Kyle Dubas discussion

[fahad203]

Okay, which players do you think Dubas should have brought in? And what should have gone out? And how would the cap management have to change in order to ‘bring in the right players’?

If all of:

Cobra
Engvall
Thornton
Kerfoot
Galchenyuk
Foligno
Nash
Barrie
Simmonds

Are bad …. Who is ‘good’? And what makes you think that your list would perform better than his group? Is it simply because they are different? Is that the only criteria you’re looking at?

“Oh, if these players were wrong, I mean it’s obvious that these ones are the right ones!”

In the famous words of Joe Biden, “come on, man….”

I don't know.... Take a page out of Florida

Sam Bennett who even in Calgary was a hitting machine and didn't have injury problems?
Not trade Kadri for a D who can't play D? you had to trade him, but you could have traded him to 10 other teams
Kapanen trade who still haven't seen any benefit from.... Amirov maybe in 3 years but we kind of need to ice a team now

Not sign Simmonds ? Maybe go after Perry instead and not sign Joe T
Not get useless plugs like Vessey, Petan, Malgin

Or maybe not have so much faith in Justin Holl and be proactive finding another d during summer
Maybe not get Mrazek, if you ever watched him play you know he's inconsistent

Or heck fire the coach that let down 2 years in a row and get a coach actually won in playoffs
Like Gallant when he was available

 

[Strangle]

YAWN. Not falling for this tactic. I'm not the GM. The guy who is should use the resources available and do his job, and stop trying to be the players' "pal".

That’s what he’s doing. He’s using the resources available and he’s doing the job.

I have no idea what you expect him to do differently except “get the right players”.

There might not even be a combination of players that are even available the past 4 years that he could have gotten that would have won a cup. We might already have the players who will. You don’t know, I don’t know.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

So then why are you here complaining?

Something to do...

 

[57 Years No Cup]

That’s what he’s doing. He’s using the resources available and he’s doing the job.

I have no idea what you expect him to do differently except “get the right players”.

There might not even be a combination of players that are even available the past 4 years that he could have gotten that would have won a cup. We might already have the players who will. You don’t know, I don’t know.

After 5 years of failure I think the odds are pretty good that, yeah, we know...

 

[All Mod Cons]

Of course they have made bad moves. But a GM can make all the right moves, but it doesn’t matter if the players don’t execute.

At the end of the day, Dubas can’t score goals.

So is Kyle just unlucky?

I don't feel like having an unlucky GM is a good thing for us.

 

[Sypher04]

Ahhhhh...... Participation Trophies, how nice!

This this the NHL, not House League.

Ahhhhh..... choosing to not understand what I said, how nice!

 

[Strangle]

I don't know.... Take a page out of Florida

Sam Bennett who even in Calgary was a hitting machine and didn't have injury problems?
Not trade Kadri for a D who can't play D? you had to trade him, but you could have traded him to 10 other teams
Kapanen trade who still haven't seen any benefit from.... Amirov maybe in 3 years but we kind of need to ice a team now

Not sign Simmonds ? Maybe go after Perry instead and not sign Joe T
Not get useless plugs like Vessey, Petan, Malgin

Or maybe not have so much faith in Justin Holl and be proactive finding another forward during summer
Maybe not get Mrazek, if you ever watched him play you know he's inconsistent

Or heck fire the coach that let down 2 years in a row and get a coach actually won in playoffs
Like Gallant when he was available

Gotcha.

So Sam Bennett, Kadri for a mystery player (this is for sure going to make the team better), keep kapanen, sign Perry, skip Thornton, put holl back in the minors or …. Something? Find another mystery player, go into the season with campbell and another mystery player as the backup.

That for sure sounds like a much better team than what we have now. Campbells hurt so mystery goalie better be a good one.

Kapanen and mystery player for Kadri and Sam Bennett and Corey Perry. Stanley cup for sure

Oh and gallant coaching.

So what makes you think that team would be better than this one? I don’t have the patience to type out the lines, but, I’m sure they are sparkling

 

[Strangle]

So is Kyle just unlucky?

I don't feel like having an unlucky GM is a good thing for us.

No, the players haven’t done the job

 

[IPS]

Call me when the playoffs start. The regular season is meaningless.

Clearly you didn't get the memo. We're supposed to worship him for his regular season results but have a laundry list of excuses ready when the team blows 3-1 leads in the playoffs.

 

[ACC1224]

Of course the GM is accountable. That’s not what we are talking about here.

If you specifically have examples of what you would have done differently, hit me with it.

I happen to agree with the vast majority of Dubas’ decisions. What do you think he’s done that’s his fault? That’s holding the team back?

It’s his job to build the team, not mine. I don’t have any interest in building fantasy teams. Don’t really see the point of it.
Agreeing with something that’s wrong doesn’t make it right. It could just mean you’re both wrong.
I’ve liked a lot of what he’s done as well, more so lately. He and the coach will still need to go if they don’t get over the hump. They know that.

 

[ACC1224]

maybe the poster is one of those guys that isn't into de-railing threads, who knows?

Got it.

 

[cookie]

Are we forgetting injuries to key players in back-to-back playoffs? Tavares, and Muzzin aren't some random jobbers and there's been far too many players playing hurt during the course of entire seasons. If I were Dubas, I'd put the onus on Keefe to not play guys unless they're at a 100% - the Wayne train, for example, doesn't shift the needle so far as to deny Steeves, Anderson, Robertson, etc. a shot.

 

[mikeyz]

Yikes. Thank God Dubas didn't pull the trigger on this deal.

 

[Mad hatter]

Kept the same overpaid top four forwards that have failed in the playoffs for the last 5 years, for starters.

I agree that a change was probably needed and has to be if they fail again. I don’t get the overpaid players though. Matthews is in the MVP conversation so not sure how he’s overpaid. Marner is maybe slightly overpaid I suppose but not enough to acquire a good player. Nylander probably outplays his contract so he shouldn’t be included in this argument, ever. JT is overpaid for what he provides now but that’s the joy of the UFA market.

I don’t care who’s the GM, coach, or playing on the team, as long as we win. The leafs are definitely a top tier, regular season team, despite the goaltending. If they fail in the playoffs again change needs to be made and hopefully Dubas has it in him to do it.

 

[cookie]

Conventional wisdom is to not overpay in a sellers' market that the trade deadline has become... the only issue is that the marketplace is still fraught with GMs that can' evaluate players correctly and who employ coaches that may not be icing the best lineups either. Lindholm is off the table and Muzzin, as poor as his play has been this year, will probably be part of the Leafs' playoff defense corps

 

[Dreakmur]

Are we forgetting injuries to key players in back-to-back playoffs? Tavares, and Muzzin aren't some random jobbers

Those are both significant injuries, but we didn’t lose to contending teams. We lost to two teams that would not have made the playoffs under non-covid adjustments. If we’re just 1 injury away from losing to Montreal, we’re a fragile team.

 

[m1ker]

Lindholm to bruins, giroux to panthers

 

[Leafsfan74]

I don't know.... Take a page out of Florida

Sam Bennett who even in Calgary was a hitting machine and didn't have injury problems?
Not trade Kadri for a D who can't play D? you had to trade him, but you could have traded him to 10 other teams
Kapanen trade who still haven't seen any benefit from.... Amirov maybe in 3 years but we kind of need to ice a team now

Not sign Simmonds ? Maybe go after Perry instead and not sign Joe T
Not get useless plugs like Vessey, Petan, Malgin

Or maybe not have so much faith in Justin Holl and be proactive finding another d during summer
Maybe not get Mrazek, if you ever watched him play you know he's inconsistent

Or heck fire the coach that let down 2 years in a row and get a coach actually won in playoffs
Like Gallant when he was available

Apparently Dubas tried to land Bennett at some point from what I read (I liked Bennett too btw, Bunting is a similar player so the Leafs actually lucked out there). I forget where or the reason it didn't happen.

Kerfoot/Barrie wasn't his first choice, Kadri nixed the deal for Brodie. As it were I thought Dubas did well in that trade and Kerfoot, whether here or somewhere else is a multipurpose player who adapts to all situations. Call me a Neanderthal for liking the old school +/- stat, I know it doesn't tell all the story, but he is second on the team in that category and can fill in up or down the lineup (I'd still trade him or others for the right return)

Kappy had to go for multiple reasons, not least of which he was redundant. A First Round return was theft.

I like Holl. Whether here or somewhere else he at least hits and he always give an honest effort.

That is all

 

[Leafsfan74]

Lindholm to bruins, giroux to panthers

I'm glad the Leafs didn't chase Lindholm, especially at that price.

Please Dubas, please find mean D Men. The playoffs are going to be a battle.

Florida is stacked. Nothing a balanced offense with elite top end scoring and physical shutdown mean D-Core (yes, I'm a broken record) can't beat. Dubas just has to forget the advance stats and look at the following:

Hits
Blocked Shots
Height/Weight
Ornery disposition

 

[Menzinger]

Shanahan - first with Lou and Babcock, and now with Dubas and Keefe - has taken a horribly run franchise and turned it into one that seems to run pretty well. We’re drafting, scouting, and developing better. We’re managing assets better. We’re using our cash advantage to build a really nice program here.

That program they put together strikes me as one that is very proficient at making this team good, but may not be able to get them into the truly elite status. The competitiveness and accountability seems to be lacking for this to truly become an elite playoff team. The whole “safe space” that they have tried to create is counter productive when you step on the ice and your opponent wants to beat the crap out of you. There might really be something to the old saying that nice guys finish last.

I think this is an interesting way of framing it. The way the Leafs are overall run is mile's better and more modern than the disaster of 2004-2014 where the Leafs we're arguably one of the worst run team in all of pro sports. It's absolutely insane to think about how much wealth and resources and opportunity the Leafs had during those dark years and could barely function.

Ultimately the Dubas-Shanny era has bet their Leafs careers on the core being able to deliver when it matters. And so far the players haven't upheld their end of the bargain.

That doesn't excuse the front office who are the ones who made the bet to begin with but it's more complicated than some are suggesting. The reason why Leafs haven't won a round isn't because the big three are allegedly overpaid by a few hundred thousand than some wanted or because the team is missing an extra grinder. The guys just have to deliver when needed.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Those are both significant injuries, but we didn’t lose to contending teams. We lost to two teams that would not have made the playoffs under non-covid adjustments. If we’re just 1 injury away from losing to Montreal, we’re a fragile team.

We lost to a team with the same record as us after sitting for four months, and then we along with Winnipeg and Vegas got beat by Carey price turning back the clock to early mid 2010’s for a five week stretch.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I think this is an interesting way of framing it. The way the Leafs are overall run is Mike's better and more modern than the disaster of 2004-2014 where the Leafs we're arguably one of the worst run team in all of pro sports. It's absolutely insane to think about how much wealth and resources and opportunity the Leafs had during those dark years and could barely function.

Ultimately the Dubas-Shanny era has bet their Leafs careers on the core being able to deliver when it matters. And so far the players haven't upheld their end of the bargain.

That doesn't excuse the front office who are the ones who made the bet to begin with but it's more complicated than some are suggesting. The reason wby Leafs haven't won around isn't because the big three are allegedly overpaid by a few hundred thousand than some wanted or because the team is missing an extra grinder. The guys just have to deliver when needed.

If your stars don’t perform and you don’t get timely goaltending your goose is cooked in the post season.

 

[Suntouchable13]

We lost to a team with the same record as us after sitting for four months, and then we along with Winnipeg and Vegas got beat by Carey price turning back the clock to early mid 2010’s for a five week stretch.

No, our stars simply didn't deliver. Simple as that. Stop excusing them. They had Carey and MTL down 3-1 and couldn't deliver the finishing blow. It's on them.

Anyway, I hope Dubas doesn't do anything major. This our team, let's see what they got. Maybe one day it will "click" for them. Nothing out there is going to put us over the top anyway until these guys start to carry this team like they are paid to do.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

I think Dubas has done a good (not great) job drafting and finding bargain bin talent but if we get eliminated because our goalies shit the bed in the playoffs again he deserves to be fired.

It’s a glaring issue and if trusting a goalie with two starts, an inconsistent Campbell and whatever the hell Mrazek is backfires, he needs to be shown the door.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That doesn't excuse the front office who are the ones who made the bet to begin with but it's more complicated than some are suggesting. The reason why Leafs haven't won a round isn't because the big three are allegedly overpaid by a few hundred thousand than some wanted or because the team is missing an extra grinder. The guys just have to deliver when needed.

LOL "a few hundred thousand". 9 million was a fair price for Marner, he got almost 11 and not for max term either.