Kyle Dubas discussion

[CabanaBoy5]

There is one key difference going into the playoffs from previous years. The Leafs have the best special teams in the league. No. 1 on the powerplay, No. 5 in penalty killing. This bodes well given the limited chances teams will have in the playoffs. If Dubas can add a defenceman, and we continue to get average goaltending, I think the chances of advancing in the playoffs will be good. Then, Dubas will be given credit for some of the additions he's made (Bunting, Bush, Kase, Kampf, etc)

 

[The Podium]

There is one key difference going into the playoffs from previous years. The Leafs have the best special teams in the league. No. 1 on the powerplay, No. 5 in penalty killing. This bodes well given the limited chances teams will have in the playoffs. If Dubas can add a defenceman, and we continue to get average goaltending, I think the chances of advancing in the playoffs will be good. Then, Dubas will be given credit for some of the additions he's made (Bunting, Bush, Kase, Kampf, etc)

It’s actually a myth that there are less special team involvement in the playoffs. The average number of PPs in the playoffs are actually higher, but with a higher tempo of play there are fewer calls per infraction.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

It’s actually a myth that there are less special team involvement in the playoffs. The average number of PPs in the playoffs are actually higher, but with a higher tempo of play there are fewer calls per infraction.

Even better, our quality special teams will have more impact on games if there are more opportunities. I remember the Bruins' perfection line being a key factor in us losing a few years ago.

 

[ACC1224]

Even better, our quality special teams will have more impact on games if there are more opportunities. I remember the Bruins' perfection line being a key factor in us losing a few years ago.

As well as the Leafs PP being ice cold against the Habs.

 

[LeafGrief]

Any team could point to their weak spot and say imagine if this was better but it doesn't work that way. Dubas is responsible for 100% of this team and that includes the goaltending as it does most of the core who were in place before he took over.

The team is exactly where it was years go, most likely heading for a 5-7th overall finish and most likely heading for a 6th consecutive 1st round playoff exit.



Agree with all this, Bunting especially was a fantastic signing.



This team was so stacked with talent when Dubas took over that it would have to be a truly terrible GM for us not to be a top team (assuming 5-7th overall and always losing in the playoffs is a "top team").

As far as the pink slip if we don't win, I'm on the fence. I like most of the moves Dubas has made but it's possible that the one move he has refused to make (trading a high priced core piece to better balance the team) has doomed us to failure. But let's wait and see what happens, I wanted to see what we could get for Marner last summer and I assume the return would have been huge, and we might have been a better team for it today. But who knows, if we finally have playoff success and Marner finally kills it in the playoffs and helps lead the way I just might be happy that we didn't move him. But if we fail miserably again, if we go to game 7 and lose 5-1 or whatever like we usually do and Marner has another mediocre 5 points in 7 games or WE playoffs, then it will appear that moving him last summer would have been best.

We'll see what happens.

The way that I see the Leafs, their single biggest problem is their mental weakness in the playoffs. Marner is the main culprit and the focal point or my ire, but the team has been a complete and utter disaster in deciding games for the last three years. Top to bottom, forwards, D, and goalies, the game 7's (and 5 against CBJ) have just been garbage efforts. Watching them lose in OT of Game 6 against Montreal, it was obvious to everyone that the Leafs were going to lose the series, and they laid an absolute egg in game 7.

A GM is responsible for the team and his players, but the players are the ones who actually play the game. The Montreal series in isolation is easy for me to blame on Marner, but where does it become the GM's responsibility when it's been three years in a row? We're about to get a kick at the can for a sixth time with this core, and if we go down in flames again it's obviously time to retool. I wouldn't blame the org for wanting a new vision at this point, which is why I speak so freely of a pink slip.

And honestly, I don't really know how to cap this comment off. I want to point out that while the team Dubas inherited was pretty good, he still inherited this core that lays eggs in elimination games. It feels like everywhere I want to go from here is just unverifiable guesswork into why the Leafs struggle the way that they do. I'd love it if we had a GM who could come in, make some moves and get these guys' heads sorted out, but I have no idea if that's a realistic expectation or not. What I do know is that I like Dubas enough that I don't support change for the sake of change. If we're going to fire the GM, it had better be for a guy with all the answers, because there are a whole lot of GM's who are terrible and our history is rife with them. Perhaps we could do better than Dubas, but I also know that we could do much, much worse.

 

[All Mod Cons]

There is one key difference going into the playoffs from previous years. The Leafs have the best special teams in the league. No. 1 on the powerplay, No. 5 in penalty killing. This bodes well given the limited chances teams will have in the playoffs. If Dubas can add a defenceman, and we continue to get average goaltending, I think the chances of advancing in the playoffs will be good. Then, Dubas will be given credit for some of the additions he's made (Bunting, Bush, Kase, Kampf, etc)

That is a very good point. They're excellent at killing penalties this year. I'd say 75% of the time we look more dangerous than the other team, which is crazy to think about.

 

[david999]

I believe Dubas has done a good job navigating through the pitfalls of managing the most scrutinized team in the NHL. I have zero problem paying for legitimate talent they have. Marner, Matthews, and Nylander are elite players.
Tavares, as a free agent signing, was what had to be paid for at that time. He had to clean up some of Lou’s mistakes (Zaitsev, Marleu, Babcock), and try to remake the bottom six, defence, and goaltending. Unfortunately, a pandemic hit that turned everything upside down, including the way the salary cap was flattened. He has made some excellent trades and free agent signings ( Brody, Campbell, Muzzin, Kampfe, Bunting, Kase, Luyubuskin) and a couple of duds in Ritchie and Mrazak. This is probably the most talented Leafs team ever in the modern era. Now of course the players have to learn, from their past shortcomings in the playoffs, to be more intense and tougher mentally if they want to win. Dubas has also learned that skill alone won’t win in the playoffs. That’s why I’m confident he will do all he can at the deadline to make this group even better.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The way that I see the Leafs, their single biggest problem is their mental weakness in the playoffs. Marner is the main culprit and the focal point or my ire, but the team has been a complete and utter disaster in deciding games for the last three years. Top to bottom, forwards, D, and goalies, the game 7's (and 5 against CBJ) have just been garbage efforts. Watching them lose in OT of Game 6 against Montreal, it was obvious to everyone that the Leafs were going to lose the series, and they laid an absolute egg in game 7.

A GM is responsible for the team and his players, but the players are the ones who actually play the game. The Montreal series in isolation is easy for me to blame on Marner, but where does it become the GM's responsibility when it's been three years in a row? We're about to get a kick at the can for a sixth time with this core, and if we go down in flames again it's obviously time to retool. I wouldn't blame the org for wanting a new vision at this point, which is why I speak so freely of a pink slip.

And honestly, I don't really know how to cap this comment off. I want to point out that while the team Dubas inherited was pretty good, he still inherited this core that lays eggs in elimination games. It feels like everywhere I want to go from here is just unverifiable guesswork into why the Leafs struggle the way that they do. I'd love it if we had a GM who could come in, make some moves and get these guys' heads sorted out, but I have no idea if that's a realistic expectation or not. What I do know is that I like Dubas enough that I don't support change for the sake of change. If we're going to fire the GM, it had better be for a guy with all the answers, because there are a whole lot of GM's who are terrible and our history is rife with them. Perhaps we could do better than Dubas, but I also know that we could do much, much worse.

Very well said, I'd like this post many times if I could! And you're so right, it's easy to say Dubas has to go if we fail again in the playoffs but if people think that the next guy is guaranteed to have more success, they are delusional because like you say and I'll just quote you here because you said it perfectly:

Perhaps we could do better than Dubas, but I also know that we could do much, much worse.

So while I would say I could understand the reasons for moving on from Dubas I would also say careful what you wish for, and also that change for the sake of change is almost never a good idea. But like I said earlier, let's see what happens in the playoffs first. Maybe we have some success, maybe we show up at crunch time for a change (especially Marner) and then we can have happier conversations in the summer. GLG!!

 

[Ciao]

I like what I'm seeing from the Leafs both on and off the ice.

I don't agree with every move, and the team does have its' ups and downs. But then again, even the 1978 Montreal Canadiens still lost eight games, and these certainly aren't the 1978 Habs. Nor is any other team since then.

As far as I know, they haven't handed out this year's Stanley Cup. The Leafs aren't the odds-on favourite, for sure, but they are very much in the running and that's what I want to see every year.

I just hope any changes they make are designed to make the team even stronger next year and in the years after that. If they keep building they have their best chance to get where they want to go.

 

[DarkKnight]

Yesterday on LL, they referenced some article in The Athletic that did a deal by deal grading of Dubas and the conclusion was a pretty bad trade record, anyone see it?

 

[capfit9]

This team is 5th in the entire league and 8 points off of the presidents trophy ffs. This place is a joke

Even with leagues worst goaltending over 2+ months they are 19-9-3 in that span. Imagine where this team would be with average goaltending?

Instead of focusing on the 10 mill “wasted” why don’t you consider the fact that the 2.7 mill you didn’t mention is Bunting, Kase and Kampf. Or why did you not mention that Ritchie has been turned into Lyubushkin who is currently doing well playing on the top pair?

Might want to put your reading glasses on.

Also the regular season is not the playoffs.

 

[AvroArrow]

We all shit on Kyle for his mistakes, they're well known here. But some positives

Acquired Campbell. Despite the struggles don't forget how good he played last season and early this season
Acquired Muzzin who's been a rock for us on D with injury trouble the last 2 years
Signed Brodie
Signed Bunting
Signed Kase
Signed Kampf
Traded Kapanen for a 1st (Amirov)
Drafted Sandin/Lily/Robertson/Knies/Niemela
Signed Nylander to an amazing deal, 6.9M is an absolute steal for what he brings
Extended Rielly on a very team friendly deal
Flipped Ritchie for Lyubushkin

No GM is perfect, he has his fair share of f*** ups but why do we love to ignore all the good things he's done ? I'm not a fan of Dubas in any way but if we're going to critique him, at least be fair and address everything.

 

[The Podium]

delete… double post

 

[The Podium]

Might want to put your reading glasses on.

Also the regular season is not the playoffs.

What am I missing? Also how can you evaluate something that hasn’t happened yet?

 

[A1LeafNation]

One big flaw is this team can't intimidate a team with hitting which is how most cup teams win.

Like the forwards and the goaltending. There is a big gap between #1-2D and the rest of the D.

 

[The Podium]

Yesterday on LL, they referenced some article in The Athletic that did a deal by deal grading of Dubas and the conclusion was a pretty bad trade record, anyone see it?

They only included major trades during this tenure. There were no home run trades, but overall it was just a lot of deck shuffling and nothing deals.

The actual conclusion was that Dubas hasn’t utilized trades to build his team and has been relying on value UFA add.

List:
1. Campbell
2. Muzzin
3. Kapanen
4. Lyubushkin
5. Galchenyuk
6. McCann
7. Andreas Johnsson
8. Hutchinson
9. Petan
10. Barabanov
11. Zaitsev
12. Rittich/Nash
13. Malgin/marchment
14. Marleau
15. Kadri
16. Foligno

 

[Ciao]

Leafs Nation has already seen this .... Way back in 2017-18 they finished tied for 6th overall in points with 105 and 12 points off the President's Trophy. They were 3rd in GF and 10th in goals against.

This is the team Kyle Dubas inherited. So 4 years later being in the same spot with now the 3 Amigo's in their prime isn't really something to get excited about. .. Been there, done that !!!!

We all know the frustrating part is not about duplicating past NHL regular season results, but rather the disappointing playoff results that followed.

Kyle Dubas was hired to move the ball forward not keep it in place.

Staying at or near the top for an extended period of time is a great accomplishment.

Four of the five teams that finished ahead of the Leafs when Dubas took over -- Boston, Nashville, Winnipeg and Vegas -- are behind them now.

The only two team that were in the top six both then and now are the Leafs and the Lightning.

I think the Leafs are doing pretty well under Shanahan, Dubas and Keefe.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. I just wonder who you think might do a better job?

 

[capfit9]

What am I missing? Also how can you evaluate something that hasn’t happened yet?

Because I can already forecast excuse making, what they are best at, coming through the organization that they ran into a juggernaut TBL or FLA in the first round. While ignoring they lost to weaker teams like MTL & CLB.

 

[The Podium]

Because I can already forecast excuse making, what they are best at, coming through the organization that they ran into a juggernaut TBL or FLA in the first round. While ignoring they lost to weaker teams like MTL & CLB.

Ok crystal ball…

 

[All Mod Cons]

Yesterday on LL, they referenced some article in The Athletic that did a deal by deal grading of Dubas and the conclusion was a pretty bad trade record, anyone see it?

Honestly I don't know where the idea that Kyle is great at trades comes from. He also gets credited for his UFA signings.

When you sign 15 UFAs every offseason, some will work out and some won't. They're are just as many (if not more) guys that disappear into oblivion.

We all shit on Kyle for his mistakes, they're well known here. But some positives

Acquired Campbell. Despite the struggles don't forget how good he played last season and early this season
Acquired Muzzin who's been a rock for us on D with injury trouble the last 2 years
Signed Brodie
Signed Bunting
Signed Kase
Signed Kampf
Traded Kapanen for a 1st (Amirov)
Drafted Sandin/Lily/Robertson/Knies/Niemela
Signed Nylander to an amazing deal, 6.9M is an absolute steal for what he brings
Extended Rielly on a very team friendly deal
Flipped Ritchie for Lyubushkin

No GM is perfect, he has his fair share of f*** ups but why do we love to ignore all the good things he's done ? I'm not a fan of Dubas in any way but if we're going to critique him, at least be fair and address everything.

Yeah, he's definitely had some good moves as well as bad. He's like 75% of GMs elsewhere around the league. Some good, some bad. He's certainly not this out of the box, forward thinking guru that he was initially made out to be. He's just a run of the mill GM. That's why I don't get why some are so tied to him.

 

[Apex Predator]

Everything will be forgiven if the leafs can win a playoff round.

 

[colchar]

Hated the naming of JT as "C". A guy who was brought in via FA becomes the appointed leader as an outsider instead of promoting from within, if you will. Perhaps, Matthews was the pick but his Arizona summer troubles nixed that, I don't know, but JT should've never been named captain. I think that set this team back.

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

realize too much cap is in 4 guys and as much as you love your players, that model is just not a good one for winning Cups.

Someone should have told Chicago that when they were winning Cups.

 

[Zybalto]

It's been less than 4 years and very few games considering covid so the next couple of full seasons will be the make or break ones for Dubas.

Your only as good as your last season though I guess as the only GM in the NHL that has reigned as "GM of the year" this decade has apparently driven his team into the ground and they look like crap and arnt even gonna be in the show this year and are in an awful cap position.

I don't quite think enough people can separate the fact the GM's acquire the talent, the coach's implement the system and the players perform.

With the Leafs, it's pretty much on the players not performing in the clutch and I include all of them including both the stars and goaltending that would have been in those games under any GM, and this is depsite getting an insane amount of chances, odd man rushes, open nets, etc. for the stars and the goalies giving up softies in big games.

It's also the Simmonds/Thornton/Folignos that have been busts too so that is certainly on Dubas (although injuries have also been terrible for the club).

Gonna have to see what the future holds but a nice cup run would certainly do him wonders of course. He handled the Ritchie situation beautifully and if he could pull off something similar with Mrazek, it would clean up any misgivings from an otherwise great last off-season.

 

[All Mod Cons]

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.





Someone should have told Chicago that when they were winning Cups.

Yeah, probably can be done with 4 guys. 4 forwards though? No chance (imo)

 

[The Iceman]

Kyle is one of the nicest guys in sports, at least from the outside looking in.

Can't let him being a tremendous person blind to the fact his team has won zero playoff rounds and created what seems to be a soft passionless group on the verge of another first round failure, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that.

Love his creativity and ability to find guys like Kase and Bunting. Those are the types that help you win when it matters, although Kase's body is not fit for the long haul. Don't recall a player who seemed as fragile.

Hate him trapping himself when it comes to money where he has to pay resources to get out from under bad moves IE: Ritchie But, love that he didn't just pretend things were okay with Slick Nick and sent him away. Always nice when a GM acknowledges a mistake, and that it was, and a costly one. Nice that he didn't just have to Marleau this one and got back an asset who appears to be a serviceable Dman in Lyubushkin.

Don't like his penchant for finding washed guys like Thornton, Simmonds, Spezza, etc. and consider that fixing the toughness/grit/maturity issue.

Hated the naming of JT as "C". A guy who was brought in via FA becomes the appointed leader as an outsider instead of promoting from within, if you will. Perhaps, Matthews was the pick but his Arizona summer troubles nixed that, I don't know, but JT should've never been named captain. I think that set this team back.

Hate his willingness or need to burn picks. A GM who does this as routinely as Kyle better get results. He has not to this point.

Love his care and compassion for injured players. The injury to Cobra in NJ really stands out to me.

Hate his philosophizing and self-validation of paying 4 forwards 40 million when it has failed over and over. Think he's brutal at doing long term deals with players giving wrong terms and bloated cap numbers.

Love his belief in what he's doing, as misguided as I think his approach has been. He has tweaked his philosophy while not abandoning it. I appreciate his willingness to try new things when he fails.

Wish he prioritized intangibles more than he does. He is a cold sterile analytical type. There is value there but hockey like all sports is a human game. I wish he'd paid more attention to that from the beginning. Don't believe the player-friendly culture is conducive to on-ice success but is a draw for FAs. Many guys want to come here to be passengers at ends of careers. He encourages that.

Not a fan of the very child-like ways he deals with his players when speaking of them in the media as to handling them as if they're extremely mentally brittle. I would swear he's managing peewees when he speaks sometimes. Would prefer he was bolder as to being about winning and not put so much focus on things that don't have to do with that.

Not a fan of his addiction to Soo connections. Every GM has their guys but he seems to pump a lot of water from that old well.

I know I was deathly curious when he took over if his philosophies would translate to winning. I think he found they don't and as mentioned above has at least been willing to tweak them somewhat.

Applaud him for moving on from Babcock and bringing in the guy he thinks represents his philosophy on and off the ice.

Wish he'd tweak his philosophy on paying 4 forwards 40 million and ship one out. He doesn't seem to have the stones to do that tough thing that needs to be done. He'd rather grind away on the periphery than get to the net so to speak and realize too much cap is in 4 guys and as much as you love your players, that model is just not a good one for winning Cups.

Overall, I love the guy, personally. He's a great representative from a PR standpoint. I wish he was equal in pushing hard to win it all and came off that way through more accountability. I don't believe he runs a tight ship as to promoting a sold out for winning culture and should be managing younger players and not men.

The Soo connections have landed us Sandin, Bunting and Keefe...not too shabby