Kyle Dubas discussion

[ACC1224]

Of course they have made bad moves. But a GM can make all the right moves, but it doesn’t matter if the players don’t execute.

At the end of the day, Dubas can’t score goals.

Then he needs to get players who do.

At the end of the day the GM, Coach and Players are all accountable

 

[IPS]

Ahhhhh...... Participation Trophies, how nice!

This this the NHL, not House League.

These guys already have their excuses lined up yet again if the team fails yet again. I swear most of them were on board with firing Dubas if we lose in round 1 again earlier this year but now they've defaulted back to defending him no matter what.

 

[Nylanderthal]

That's the point that Dubas supporters are ignoring. Yes the Leafs are playing well this year but are they in any better position than 4 years ago? Not really.

The team with three star players each making under 1m vs now accounting for 30m? That’s 25m in depth to account for

 

[therealkoho]

The whole thing was immediately crippled by handing over big money.

Matthews is underpaid, wish the term was longer.

Willy has a fair deal.

Mitch was worth 9 at the most and if Dubas had any balls he would have pulled him aside and said ‘I will trade you to Arizona and bar anyone related to you from ever entering the SBC if you don’t sign this deal.’

that's some crazy movie you're living in bro!

JT has been great overall in his tenure but was he really necessary? Naz was gone after that last suspension but nothing was stopping the Leafs from getting a guy like Sam Reinhart.

Nobody was complaining when they signed JT, people talk like this guy has been putting up 41 pts a season, he's producing at 1PPG, in hindsight maybe I wouldn't have offered the 7th year, but hey what's done is done

Naz!! don't get me started, but Landeskog was/is right in that the league has a hard-on for him and unfortunately nobody can prove it.

additionally as a UFA maybe Reinhart says he wants 9m X6 to sign here, do the Leafs still sign him? what about at 8m X7?

And…

The ‘ELC depth to place around the stars’, yeah that hasn’t shown up on F, so we hunt bargain bin deals because picks get traded away for scrubs like Foligno or to fix Lou’s Marleau mistake.

Sometimes they just get unlucky, like Amirov’s brain tumor (what’s happening there? I haven’t heard much).

They’ll get there eventually but yeah, frustrating.

I'm no doctor but Amirov has a fairly long road ahead of him so there's probably nothing to report which is probably good news at least that's what I hope

 

[Strangle]

Then he needs to get players who do.

At the end of the day the GM, Coach and Players are all accountable

What players would you ‘get who do’?

People too often act as though this stuff exists in a vacuum, that a GM can just go and pluck whatever talent exists. But they obviously cannot do that.

What people often ignore, is that players are not just their stat sheets. No GM exists in the head of their players. If Dubas could trade the entire team for the Lightning’s roster, let’s say. Do you do it? They have proven they are able to win.

Let’s say Dubas does that. He trades the entire maple leaf roster for the lightnings roster. Is that a good idea? Did Dubas do a good job? Since nothing has to do with the players and the idea is just to get guys who win, that sounds like the right thing to do.

Now what if that team doesn’t win the cup this year? Is that Dubas’ fault? He did exactly what you’re saying should end in the best result.

But what if in this hypothetical Florida won. Does that mean it’s the Florida GM who won the cup? Because he didn’t trade his roster for the Tampa roster? Is he the only GM who is good?

Or even worse, what if Tampa won with the Leafs old roster?

At some point the players need to actually do the thing. And no one is omniscient, no one can predict what’s going to happen. It doesn’t mean they’ve done a bad job. It doesn’t even mean it’s their fault.

If the Leafs win the whole damn thing this year, does that mean Dubas was only a good GM this year? And he was a bad gm all the other years?

What if Marner wins the conn Smyth? He’s good enough to do that. Does that make Dubas a clown for not trading him last year when he sucked? Or does it make him a genius for not trading him?

It’s like Dubas is both a moron and a genius at the same time, and until the players execute or don’t execute we don’t know which one he is.

It’s a really silly way to look at the team.

 

[IPS]

Those 2020 leafs and Columbus were tied in the standings as the 8-9 play-in matchup. How were they weaker?
The habs and specifically carry price then went on to sweep the Jets & then handle everyone’s cup favourite Vegas pretty handily.
Was it a disappointment? Of course, but context is important.

So where is that you draw the line then? It was ok to lose to Columbus cause we were close in the standings. It was ok to lose to Montreal because they beat a couple teams after beating us, and it's going to be ok to lose to whoever we face this year because it's going to be a good team.

Are these your standards? As long as we look good losing there's nothing to worry about? Sorry but I just can't wrap my head around this type of mentality.

 

[therealkoho]

I’m still trying to figure out how the first post in the thread is quoting someone else?
Can’t say I’m much of a fan of the new site.

pick any thread that isn't locked, choose any post add to multiquote go back to where you want to post

Devils @ Leafs - March 23 - $200 for the pair.
PM me if interested.

just like that

 

[ACC1224]

What players would you ‘get who do’?

People too often act as though this stuff exists in a vacuum, that a GM can just go and pluck whatever talent exists. But they obviously cannot do that.

What people often ignore, is that players are not just their stat sheets. No GM exists in the head of their players. If Dubas could trade the entire team for the Lightning’s roster, let’s say. Do you do it? They have proven they are able to win.

Let’s say Dubas does that. He trades the entire maple leaf roster for the lightnings roster. Is that a good idea? Did Dubas do a good job? Since nothing has to do with the players and the idea is just to get guys who win, that sounds like the right thing to do.

Now what if that team doesn’t win the cup this year? Is that Dubas’ fault? He did exactly what you’re saying should end in the best result.

But what if in this hypothetical Florida won. Does that mean it’s the Florida GM who won the cup? Because he didn’t trade his roster for the Tampa roster? Is he the only GM who is good?

Or even worse, what if Tampa won with the Leafs old roster?

At some point the players need to actually do the thing. And no one is omniscient, no one can predict what’s going to happen. It doesn’t mean they’ve done a bad job. It doesn’t even mean it’s their fault.

If the Leafs win the whole damn thing this year, does that mean Dubas was only a good GM this year? And he was a bad gm all the other years?

What if Marner wins the conn Smyth? He’s good enough to do that. Does that make Dubas a clown for not trading him last year when he sucked? Or does it make him a genius for not trading him?

It’s like Dubas is both a moron and a genius at the same time, and until the players execute or don’t execute we don’t know which one he is.

It’s a really silly way to look at the team.

If you don’t feel the GM is accountable in how he builds the team, you’re welcome to it. Pretty whacked way to look at things in most peoples eyes. Just give him a life time contract and be done with it.

 

[ACC1224]

pick any thread that isn't locked, choose any post add to multiquote go back to where you want to post

just like that

Why not just reply in that thread?

 

[Strangle]

If you don’t feel the GM is accountable in how he builds the team, you’re welcome to it. Pretty whacked way to look at things in most peoples eyes. Just give him a life time contract and be done with it.

Of course the GM is accountable. That’s not what we are talking about here.

If you specifically have examples of what you would have done differently, hit me with it.

I happen to agree with the vast majority of Dubas’ decisions. What do you think he’s done that’s his fault? That’s holding the team back?

 

[therealkoho]

Why not just reply in that thread?

maybe the poster is one of those guys that isn't into de-railing threads, who knows?

 

[Dreakmur]

As much as I would like disagree with yih and most of your takes , I can’t .you are absolutely correct . I still think that our organization and franchise and management team is doing the best they can under the restraints of these times , and I think Dubas has done a terrific job as well .
But in professional sports and business it’s about at the very least “ moving the ball forward “ and in this case , we haven’t , he hasn’t , the players haven’t and coach .
This is a very very important playoff run or lack there of for the Leafs and Leafs Nation .
You are 100% on the mark !
Having said that , I wouldn’t judge it all on winning the cup this year , there’s a lot of real real great teams out there in contention, and we are one of them .but at the very very least , winning one round and looking great in doing so and being competitive and close to winning for the remainder .
After that another step ..
I’ve said it before ..,
After so many years of being A Leaf Nut …I just want a highly competitive team with great elite players , great stand up people in the community, you be of tgd best in terms of player development, a top notch leader in organizations in any sport around the world and to compete for the cup every year .
GFLG

Shanahan - first with Lou and Babcock, and now with Dubas and Keefe - has taken a horribly run franchise and turned it into one that seems to run pretty well. We’re drafting, scouting, and developing better. We’re managing assets better. We’re using our cash advantage to build a really nice program here.

That program they put together strikes me as one that is very proficient at making this team good, but may not be able to get them into the truly elite status. The competitiveness and accountability seems to be lacking for this to truly become an elite playoff team. The whole “safe space” that they have tried to create is counter productive when you step on the ice and your opponent wants to beat the crap out of you. There might really be something to the old saying that nice guys finish last.

 

[therealkoho]

Of course the GM is accountable. That’s not what we are talking about here.

If you specifically have examples of what you would have done differently, hit me with it.

I happen to agree with the vast majority of Dubas’ decisions. What do you think he’s done that’s his fault? That’s holding the team back?

well realistically seeing as you agree with the "vast majority" of what he's done so far, then obviously the fault lies with you my friend, because that's the way LeaFland rolls although you could actually use "roles" and you'd still be correct!

 

[57 Years No Cup]

These guys already have their excuses lined up yet again if the team fails yet again. I swear most of them were on board with firing Dubas if we lose in round 1 again earlier this year but now they've defaulted back to defending him no matter what.

Watching the Dubas Defense League scramble to defend him is quite amusing.

 

[Nylanderthal]

He doubled down on this group so if he fails again this year he needs to admit this isn’t work and move one of Marner or nylander. Most likely nylander.

Matthews isn’t getting traded and with Tavares NMC and cap hit I find it hard to trade him.

This is correct. This season is a referendum on the construction of the team with the supposed “core four” if they falter this post season I expect significant roster changes before I expect the management team to be dumped.
This Managment team isn’t perfect, but I’m pretty sure they get a chance to change it up before being shown the door.

 

[Strangle]

Watching the Dubas Defense League scramble to defend him is quite amusing.

What has he done wrong?

 

[fahad203]

So it’s never the players fault?? Lmfao

Ok you are right. Players should take some of the blame
Lets look at the players Kyle acquired and their playoff performance so far

Illya Mikaheyev. GP 12 0 points
Joe T 7. 1
Pierre Engval. 10. 1
Alex Kerfoot 12 9
Alex Galchynuk. 6 4 ( 3 of them came in 1 game, which I believe he gave up the puck in OT)
Nick Foligno 4 1
Reilly Nash 2 0
Tyson Barrie 5 0
Wayne Simmonds 7 1


That's 53 games.... and 17 points and vast majority of those points are Alex Kerfoot and Gally

So when you bring on the wrong players, you are responsible

Tampa won their stanly cups on the back of their bottom 6. Coleman, Cirelli, jhonson, Goudrow, Gourde and others
So bottom 6 does matter.

Everyone is like well he hit homerun with Bunting. That's more to do with Arizona being Arizona.
Lou and Babs also got Hyman

Kase has worked out but lets be honest, that's more to do with him being lucky that anything else.

Everyone knew Kase can play, problem is it with his health. Which is 50/50 even now

He has completely struck out on goaltending. Small sample we got from Campbell clearly shown us that's not who he is

 

[Nylanderthal]

Watching the Dubas Defense League scramble to defend him is quite amusing.

Yes scrambling to defend the constructor of a team that’s currently 5th overall, 5th inPK 1st in PP & face offs while receiving league worst goaltending from a tandem that should handily be mid-pack.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

What has he done wrong?

Kept the same overpaid top four forwards that have failed in the playoffs for the last 5 years, for starters.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Yes scrambling to defend the constructor of a team that’s currently 5th overall, 5th inPK 1st in PP & face offs while receiving league worst goaltending from a tandem that should handily be mid-pack.

Call me when the playoffs start. The regular season is meaningless.

 

[Strangle]

Ok you are right. Players should take some of the blame
Lets look at the players Kyle acquired and their playoff performance so far

Illya Mikaheyev. GP 12 0 points
Joe T 7. 1
Pierre Engval. 10. 1
Alex Kerfoot 12 9
Alex Galchynuk. 6 4 ( 3 of them came in 1 game, which I believe he gave up the puck in OT)
Nick Foligno 4 1
Reilly Nash 2 0
Tyson Barrie 5 0
Wayne Simmonds 7 1


That's 53 games.... and 17 points and vast majority of those points are Alex Kerfoot and Gally

So when you bring on the wrong players, you are responsible

Tampa won their stanly cups on the back of their bottom 6. Coleman, Cirelli, jhonson, Goudrow, Gourde and others
So bottom 6 does matter.

Okay, which players do you think Dubas should have brought in? And what should have gone out? And how would the cap management have to change in order to ‘bring in the right players’?

If all of:

Cobra
Engvall
Thornton
Kerfoot
Galchenyuk
Foligno
Nash
Barrie
Simmonds

Are bad …. Who is ‘good’? And what makes you think that your list would perform better than his group? Is it simply because they are different? Is that the only criteria you’re looking at?

“Oh, if these players were wrong, I mean it’s obvious that these ones are the right ones!”

In the famous words of Joe Biden, “come on, man….”

 

[Strangle]

Kept the same overpaid top four forwards that have failed in the playoffs for the last 5 years, for starters.

What do you propose? And what guarantee are you offering that your proposal would improve results?

 

[Nylanderthal]

Ok you are right. Players should take some of the blame
Lets look at the players Kyle acquired and their playoff performance so far

Illya Mikaheyev. GP 12 0 points
Joe T 7. 1
Pierre Engval. 10. 1
Alex Kerfoot 12 9
Alex Galchynuk. 6 4 ( 3 of them came in 1 game, which I believe he gave up the puck in OT)
Nick Foligno 4 1
Reilly Nash 2 0
Tyson Barrie 5 0
Wayne Simmonds 7 1


That's 53 games.... and 17 points and vast majority of those points are Alex Kerfoot and Gally

So when you bring on the wrong players, you are responsible

Tampa won their stanly cups on the back of their bottom 6. Coleman, Cirelli, jhonson, Goudrow, Gourde and others
So bottom 6 does matter.

Tampa doesn’t win a thing without Vasi being Vasi, and their stars (point kuch Hedman McDonough) being the guys carrying the mail.
We haven’t gotten that from our guys so the extra stuff from the bottom is irrelevant imo.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

What do you propose? And what guarantee are you offering that your proposal would improve results?

YAWN. Not falling for this tactic. I'm not the GM. The guy who is should use the resources available and do his job, and stop trying to be the players' "pal".

 

[Nylanderthal]

Call me when the playoffs start. The regular season is meaningless.

So then why are you here complaining?