ways, but a steady, 21 year-old blueliner who's getting early attention as a top defenseman doesn't seem like something teams should part with.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Back to 5 games in hand on both Vegas and Vancouver

It's a game almost every other day in January, 15 games.

 

[bland]

Well, if not spending the $7.5 million on Fiala (as he came with the trade), you could sit out or trade Spence/Roy.

Still debatable if it's a good trade for both. Fiala's been helpful in many ways, but a steady, 21 year-old blueliner who's getting early attention as a top defenseman doesn't seem like something teams should part with.

No potential first-pairing defenseman on an ELC should EVER be traded. They are worth more than any winger. You can get offense at any time, it is incredibly difficult to acquire a player of Faber's quality.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Folks never wanted to credit Stumpel for having multiple ppg years for the Kinfs in the dead puck era while also being strong defensively. Allison had a short run as a true #1c as well.

If the argument is that the Kings didn't have a "star" #1c, sure, there was a gap, but the actual difference between Anze and those two isn't all that big. Anze's a hall of famer for his longevity, not his peak.

I'd say peak allison rivals him. But Stumpel never really did. No one would win a thing with STumpel as a 1C though he was an absolutely ideal 2C. Had the brain to be the 1C but not the tools, he'd get run over by this generation's 1Cs in matchups by both size and speed if not raw talent/processing.

i still cant figure out what kevin fiala is doing on a typical shift. to my eye, its looks mighty chaotic. is it possible that alot of the points he puts up are by accident?

Hands and feet of diamond, brain of coal. I wouldn't necessarily call them accidental, but they often aren't with great design, he's not thinking two steps ahead of anyone.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Well, if not spending the $7.5 million on Fiala (as he came with the trade), you could sit out or trade Spence/Roy.

Still debatable if it's a good trade for both. Fiala's been helpful in many ways, but a steady, 21 year-old blueliner who's getting early attention as a top defenseman doesn't seem like something teams should part with.

You easily recoup a 1st+ for Roy, keep Faber in his spot with Gavrikov. Then you have 15 years with Faber/Clarke/Spence.

I'd go so far as to say Minny won the trade at this point. Kings aren't doing anything with Fiala. His disappearing act at clutch times has followed him here, I love how bland says it, it's empty calories scoring. It was supposed to be/should be win-win but with Fiala's play tapering down to just a slightly more productive Andreas Athanasiou it's looking pretty grim.

 

[KINGS17]

No potential first-pairing defenseman on an ELC should EVER be traded. They are worth more than any winger. You can get offense at any time, it is incredibly difficult to acquire a player of Faber's quality.

Evidence:
1. Jeff Carter in 2012 for Jack Johnson and a conditional 1st round pick
2. Marion Gaborik in 2014. for Matt Frattin (who?), a 2014 2nd round pick, and a conditional 3rd round pick

I don't think we will find a trade that brought instant defense to a cup contender for fewer magic beans.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Evidence:
1. Jeff Carter in 2012 for Jack Johnson and a conditional 1st round pick
2. Marion Gaborik in 2014. for Matt Frattin (who?), a 2014 2nd round pick, and a conditional 3rd round pick

I don't think we will find a trade that brought instant defense to a cup contender for fewer magic beans.

What was the trade for Mitchell and Scuderi?

EDIT Both were UFA signings it looks like, probably should have looked that up first

 

[bland]

If I were Blake, I would be exploring the market for Roy now.

Earlier this year it seemed like the most beneficial move would be to hold him through the playoffs and let him move on in the summer. But as the year has progressed, Clarke is proving to be too damn good to risk to goonery and its becoming more and more clear that the team needs an influx of dynamism that is missing from the forward group.

If you can get a later first and a prospect now, plus the cap flexibility to address the inevitable Talbot injury, you have to look at it.

 

[King'sPawn]

No potential first-pairing defenseman on an ELC should EVER be traded. They are worth more than any winger. You can get offense at any time, it is incredibly difficult to acquire a player of Faber's quality.

You easily recoup a 1st+ for Roy, keep Faber in his spot with Gavrikov. Then you have 15 years with Faber/Clarke/Spence.

I'd go so far as to say Minny won the trade at this point. Kings aren't doing anything with Fiala. His disappearing act at clutch times has followed him here, I love how bland says it, it's empty calories scoring. It was supposed to be/should be win-win but with Fiala's play tapering down to just a slightly more productive Andreas Athanasiou it's looking pretty grim.

From the get-go I didn't like the trade, and still don't. But I also still honestly believe until we get more data, that it's too early to reach a verdict.

Heck, by 2026, maybe he's leading the team in playoff scoring amid a Conn Smythe run, while Faber demands a trade because he wants to fulfill his childhood dream of one day wearing the Blue Jackets logo because it's "dank, yo."

But in all seriousness, more needs to be observed before we can fairly assess the trade. Because on both sides, we're still operating more on gut and feelings. Myself included.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Good news: Turcussion back skating red jersey

 

[SaltyElkHunter]

We need Gavrikov back and a goalie before January. It’s about to get real!

 

[bmr]

Good news: Turcussion back skating red jersey

That's extremely encouraging! I'm sure they are being very cautious with this young man because of his concussion history.

 

[BaileyFan]

If I were Blake, I would be exploring the market for Roy now.

Earlier this year it seemed like the most beneficial move would be to hold him through the playoffs and let him move on in the summer. But as the year has progressed, Clarke is proving to be too damn good to risk to goonery and its becoming more and more clear that the team needs an influx of dynamism that is missing from the forward group.

If you can get a later first and a prospect now, plus the cap flexibility to address the inevitable Talbot injury, you have to look at it.

It would be shocking if Blake trades Roy with his job on the line in the playoffs. I think it’s much more likely he deals Spence for a 2nd or as part of a package for a rental then rolls Doughty-Clarke-scrub making league minimum on the right side next season.

 

[bmr]

You easily recoup a 1st+ for Roy, keep Faber in his spot with Gavrikov. Then you have 15 years with Faber/Clarke/Spence.

I'd go so far as to say Minny won the trade at this point. Kings aren't doing anything with Fiala. His disappearing act at clutch times has followed him here, I love how bland says it, it's empty calories scoring. It was supposed to be/should be win-win but with Fiala's play tapering down to just a slightly more productive Andreas Athanasiou it's looking pretty grim.

It's crazy the depth of players we would have had on defense. Doughty/Roy/Spence/Clarke/Faber. Who stays and who goes? Extremely tough decisions to make. I still think Faber wanted to be in Minnesota to be closer to his sister. The debate on that can continue - maybe Blake can include it in his memoir.

It would be shocking if Blake trades Roy with his job on the line in the playoffs. I think it’s much more likely he deals Spence for a 2nd or as part of a package for a rental then rolls Doughty-Clarke-scrub making league minimum on the right side next season.

I think dealing Spence at this point would be a big mistake. The most likely casualty will be Roy at the end of the season. Maybe they try to sign him, but I'd imagine he will probably be in the $4-5 range. Clarke is definitely getting called up if any RHD go down.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

No dude, its the glaring lack of nuance and the substitution of irrelevant "facts" that is the problem here.


Ya don't say...

Chazz wrote “PLD has played very poorly, but here’s an interesting thing he does objectively well.”

This is the definition of nuance.

You are arguing a position that it doesn’t matter what kind of stats or graphs people come up with, PLD has played poorly and the conversation should end there.

This is decidedly un-nuanced.

Do you really not see that?

PLD has sucked in his time here. Literally no one disputes that. But if people can’t even discuss something he does well without you sperging out, you’re the one stifling conversation.

 

[King'sPawn]

If I were Blake, I would be exploring the market for Roy now.

Earlier this year it seemed like the most beneficial move would be to hold him through the playoffs and let him move on in the summer. But as the year has progressed, Clarke is proving to be too damn good to risk to goonery and its becoming more and more clear that the team needs an influx of dynamism that is missing from the forward group.

If you can get a later first and a prospect now, plus the cap flexibility to address the inevitable Talbot injury, you have to look at it.

No GM in the playoff hunt should (understandably, IMO) try to trade an active roster player for a pick - especially after they traded away the prospect who would best replace him (Faber).

We'd be returning to an era of half-measures.

For better or worse, Blake has committed to going for it.

Though I agree that Clarke should be up and having some rotations with Spence.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Kings could have gone after Ryan O'Reilly or Nick Bjugstad if they needed a bridge between Kopitar retiring and Byfield taking over as 1C.

They could have then just traded AI to clear up that 4 million and get rid of one of the three players making 4 million in Moore, AI, and Arvidsson.

Byfield-Kopitar-Kempe
Arvidsson-Danault-Moore
Fiala-RR or Bjugstad-Vilardi
Grundstrom-Lizotte-Lewis/Kupari

They would then have 4 plus million to use for a goalie or another forward.

 

[bland]

No GM in the playoff hunt should (understandably, IMO) try to trade an active roster player for a pick - especially after they traded away the prospect who would best replace him (Faber).

We'd be returning to an era of half-measures.

For better or worse, Blake has committed to going for it.

Though I agree that Clarke should be up and having some rotations with Spence.

Its not a half measure in any sense.

The Kings need to make room for Clarke. He is ready to play now. He is on his ELC which helps the immediate cap concerns.

This is not a contender, and frankly as much as I have pumped Roy's tires here when 99% of the board didn't have him in their top 15 prospects, there is a damn good argument to be made that replacing Roy with Clarke would actually make them better NOW.

Roy plateaued two years ago and hasn't upgraded his game since. Somehow he has lost his touch for the puck and has struggled with clearances and breakouts over the time span. Yeah, he is very sound defensively and able to absorb a lot of physicality without wilting, but I don't know that those aspects of his game are more useful to the current team than what Clarke would bring.

 

[bland]

Chazz wrote “PLD has played very poorly, but here’s an interesting thing he does objectively well.”

This is the definition of nuance.

You are arguing a position that it doesn’t matter what kind of stats or graphs people come up with, PLD has played poorly and the conversation should end there.

This is decidedly un-nuanced.

Do you really not see that?

PLD has sucked in his time here. Literally no one disputes that. But if people can’t even discuss something he does well without you sperging out, you’re the one stifling conversation.

No, that's not what I am arguing at all.

But expecting you to understand that would require, so ironically, a nuanced conversation of whether I am disagreeing with Chazz's point or the overall methodology of using statistics as evidence in ANY discussion like this.

Besides, this was put to bed yesterday. Let it go.

 

[kinghock]

Its not a half measure in any sense.

The Kings need to make room for Clarke. He is ready to play now. He is on his ELC which helps the immediate cap concerns.

This is not a contender, and frankly as much as I have pumped Roy's tires here when 99% of the board didn't have him in their top 15 prospects, there is a damn good argument to be made that replacing Roy with Clarke would actually make them better NOW.

Roy plateaued two years ago and hasn't upgraded his game since. Somehow he has lost his touch for the puck and has struggled with clearances and breakouts over the time span. Yeah, he is very sound defensively and able to absorb a lot of physicality without wilting, but I don't know that those aspects of his game are more useful to the current team than what Clarke would bring.

I do not believe Clarke is ready to play now.
He needs to gain some 15-20 extra pounds and improve speed of his skating.
Also, he needs to improve his back skating.
Offensively he needs to work on his shooting.
It is not very powerful yet.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

No, that's not what I am arguing at all.

But expecting you to understand that would require, so ironically, a nuanced conversation of whether I am disagreeing with Chazz's point or the overall methodology of using statistics as evidence in ANY discussion like this.

Besides, this was put to bed yesterday. Let it go.

Your definition of “nuance” is arbitrarily dismissing certain analytics and retreating to the unfalsifiable subjectivity of “eye test.”

I see through your sophomoric rhetorical tricks just fine. Don’t be mad I called you out on this one. Let it go.

 

[bmr]

Its not a half measure in any sense.

The Kings need to make room for Clarke. He is ready to play now. He is on his ELC which helps the immediate cap concerns.

This is not a contender, and frankly as much as I have pumped Roy's tires here when 99% of the board didn't have him in their top 15 prospects, there is a damn good argument to be made that replacing Roy with Clarke would actually make them better NOW.

Roy plateaued two years ago and hasn't upgraded his game since. Somehow he has lost his touch for the puck and has struggled with clearances and breakouts over the time span. Yeah, he is very sound defensively and able to absorb a lot of physicality without wilting, but I don't know that those aspects of his game are more useful to the current team than what Clarke would bring.

The big question to me at this point is does Clarke's inexperience and higher offensive skillset outweigh Roy's stability and veteran presence on the defensive end? I'd be more comfortable having Roy in the playoffs at this point.

 

[lexlavender]

I think the souring on Fiala is a bit of the "what have you done for me latelys" then I think legit criticism. He is looking pretty milquetoast this season, but I still think his production and stats are strong. He is doing well in fancy stats for the time, still racking up points.

Just eye test for him as well, he seems to attack offensively in a way that is unique for the Kings. He feels a little cold right now, but could easily heat up soon.

Personally, with the last few games being the way they were, I'd probably go the following:

Moore Danault Kaliyev
Fiala Dubois Grunstrom

Maybe a shake up will do the players some good. Not to mention that Fiala and Dubois were strong during the preseason and did pretty well to start the season.

 

[Sol]

Fiala is perfectly fine. Kings need to trade Roy and PLD. I don’t think Roy will be missed at all.