Kyle Dubas discussion

[DueDiligence]

The Leafs roster is much stronger now than it was when Dubas took over. That much is better.

The season isn't over, and playoffs haven't even begun. I don't know how you would compare this season to the 2017-18 season, unless you want to pre-judge this year's results.

The reason the Leafs look stronger is that Matthews, Marner and Nylander have come into their prime. They are carrying the team. Rielly is still the best Dman and the Leafs are weaker in goal.

 

[IPS]

Playoff success is usually the measuring stick of GM's but most of this fanbase seems to have switched over to playoff success just being mostly luck and goaltending.

 

[Strangle]

That’s a bit of an exaggeration, but at least you’re starting to get it.

I just don’t agree, I think that the talent on this team is enough to win the cup. It’s just that the players need to learn how to play in the playoffs and become mentally tough enough to win.

It’s more of a process than a checklist that a GM needs to complete which automatically leads to a cup.

 

[fahad203]

Playoff success is usually the measuring stick of GM's but most of this fanbase seems to have switched over to playoff success just being mostly luck and goaltending.

Luck was on our side. When you are matched up against Columbus and Montreal, you should be considered lucky

But that guy Keefe... you can have a ferrari but if you are not a good driver doesnt matter

And keefe is because of Dubas

 

[4thline]

Playoff success is usually the measuring stick of GM's but most of this fanbase seems to have switched over to playoff success just being mostly luck and goaltending.

It's an indicator, but on it's own its not very good. It would lead to believe that LouLam and Bergevin were doing a good job. GM is a long term gig.

 

[fahad203]

It's an indicator, but on it's own its not very good. It would lead to believe that LouLam and Bergevin were doing a good job.

Hard to say otherwise

I mean lous team played 41 playoff games last 2 years and Bergy did go to the finals

 

[4thline]

Hard to say otherwise

I mean lous team played 41 playoff games last year and Bergy did go to the finals

And yet, they lead their orgs right off the edge of a cliff, one doesn't have a job and the other only does because of his name.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Hmm you managed to the overtly negative spin or are just wrong on almost every single point. Way to be an overachiever.

I guess it depends on whether you want a team that is well-balanced, can play a skill game with enough grit, and win a few rounds in the playoffs. Or an imbalanced team with lots of skill but very little bite, and consistently goes out in the 1st round.
Bottom line is every team/GM wants to win the Cup, and this is how they will ultimately be judged.
If the Leafs continue to play the way they did in these past 2 games, there is hope. Only time will tell.

 

[IPS]

It's an indicator, but on it's own its not very good. It would lead to believe that LouLam and Bergevin were doing a good job. GM is a long term gig.

Lmao "an indicator."

 

[4thline]

Lmao "an indicator."

So Bergevin was a great GM and the Habs organization is healthy and set for continued success?

 

[fahad203]

And yet, they lead their orgs right off the edge of a cliff.

Ill take 41 playoff games for few bad seasons

If you say leafs will go to the finals. Ill sacrafice next 5 years

Ill take one glorious years than year in year out mediocrity

I think you are not old enough to know what playoff wins feels like.

Let me tell you. Its awesome

 

[IPS]

So Bergevin was a great GM and the Habs organization is healthy and set for continued success?

If you want to pick out a couple terrible examples and run with them - knock yourself out.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Luck was on our side. When you are matched up against Columbus and Montreal, you should be considered lucky

But that guy Keefe... you can have a ferrari but if you are not a good driver doesnt matter

And keefe is because of Dubas

Gotta say this is such nonsense. Sheldon’s the 5th fastest EVER to 100 wins. Not just fastest leaf coach ever.
He’s a quality HC and 10x the coach that leather face babcock was. Talk about a grifter. Babcock was the master grifter. Milked 50 sheets from mlse and got two gold medals and cup ring cuz giguere stood on his head one spring in 2003

 

[The Podium]

you seem to be doing the same thing. btw, you can't deny my argument for excuse making because you know that's exactly what they will do but you choose to ignore it

How could I know that? The games haven’t been played yet. They certainly can still win their playoff series or more.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Ill take 41 playoff games for few bad seasons

If you say leafs will go to the finals. Ill sacrafice next 5 years

Ill take one glorious years than year in year out mediocrity

I think you are not old enough to know what playoff wins feels like.

Let me tell you. Its awesome

You’ll take a final four pounding then what we just went through as opposed to seeing this process through? Maybe you can find a discounted fisherman islanders jersey at a store on Yonge st.
Playoff wins mean shit in the end unless you get all 16 of them.

 

[Strangle]

My personal opinion is that Dubas believed the league when they said they would call a cleaner game, so he built the team for that theoretical league.

But he got bamboozled

 

[kevsh]

Everything will be forgiven if the leafs can win a playoff round.

If at the conclusion of their first regular season post-Matthews draft if someone with a crystal ball told me that over the next 6 playoffs this team gets no farther than the second round I'd consider it a huge disappointment. So for me, simply winning a round this year isn't good enough, especially considering the futures they've given up and the fact they've been at the cap ceiling for several seasons now.

Everyone's gotten paid, they haven't delivered at all. So I think it's fair to expect a Conference Final appearance or better, which I see as highly doubtful considering the issues they face (shaky goaltending, still need experience on the blueline, the highly troubling pattern of blown leads, etc.) and the mental hurdles they have to get over considering their past failures.

It doesn't appear there are any game-changing deadline acquisitions easily available so the team we see now is likely very close to the team the Leafs will go into the playoffs with, for better or worse. Then in the Summer, assuming anything less than a deep playoff run and if Dubas is still here hopefully he'll finally get past his forward fetish and prioritize a big upgrade on the blueline, even if it means moving someone he has insisted he didn't need to to get it done.

Btw, as pessimistic as I sound, I sincerely hope this team proves me wrong.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Kyle is one of the nicest guys in sports, at least from the outside looking in.

Can't let him being a tremendous person blind to the fact his team has won zero playoff rounds and created what seems to be a soft passionless group on the verge of another first round failure, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that.

Love his creativity and ability to find guys like Kase and Bunting. Those are the types that help you win when it matters, although Kase's body is not fit for the long haul. Don't recall a player who seemed as fragile.

Hate him trapping himself when it comes to money where he has to pay resources to get out from under bad moves IE: Ritchie But, love that he didn't just pretend things were okay with Slick Nick and sent him away. Always nice when a GM acknowledges a mistake, and that it was, and a costly one. Nice that he didn't just have to Marleau this one and got back an asset who appears to be a serviceable Dman in Lyubushkin.

Don't like his penchant for finding washed guys like Thornton, Simmonds, Spezza, etc. and consider that fixing the toughness/grit/maturity issue.

Hated the naming of JT as "C". A guy who was brought in via FA becomes the appointed leader as an outsider instead of promoting from within, if you will. Perhaps, Matthews was the pick but his Arizona summer troubles nixed that, I don't know, but JT should've never been named captain. I think that set this team back.

Hate his willingness or need to burn picks. A GM who does this as routinely as Kyle better get results. He has not to this point.

Love his care and compassion for injured players. The injury to Cobra in NJ really stands out to me.

Hate his philosophizing and self-validation of paying 4 forwards 40 million when it has failed over and over. Think he's brutal at doing long term deals with players giving wrong terms and bloated cap numbers.

Love his belief in what he's doing, as misguided as I think his approach has been. He has tweaked his philosophy while not abandoning it. I appreciate his willingness to try new things when he fails.

Wish he prioritized intangibles more than he does. He is a cold sterile analytical type. There is value there but hockey like all sports is a human game. I wish he'd paid more attention to that from the beginning. Don't believe the player-friendly culture is conducive to on-ice success but is a draw for FAs. Many guys want to come here to be passengers at ends of careers. He encourages that.

Not a fan of the very child-like ways he deals with his players when speaking of them in the media as to handling them as if they're extremely mentally brittle. I would swear he's managing peewees when he speaks sometimes. Would prefer he was bolder as to being about winning and not put so much focus on things that don't have to do with that.

Not a fan of his addiction to Soo connections. Every GM has their guys but he seems to pump a lot of water from that old well.

I know I was deathly curious when he took over if his philosophies would translate to winning. I think he found they don't and as mentioned above has at least been willing to tweak them somewhat.

Applaud him for moving on from Babcock and bringing in the guy he thinks represents his philosophy on and off the ice.

Wish he'd tweak his philosophy on paying 4 forwards 40 million and ship one out. He doesn't seem to have the stones to do that tough thing that needs to be done. He'd rather grind away on the periphery than get to the net so to speak and realize too much cap is in 4 guys and as much as you love your players, that model is just not a good one for winning Cups.

Overall, I love the guy, personally. He's a great representative from a PR standpoint. I wish he was equal in pushing hard to win it all and came off that way through more accountability. I don't believe he runs a tight ship as to promoting a sold out for winning culture and should be managing younger players and not men.

A great post! Looking at both his positives and negative.

 

[4thline]

Ill take 41 playoff games for few bad seasons

If you say leafs will go to the finals. Ill sacrafice next 5 years

Ill take one glorious years than year in year out mediocrity

I think you are not old enough to know what playoff wins feels like.

Let me tell you. Its awesome

I remember the Quinn years. It's so so sad that "playoff wins" are seen as "glorious." Aim higher, have the patience to stay the course.
I'm glad this losing attitude has no influence over the direction of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

 

[IPS]

You’ll take a final four pounding then what we just went through as opposed to seeing this process through? Maybe you can find a discounted fisherman islanders jersey at a store on Yonge st.
Playoff wins mean shit in the end unless you get all 16 of them.

What a fantastic way of normalizing the Leafs' lack of playoff success.

 

[All Mod Cons]

The GMs language of process and program has now fully infiltrated the fanbase.

 

[Ciao]

The reason the Leafs look stronger is that Matthews, Marner and Nylander have come into their prime. They are carrying the team. Rielly is still the best Dman and the Leafs are weaker in goal.

That's partly true, but the rest of the roster is stronger as well with the important exception of goal.

There are only six players still with the team from that season -- the four you named plus Dermott and Holl -- and all of them are better now than they were then.

Almost every other player has been replaced with a better player, except for Kadri and both goaltenders.

It's tough to stay at or near the top, and for the most part I think so far, so good. However, that's a matter of opinion with which many others will rightly disagree.

 

[DueDiligence]

Gotta say this is such nonsense. Sheldon’s the 5th fastest EVER to 100 wins. Not just fastest leaf coach ever.
He’s a quality HC and 10x the coach that leather face babcock was. Talk about a grifter. Babcock was the master grifter. Milked 50 sheets from mlse and got two gold medals and cup ring cuz giguere stood on his head one spring in 2003

Gotta love your take when 5th fastest to 100 wins >>>> 2 Gold medals and a Stanley Cup!

 

[Nylanderthal]

What a fantastic way of normalizing the Leafs' lack of playoff success.

Yes, we should strive for second round or third round failures, not build a team that can win 4 rounds.
This team as with all teams will only go as far as their best players will carry them. The islanders went as far as their best players could take them, our talent should be able to lead a team farther. Complaining about “lack of grit” or a better 5th D man ultimately isn’t going to matter if Matthews Marner Nylander and Tavares don’t produce.

 

[ACC1224]

I remember the Quinn years. It's so so sad that "playoff wins" are seen as "glorious." Aim higher, have the patience to stay the course.
I'm glad this losing attitude has no influence over the direction of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

As long as ‘the direction’ is the correct one.
I know we’re optimistic it is but that’s really all we have at this point.