Kyle Dubas discussion

[Dreakmur]

I think he has been good especially compared to some teams GM, he's been above average for sure.

The organization has come a long way since Shanahan took over. The same ideas that made those improvements also brought in Dubas. Obviously, I disagree with a few things, but they finally figured out how to use their financial power to create an edge for themselves.

I'm not sure how much has actually been Dubas himself, or if it's been the results of the machine Shanahan constructed.

 

[deprw]

The organization has come a long way since Shanahan took over. The same ideas that made those improvements also brought in Dubas. Obviously, I disagree with a few things, but they finally figured out how to use their financial power to create an edge for themselves.

I'm not sure how much has actually been Dubas himself, or if it's been the results of the machine Shanahan constructed.

Well in overall I think this organization is in best shape ever and team on the ice is best yet assembled I've ever seen during my time following the team. Since 1994. We have problems with goaltending and we haven't drafted enough goaltenders. That something we have to improve in overall.

I know we don't get the results we all want, but I think direction is definitely been to the better. It haven't been perfect and playoff success is big stain, but I think the goal in every aspect of life should be small improvements and then longevity is key to success.

We lack progress but the overall goal should be the cup and we haven't compromised that to gain short term advantage. We have used draft capital, but haven't send away any young core players or top prospects. Still we have built good prospect pool.

 

[deprw]

I think he has been good especially compared to some teams GM, he's been above average for sure.

He would land assistant GM job in no time and good then get promotion to GM, if he succeed. He did it here and is more experienced now. I can see him in Colorado as assistant to Sakic before getting to be main guy under Sakic as president of hockey operations. Though Avalanche might go trough some sort of GM change, if they don't succeed in the future.

Also Dubas would like to take a break for a year and sought after GM job without going trough assistant GM.

We lack playoff success, but if you look our organization that is in good shape and Dubas have done good job with it.

 

[deprw]

Yes. Answer that question like Tort's would have, I'd be cool with that.

Problem with that is the league. Bettman and NHL don't approve that and you will get punished. Not directly, but with this shady officiating way of doing things.

Culture is skewed. Refs aren't held accountable and I don't mean teams should do it. League should and conversation should be open. Not Formula1 or European football way, where teams try to affect officiating.

Babcock made public comments on Kadri not drawing any penalties and it went way way worse with officiating. Same with Wideman crashing into referee and then next few months whole Flames team felt the consequences. That is middle age way of conducting business.

I'm pretty sure Shanahan and Dubas are working behind closed doors, but it's fine line to discuss in public at the moment. I think this is legacy of people like Colin Campbell.

 

[ACC1224]

Obviously Mrazek would be gone, but Campbell would be the #1 guy still, unless Fluery gets crazy hot. MIN are only using him as a backup.

Maybe, I don’t believe so but we’ll never know.

 

[Captain14]

Problem with that is the league. Bettman and NHL don't approve that and you will get punished. Not directly, but with this shady officiating way of doing things.

Culture is skewed. Refs aren't held accountable and I don't mean teams should do it. League should and conversation should be open. Not Formula1 or European football way, where teams try to affect officiating.

Babcock made public comments on Kadri not drawing any penalties and it went way way worse with officiating. Same with Wideman crashing into referee and then next few months whole Flames team felt the consequences. That is middle age way of conducting business.

I'm pretty sure Shanahan and Dubas are working behind closed doors, but it's fine line to discuss in public at the moment. I think this is legacy of people like Colin Campbell.

I agree with you and was half joking on the Torts reply. The entire system is corrupt and it’s time this starts getting massive media attention!
I often wonder what type of impact all of this legalized sports gambling is having on attempting to influence the outcome of games?

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

Just heard on TSN radio that Kyle Davidson addressed the "leak" at the GM meetings and either apologized or owned up to it and let it known it won't happen again.

Not sure how this has turned into such a big thing on this board to fault Dubas but hopefully this can squash it a bit.

 

[ToneDog]

Just heard on TSN radio that Kyle Davidson addressed the "leak" at the GM meetings and either apologized or owned up to it and let it known it won't happen again.

Not sure how this has turned into such a big thing on this board to fault Dubas but hopefully this can squash it a bit.

It was never Dubas' fault. Some just took advantage to call him a cry baby. He should have addressed it behind closed doors as Wil Smith should have. LOL.

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

It was never Dubas' fault. Some just took advantage to call him a cry baby. He should have addressed it behind closed doors as Wil Smith should have. LOL.

haha well played!

 

[Legion34]

Playoff success is usually the measuring stick of GM's but most of this fanbase seems to have switched over to playoff success just being mostly luck and goaltending.

How long have you watched hockey? It has always been mostly luck and goaltending. There was a skit on TSN where the “insiders” got beat in predictions of series by a literal monkey.

The blues won the cup with a 5th string goalie who played for the bruins team because he was so bad they didn’t have room in their own system.

The pens rode a rookie back to back who can’t stop a beachball in ottawa.

The caps were a post away from going down 3-0 in a series.

Hockey is mostly luck and goaltending. Any team can go on streaks. Injuries bounces and goalie streaks have always been a part of it.

This isn’t new

 

[freshwind]

How long have you watched hockey? It has always been mostly luck and goaltending. There was a skit on TSN where the “insiders” got beat in predictions of series by a literal monkey.

The blues won the cup with a 5th string goalie who played for the bruins team because he was so bad they didn’t have room in their own system.

The pens rode a rookie back to back who can’t stop a beachball in ottawa.

The caps were a post away from going down 3-0 in a series.

Hockey is mostly luck and goaltending. Any team can go on streaks. Injuries bounces and goalie streaks have always been a part of it.

This isn’t new

i agree, and would add health to it ... luck, health and goaltending
also, a key is to have a short series in the 1st 2nd round to be able to rest up a little bit

 

[Dough72]

How long have you watched hockey? It has always been mostly luck and goaltending. There was a skit on TSN where the “insiders” got beat in predictions of series by a literal monkey.

The blues won the cup with a 5th string goalie who played for the bruins team because he was so bad they didn’t have room in their own system.

The pens rode a rookie back to back who can’t stop a beachball in ottawa.

The caps were a post away from going down 3-0 in a series.

Hockey is mostly luck and goaltending. Any team can go on streaks. Injuries bounces and goalie streaks have always been a part of it.

This isn’t new

there is obviously luck involved but 5 years in a row? That's not just bad luck. And it's not just luck a team built like the Islanders with far less talent than Dubas inherited keeps winning playoff series after playoff series. Or Tampa keeps winning cups. Their gms deserve tons of credit for what they did, ours not so much.

 

[Legion34]

i agree, and would add health to it ... luck, health and goaltending
also, a key is to have a short series in the 1st 2nd round to be able to rest up a little bit

Every team and almost every player goes through streaks.

The isles got to the final 4 twice and lost like 15 games in a row both seasons.

The habs wouldn’t have been in the playoffs and beat the penguins. Price was Freddie like last year all the way up to the playoffs.

Any team can beat any team with the right bounces. Health and hot goaltending. That’s why players and teams all say just get in. This has always been the case. Especially in the cap era

Why people think this is news is beyond me

 

[kb]

Weird that people keep trying to blame 5 years of first round exits on a GM who has only been in charge for 3, and didn't trade consecutive 2nd round picks on 4th line centres.

 

[hotpaws]

Weird that people keep trying to blame 5 years of first round exits on a GM who has only been in charge for 3, and didn't trade consecutive 2nd round picks on 4th line centres.

yea he just traded a 1st plus plus on a cooked 4th line winger , lol

 

[Legion34]

there is obviously luck involved but 5 years in a row? That's not just bad luck. And it's not just luck a team built like the Islanders with far less talent than Dubas inherited keeps winning playoff series after playoff series. Or Tampa keeps winning cups. Their gms deserve tons of credit for what they did, ours not so much.

The islanders aren’t even in. They wouldn’t have made it the bubble year. They had lost like 15 in a row.

They got destroyed by Pitt and jarry literally scored on himself. Rask couldn’t stand and had an injury that forced retirement.

They were not “just” lucky. They played hard. They competed well when it mattered. But if they faced any competent or healthy goalies they wouldn’t have made it. It wouldn’t change how hard they fought but it would change your perspective.

It’s not “just” luck. But luck absolutely has a bigger role than people think.

Almost Every year a bad team makes the finals. There are multiple upsets. How does that happen?

 

[fahad203]

Every team and almost every player goes through streaks.

The isles got to the final 4 twice and lost like 15 games in a row both seasons.

The habs wouldn’t have been in the playoffs and beat the penguins. Price was Freddie like last year all the way up to the playoffs.

Any team can beat any team with the right bounces. Health and hot goaltending. That’s why players and teams all say just get in. This has always been the case. Especially in the cap era

Why people think this is news is beyond me

You can't win in baseball without pitchers and you can't win in NHL without goaltending. By drafting or acquiring the right goalie, you are creating your own luck

Hank took the rangers to the finals
Quick was the reason why LA was even in playoff hunt let alone win
Vasi is Vasi
Price is Price
Rask was top 5 goalie when he was healthy adn took Boston to 2 finals. Tim thomas was godly


Easiest way to create luck in this league is to get a goalie.

Sometimes cure is worse than the disease. Freddy had to go, but his replacement couldn't have been someone who has never been a starter or one other guy who has consistency all his life

Same with our coach. Babcock had to go. But you can't hire a young coach just because it worked for Tampa
It also didn't work for Edmonton

Those to mistakes in my opinion, overshadow all the great work Dubas has done

 

[Legion34]

You can't win in baseball without pitchers and you can't win in NHL without goaltending. By drafting or acquiring the right goalie, you are creating your own luck

Hank took the rangers to the finals
Quick was the reason why LA was even in playoff hunt let alone win
Vasi is Vasi
Price is Price
Rask was top 5 goalie when he was healthy adn took Boston to 2 finals. Tim thomas was godly


Easiest way to create luck in this league is to get a goalie.

Sometimes cure is worse than the disease. Freddy had to go, but his replacement couldn't have been someone who has never been a starter or one other guy who has consistency all his life

Same with our coach. Babcock had to go. But you can't hire a young coach just because it worked for Tampa
It also didn't work for Edmonton

Those to mistakes in my opinion, overshadow all the great work Dubas has done

Sure. I didn’t like the mrazek signing myself. But we are betting on Campbell.

I don’t disagree that goaltending is huge. But the main goalies don’t often win.

Vasi is vasi. Sure
But binnington? They want to dump him
Murray? Passed through waivers
Holtby? He was the backup to grubauer and got bought out 2 years later
Corey Crawford and whoever?
Martin Jones went on a run to the final 4
Mrazek made the final 4
Thomas was a 10th round er who played in Finland till he was like 30.


Goaltending is massively important. But the idea that anyone can really predict outside of a few guys is silly.

The combined cup wins of price. Helly. Gibson. Henrik. Price. Rinne is 0

Heck who were the vezina finalists last year. Fleury was traded for nothing and gru looks like a buyout.

Goaltending is fickle. The reality is there is only so much we can do other than hope.

 

[notbias]

He would land assistant GM job in no time and good then get promotion to GM, if he succeed. He did it here and is more experienced now. I can see him in Colorado as assistant to Sakic before getting to be main guy under Sakic as president of hockey operations. Though Avalanche might go trough some sort of GM change, if they don't succeed in the future.

Also Dubas would like to take a break for a year and sought after GM job without going trough assistant GM.

We lack playoff success, but if you look our organization that is in good shape and Dubas have done good job with it.

Assistant to Sakic...

"We lack playoff success"

Don't understand the Sakic love.

He's lucked out on the development of players relative to contracts, would have loved some of our guys to break out after signing their contracts, and he still has only ever reached the second round.

 

[AvroArrow]

Don't think this deserves it's own thread but for a team like us even 1M free is HUGE.

 

[Ciao]

You can't win in baseball without pitchers and you can't win in NHL without goaltending. By drafting or acquiring the right goalie, you are creating your own luck

Hank took the rangers to the finals
Quick was the reason why LA was even in playoff hunt let alone win
Vasi is Vasi
Price is Price
Rask was top 5 goalie when he was healthy adn took Boston to 2 finals. Tim thomas was godly


Easiest way to create luck in this league is to get a goalie.

Sometimes cure is worse than the disease. Freddy had to go, but his replacement couldn't have been someone who has never been a starter or one other guy who has consistency all his life

Same with our coach. Babcock had to go. But you can't hire a young coach just because it worked for Tampa
It also didn't work for Edmonton

Those to mistakes in my opinion, overshadow all the great work Dubas has done

I disagree with the bolded, italicized statements.

That line of thought is one of the reasons the Leafs over a very long period of time did not develop their own talent, and constantly looked to acquire players, coaches and managers who were past their prime and had already spent their best years elsewhere.

I would much prefer the Leafs find and develop their own talent throughout the organization.

 

[GoonieFace]

Sure. I didn’t like the mrazek signing myself. But we are betting on Campbell.

I don’t disagree that goaltending is huge. But the main goalies don’t often win.

Vasi is vasi. Sure
But binnington? They want to dump him
Murray? Passed through waivers
Holtby? He was the backup to grubauer and got bought out 2 years later
Corey Crawford and whoever?
Martin Jones went on a run to the final 4
Mrazek made the final 4
Thomas was a 10th round er who played in Finland till he was like 30.


Goaltending is massively important. But the idea that anyone can really predict outside of a few guys is silly.

The combined cup wins of price. Helly. Gibson. Henrik. Price. Rinne is 0

Heck who were the vezina finalists last year. Fleury was traded for nothing and gru looks like a buyout.

Goaltending is fickle. The reality is there is only so much we can do other than hope.

Hockey is the one sport that is more dependent on luck, especially in the playoffs. This is why it is so hard to predict winners, very rarely goes on script.

 

[Dough72]

The islanders aren’t even in. They wouldn’t have made it the bubble year. They had lost like 15 in a row.

They got destroyed by Pitt and jarry literally scored on himself. Rask couldn’t stand and had an injury that forced retirement.

They were not “just” lucky. They played hard. They competed well when it mattered. But if they faced any competent or healthy goalies they wouldn’t have made it. It wouldn’t change how hard they fought but it would change your perspective.

It’s not “just” luck. But luck absolutely has a bigger role than people think.

Almost Every year a bad team makes the finals. There are multiple upsets. How does that happen?

the Islanders did it 2 years in a row though. Two years in a row they were 1 win away from the Stanley Cup Finals. It's not luck when it keeps happening and it's pretty obvious their gm understands what works in the playoffs. If Dubas accomplished that would it be nothing but luck? Nothing worth praising him for?

 

[deltamachine]

The organization has come a long way since Shanahan took over. The same ideas that made those improvements also brought in Dubas. Obviously, I disagree with a few things, but they finally figured out how to use their financial power to create an edge for themselves.

I'm not sure how much has actually been Dubas himself, or if it's been the results of the machine Shanahan constructed.

I'd say that you would have to go one step back to Tim Leiweke as the start or whoever hired him. After he took over, all 3 franchises made huge strides in direction and competitiveness - Masai, Shanahan, toronto FC.

 

[Nylanderthal]

there is obviously luck involved but 5 years in a row? That's not just bad luck. And it's not just luck a team built like the Islanders with far less talent than Dubas inherited keeps winning playoff series after playoff series. Or Tampa keeps winning cups. Their gms deserve tons of credit for what they did, ours not so much.

Well the first three years they were the decided underdog matching up against an experienced cup contender all three times. And the first two weren’t even under Kyle’s stewardship. Summer bubble is what it is, should’ve won, lots of good teams should’ve won and were out quick. Not to mention Columbus and the leafs were tied.
Last year is the ONE that you can hang on them and say there’s reasonable expectations to be better next time.
The GM isn’t on the ice executing or not. He put the pieces in place to succeed, they just failed to capitalize. The issue becomes do you keep rolling with 23-24-25 year old kids banking on them getting it, or do you sacrifice one or more for shorter term success?
I’m glad the people actually in charge aren’t as reactionary as most around here, including myself at times tbh.