Kyle Dubas discussion

[4thline]

If you want to pick out a couple terrible examples and run with them - knock yourself out.

2/4 from 2021
2/4 (NYI and Dallas) from 2020
1/4 (San Jose) 2019
1/4 Winnipeg 2018
1/4 Senators 2017

The playoffs are a shitshow and a grind. It's an exceptional year that doesn't have at least one "terrible example" of a mediocre team playing above its head about to implode playing in the final 4.

 

[Sypher04]

I guess it depends on whether you want a team that is well-balanced, can play a skill game with enough grit, and win a few rounds in the playoffs. Or an imbalanced team with lots of skill but very little bite, and consistently goes out in the 1st round.
Bottom line is every team/GM wants to win the Cup, and this is how they will ultimately be judged.
If the Leafs continue to play the way they did in these past 2 games, there is hope. Only time will tell.

What we want is all the same; the cup. The problem is you need a lot of things to work out for you, in addition to put yourself in the best position you can. Ultimately our personal desires though have no bearing on actually assessing Dubas’ work.

Dubas has made his fair share of bad moves. They are brought up ad nauseum here. We all know what they are. There a lot of other things he’s criticized for either doing or not doing that really aren’t what people characterize them at all

 

[fahad203]

That's partly true, but the rest of the roster is stronger as well with the important exception of goal.

There are only six players still with the team from that season -- the four you named plus Dermott and Holl -- and all of them are better now than they were then.

Almost every other player has been replaced with a better player, except for Kadri and both goaltenders.

It's tough to stay at or near the top, and for the most part I think so far, so good. However, that's a matter of opinion with which many others will rightly disagree.

Pre Kyle team was built around depth and definitely had the better roaster

Unfortunately that team faced two teams thay won stanly cups and been to Stanly Cup multiple times

Kyles team was handed the fortune key because of covid. Play in North Divison and play teams like Columbus and Montreal

I honestly dont know what the universe has to do or give you more for you to win one series

60 goal scorer. Check
Supporting cast of 3 20 goal scorers. Check

Decent Goalie. Check. With one good mobile D

Easy north division. Check
Easy opponents both vast majority at home. Check

Yet somehow we drop the ball

Game 5 we get shut out. Clincher game. We were the home team

Game 7 manage to get one goal. We were the home team


Kyle needed to fire Keefe front of the public and make him apologize. Thats my beef with him. Bloody softie nice guy

 

[ACC1224]

Keefe and the guy who replaced Quennville walked in to the the easiest coaching situations in league history. Using his record as some proof of his ability is beyond silly.

 

[4thline]

As long as ‘the direction’ is the correct one.
I know we’re optimistic it is but that’s really all we have at this point.

Yup. But seeing his ability to rectify mistakes, his eye for bargain talent, the state of prospect pool, and our ability to recruit and get buy in, I'm really liking the direction and long term health of the organization.

I've posted it before, but I'd rather be the team that is patient with an Yzerman/Brisebois combo going through some growing pains than the one that fires Armstrong right before his drafting and development starts to bear fruit.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Gotta love your take when 5th fastest to 100 wins >>>> 2 Gold medals and a Stanley Cup!

You or I could’ve coached those Olympic teams, literally just hold the gate open for line changes. All we have to directly compare is how they did with similar rosters, neither has had playoff performance yet but keefes teams look and play much more organized and have much better pp & pk stats which are one aspect a coach impacts the team than babcock’s ever did.
Keefe hasn’t been a coach long enough to amass the credentials required to be named an Olympic coach, but he’s well on his way and with a bit of luck (like babcock got with giggy in 03) he can ride that success to a long fruitful career.

 

[IPS]

2/4 from 2021
2/4 (NYI and Dallas) from 2020
1/4 (San Jose) 2019
1/4 Winnipeg 2018
1/4 Senators 2017

What exactly is this supposed to say?

How bout this for one: 4 teams have won 9/12 of the last Stanley Cup.

I get it that trying to make it out to be a "random shitshow" excuses Dubas' stunning lack of playoff success so far, but the evidence says there's a very clear and concise formua and Dubas ain't even close to figuring it out.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Keefe and the guy who replaced Quennville walked in to the the easiest coaching situations in league history. Using his record as some proof of his ability is beyond silly.

Keefe took over a team that was 9-10-4 on pace for 80 points and immediately led them to a 100+ pace over the balance of the year.
I’d say Scott bowman walking into pitts and then detroit we’re the easiest gigs going, but what do I know? Pitts only won the cup the year before and detroit was much like we are now a long time contender who had failed in playoff expectations

 

[4thline]

Keefe and the guy who replaced Quennville walked in to the the easiest coaching situations in league history. Using his record as some proof of his ability is beyond silly.

Eh, regaining a lost room and getting the most out of some pretty jaded stars isn't exactly a cakewalk.
But yeah, his GM has given him quite the team . Doesn't exactly have to spin gold from straw.

 

[fahad203]

Keefe and the guy who replaced Quennville walked in to the the easiest coaching situations in league history. Using his record as some proof of his ability is beyond silly.

I would argue though Andrew Brunette is a better coach. He was an assistant coach in NHL for 6 years and played in NHL for 10 years.

At least Andrew had assistant coaching and NHL coaching experince

 

[ACC1224]

Yup. But seeing his ability to rectify mistakes, his eye for bargain talent, the state of prospect pool, and our ability to recruit and get buy in, I'm really liking the direction and long term health of the organization.

I've posted it before, but I'd rather be the team that is patient with an Yzerman/Brisebois combo going through some growing pains than the one that fires Armstrong right before his drafting and development starts to bear fruit.

Fair enough and I don’t have as big an issue with Dubas as I once did, IMO he deserves more time. I have very little confidence that Keefe is the coach to take them anywhere though.

 

[4thline]

What exactly is this supposed to say?

How bout this for one: 4 teams have won 9/12 of the last Stanley Cup.

I get it that trying to make it out to be a "random shitshow" excuses Dubas' stunning lack of playoff success so far, but the evidence says there's a very clear and concise formua and Dubas ain't even close to figuring it out.

All of those teams made the final 4. Glorious playoff success! Well run organizations clearly on the upswing! Great GMing! (Not)

 

[Sypher04]

Pre Kyle team was built around depth and definitely had the better roaster

Unfortunately that team faced two teams thay won stanly cups and been to Stanly Cup multiple times

Kyles team was handed the fortune key because of covid. Play in North Divison and play teams like Columbus and Montreal

I honestly dont know what the universe has to do or give you more for you to win one series

60 goal scorer. Check
Supporting cast of 3 20 goal scorers. Check

Decent Goalie. Check. With one good mobile D

Easy north division. Check
Easy opponents both vast majority at home. Check

Yet somehow we drop the ball

Game 5 we get shut out. Clincher game. We were the home team

Game 7 manage to get one goal. We were the home team


Kyle needed to fire Keefe front of the public and make him apologize. Thats my beef with him. Bloody softie nice guy

Dubas didn’t have the benefit of his 3 best forwards being on ELCs and has dramatically improved the defense since Lou left. Some offense depth was sacrificed to accomplish that, but we also have a legitimate shutdown third line behind our excellent top 6, which is arguably a good trade off

 

[Nylanderthal]

Eh, regaining a lost room and getting the most out of some pretty jaded stars isn't exactly a cakewalk.
But yeah, his GM has given him quite the team . Doesn't exactly have to spin gold from straw.

Handed a team with a top 6 of
Reilly-hainsey
Gardener-Zaitsev
Borgman-Polak along with boat anchor Marleau and a bunch of mid quality ufas to replace. The team wasn’t in as good a spot as we all make it out to be a few years later.
Not to mention the fact he didn’t benefit from having three stars on ELC deals. It’s easy to built depth with that situation.

 

[ACC1224]

Eh, regaining a lost room and getting the most out of some pretty jaded stars isn't exactly a cakewalk.
But yeah, his GM has given him quite the team . Doesn't exactly have to spin gold from straw.

I think any new voice would have been accepted quite easily by the team. Players don’t mind being directed, they have been their entire lives.
Babcock was an ass.

 

[Dreakmur]

I just don’t agree, I think that the talent on this team is enough to win the cup. It’s just that the players need to learn how to play in the playoffs and become mentally tough enough to win.

It’s more of a process than a checklist that a GM needs to complete which automatically leads to a cup.

100% it’s a process and a huge part of that process is figuring out which players have what intangibles.

I agree that you don’t just dump Marner after his fails in the playoffs. You work with him to resolve the issue… but some players just can’t deal with it, and if he’s one of those, Dubas has to identify that and move him out.

Some players just know how to win. Other players can learn how to win. Some can’t learn, and others are just unwilling the make the necessary sacrifices. The GMs job is figure out where each player lands and move forward accordingly.

 

[ACC1224]

I would argue though Andrew Brunette is a better coach. He was an assistant coach in NHL for 6 years and played in NHL for 10 years.

At least Andrew had assistant coaching and NHL coaching experince

I was just pointing out the situations that they walked into. These weren’t garbage rosters needing change.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Keefe took over a team that was 9-10-4 on pace for 80 points and immediately led them to a 100+ pace over the balance of the year.
I’d say Scott bowman walking into pitts and then detroit we’re the easiest gigs going, but what do I know? Pitts only won the cup the year before and detroit was much like we are now a long time contender who had failed in playoff expectations

Small sample size.

 

[fahad203]

Keefe took over a team that was 9-10-4 on pace for 80 points and immediately led them to a 100+ pace over the balance of the year.
I’d say Scott bowman walking into pitts and then detroit we’re the easiest gigsgoing, but what do I know? Pitts only won the cup the year before and detroit was much like we are now a long time contender who had failed in playoff expectations

First of all. 9-10-4 about 23 games. There 60 more games to be played
Its not like leafs were at the bottom mid point. A lot of teams start slow

Scott Bowman was replacing Bob Jhonson who passed away and they repeated as champs

He was already player devlopment

He left then for a choke team in Detroit. Turned them into a dynasty

Thats why you go with someone who knows how to win. Not someone who looks good

 

[Nylanderthal]

Small sample size.

What was? Babcocks last year? Yea, let’s throwaway a season completely. He had lost the room and the grift was up.

 

[IPS]

Because I can already forecast excuse making, what they are best at, coming through the organization that they ran into a juggernaut TBL or FLA in the first round. While ignoring they lost to weaker teams like MTL & CLB.

Judging from this thread that seems like a real accurate forecast.

 

[Nylanderthal]

First of all. 9-10-4 about 23 games. There 60 more games to be played
Its not like leafs were at the bottom mid point. A lot of teams start slow

Scott Bowman was replacing Bob Jhonson who passed away

He was already player devlopment

He left then for a choke team in Detroit. Turned them into a dynasty

Thats why you go with someone who knows how to win.

So he walked into an already made cup winner, gotcha

 

[Strangle]

100% it’s a process and a huge part of that process is figuring out which players have what intangibles.

I agree that you don’t just dump Marner after his fails in the playoffs. You work with him to resolve the issue… but some players just can’t deal with it, and if he’s one of those, Dubas has to identify that and move him out.

Some players just know how to win. Other players can learn how to win. Some can’t learn, and others are just unwilling the make the necessary sacrifices. The GMs job is figure out where each player lands and move forward accordingly.

And what job do the players have, once the GM has made his decisions?

 

[fahad203]

And what job do the players have, once the GM has made his decisions?

Then its no longer GM. Its the coaching staff

Which ironically the GM assembled

 

[All Mod Cons]

What was? Babcocks last year? Yea, let’s throwaway a season completely. He had lost the room and the grift was up.

Yes. Small sample size. Nothing can be garnered from small sample sizes. It's written on these boards all of the time.