Kucherov 6 point night

[EazyE1]

seems hes bounced back after that piss poor performance at the all star game

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Animal. Looking like another awesome scoring race in the making. So nice to have this generation’s superstar trio still performing at the highest level well past the age of 25.

You talking about the leagues 7th leading scorer as well? I guess your right. 7th in scoring is pretty good. At the prime age of 27

 

[John Mandalorian]

Delete.

 

[WalterLundy]

That's not true at all though. Peak Crosby would be 2010-13, where this was the points per game breakdown.

Crosby 1.61
Malkin 1.20
Stamkos 1.16
St Louis 1.13
Sedin 1.05

The scoring environment is much friendlier to top scorers now. There were 29! Ppg+ players last year and 9! 100+ scorers. During that Crosby peak only one player averaged 100+ per 82 games, and that's Crosby. It's a night and day difference in scoring environment.

Crosby played 99 games over the span while you compared to players playing full seasons. You’d have to compare Crosby each season during the stretches he was actually active to his peers to see where he was. Also points per game isn’t everything. You actually have to play to “dominate” your peers.

Active Crosby:
2010-11 season:
Oct 7 2010 to Jan 5 2011
Crosby: 66 in 41 (32 G) 1.61 ppg
2nd: Stamkos: 56 in 41 (31 G) 1.37 ppg

When active was clearly the best player in the world who had a chance at the rocket among obviously all the other big awards. We will never know how it would have played out but while he was the best player his competition was down. Malkin and Ovechkin of the years prior weren’t there this year and it certainly was very weak compared to the guys now that say a McDavid has to battle against. Kucherov, MacKinnon and Draisaitl in any prime year would outproduce Stamkos in 2011.

2011-12 season:
Stretch 1:
Nov 21 2011 to Dec 5 2011
Toews: 7 GP: 6 G, 7 A, 13 P (1.86)
Crosby: 8 GP: 2 G, 10 A, 12 P (1.50)

Stretch 2:
Mar 15 2012 to Apr 7 2012
Malkin: 14 GP: 12 G, 13 A, 25 P (1.79)
Crosby: 14 GP: 6 G, 19 A, 25 P (1.79)

This was Malkin’s year. 22 games over vastly different stretches isn’t a season or a dominant one.

2012-13:
Jan 19 2013 to Mar 30 2013
Crosby: 56 in 36 (1.56)
2nd: Stamkos: 46 in 34 (1.35)

The season ended with Crosby missing April and Stamkos falling to 1.19 ppg and St. Louis taking over at second with 1.25 ppg but winning the Ross. Definitely the best to my eye this year and was on a per game basis as well but context must be applied for these.

Since they weren’t full seasons (other than maybe 2013 which he at least played 75% of the schedule) you would have to compare via adjusted stats of some kind. Crosby of 2011 and 2013 are usable as 2012 can’t be taken for really anything of value.

Adjusted stats from HockeyReference:
Crosby 2011: 71 in 41 (1.73)
Crosby 2013: 106 in 62 (1.71)
2013’s schedule adjusts up to 82 like all other seasons so 36/48 games becomes 62/82.
Kucherov 2024: 140 in 81 (1.73)
MacKinnon 2024: 138 in 82 (1.68)
McDavid 2024: 130 in 76 (1.71)
McDavid 2023: 146 in 82 (1.78)
McDavid 2021: 158 in 82 (1.93)
2021 same as 2013 in terms of 82 game adjustment.

Adjustments by using the NHL historical average league environment of
ESG: 2.24, PPG: 0.72, SHG: 0.10

20-21 McDavid: 56 GP: 114 P (2.04)
22-23 McDavid: 82 GP: 156 P (1.90)
23-24 Kucherov: 81 GP: 147 P (1.81)
12-13 Crosby: 36 GP: 65 P (1.81)
10-11 Crosby: 41 GP: 74 P (1.80)
23-24 McDavid: 76 GP: 134 P (1.76)
23-24 MacKinnon: 82 GP: 141 P (1.72)

It’s easy to see that what Kucherov did last year was as good as Crosby ever was capable of for points per game (era relative) and did it over a full season which is why I consider it better. Same with MacKinnon honestly as he was close enough in adjusted ppg as well as McDavid’s third best season. At a certain point we have to just gracious and give credit where it is due.

 

[WalterLundy]

You talking about the leagues 7th leading scorer as well? I guess your right. 7th in scoring is pretty good. At the prime age of 27

Let it go like you did in June. It’s been over and the act is played out. Enjoy Crosby AND McDavid. It’s possible and you’ll enjoy hockey so much more.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Crosby played 99 games over the span while you compared to players playing full seasons. You’d have to compare Crosby each season during the stretches he was actually active to his peers to see where he was. Also points per game isn’t everything. You actually have to play to “dominate” your peers.

Active Crosby:
2010-11 season:
Oct 7 2010 to Jan 5 2011
Crosby: 66 in 41 (32 G) 1.61 ppg
2nd: Stamkos: 56 in 41 (31 G) 1.37 ppg

When active was clearly the best player in the world who had a chance at the rocket among obviously all the other big awards. We will never know how it would have played out but while he was the best player his competition was down. Malkin and Ovechkin of the years prior weren’t there this year and it certainly was very weak compared to the guys now that say a McDavid has to battle against. Kucherov, MacKinnon and Draisaitl in any prime year would outproduce Stamkos in 2011.

2011-12 season:
Stretch 1:
Nov 21 2011 to Dec 5 2011
Toews: 7 GP: 6 G, 7 A, 13 P (1.86)
Crosby: 8 GP: 2 G, 10 A, 12 P (1.50)

Stretch 2:
Mar 15 2012 to Apr 7 2012
Malkin: 14 GP: 12 G, 13 A, 25 P (1.79)
Crosby: 14 GP: 6 G, 19 A, 25 P (1.79)

This was Malkin’s year. 22 games over vastly different stretches isn’t a season or a dominant one.

2012-13:
Jan 19 2013 to Mar 30 2013
Crosby: 56 in 36 (1.56)
2nd: Stamkos: 46 in 34 (1.35)

The season ended with Crosby missing April and Stamkos falling to 1.19 ppg and St. Louis taking over at second with 1.25 ppg but winning the Ross. Definitely the best to my eye this year and was on a per game basis as well but context must be applied for these.

Since they weren’t full seasons (other than maybe 2013 which he at least played 75% of the schedule) you would have to compare via adjusted stats of some kind. Crosby of 2011 and 2013 are usable as 2012 can’t be taken for really anything of value.

Adjusted stats from HockeyReference:
Crosby 2011: 71 in 41 (1.73)
Crosby 2013: 106 in 62 (1.71)
2013’s schedule adjusts up to 82 like all other seasons so 36/48 games becomes 62/82.
Kucherov 2024: 140 in 81 (1.73)
MacKinnon 2024: 138 in 82 (1.68)
McDavid 2024: 130 in 76 (1.71)
McDavid 2023: 146 in 82 (1.78)
McDavid 2021: 158 in 82 (1.93)
2021 same as 2013 in terms of 82 game adjustment.

Adjustments by using the NHL historical average league environment of
ESG: 2.24, PPG: 0.72, SHG: 0.10

20-21 McDavid: 56 GP: 114 P (2.04)
22-23 McDavid: 82 GP: 156 P (1.90)
23-24 Kucherov: 81 GP: 147 P (1.81)
12-13 Crosby: 36 GP: 65 P (1.81)
10-11 Crosby: 41 GP: 74 P (1.80)
23-24 McDavid: 76 GP: 134 P (1.76)
23-24 MacKinnon: 82 GP: 141 P (1.72)

It’s easy to see that what Kucherov did last year was as good as Crosby ever was capable of for points per game (era relative) and did it over a full season which is why I consider it better. Same with MacKinnon honestly as he was close enough in adjusted ppg as well as McDavid’s third best season. At a certain point we have to just gracious and give credit where it is due.

I mean you're the one that said he was peak Crosby over a full season. Peak Crosby lapped the field, no one was even close. A 99 game sample size is pretty telling that no one was in his league. If you want to go to prime instead, 07-14, it's Crosby again.

 Crosby 1.42
Malkin 1.22
Ovechkin 1.18
St Louis 1.07
Thornton 1.05

And adjusted stats are only adjusted based on league averages. They are absolutely not a good way to compare the two eras for scorers. The increase in scoring disproportionately helps scorers, not your average 3rd liner. Smaller goalie pads, more empty net points, high pp efficiencies, no more headshots or cheapshots, no more net front battles, etc. 144 points when there's 9 100+ scorers is not more impressive than 109 (Malkin) or 104 (Crosby) when they are the only ones to hit 100 points in the league.

 

[olli]

It's because he goes about it so quietly. Like a ninja on the ice you don't even know he's there and the next thing you know he's dropping dimes where you least expect it.

But seriously, underrated? He's pretty widely considered a top 3 forward in the league, isn't he?

Among knowledgeable fans for sure and among players he’s not underrated but in the media he’s still underrated from what I’ve seen.

I mean you're the one that said he was peak Crosby over a full season. Peak Crosby lapped the field, no one was even close. A 99 game sample size is pretty telling that no one was in his league. If you want to go to prime instead, 07-14, it's Crosby again.

 Crosby 1.42
Malkin 1.22
Ovechkin 1.18
St Louis 1.07
Thornton 1.05

And adjusted stats are only adjusted based on league averages. They are absolutely not a good way to compare the two eras for scorers. The increase in scoring disproportionately helps scorers, not your average 3rd liner. Smaller goalie pads, more empty net points, high pp efficiencies, no more headshots or cheapshots, no more net front battles, etc. 144 points when there's 9 100+ scorers is not more impressive than 109 (Malkin) or 104 (Crosby) when they are the only ones to hit 100 points in the league.

Ok but by that logic where do the top guys stack up the year that Jamie Benn won the art ross

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Among knowledgeable fans for sure and among players he’s not underrated but in the media he’s still underrated from what I’ve seen.


Ok but by that logic where do the top guys stack up the year that Jamie Benn won the art ross

That was the peak of dead puck era 2.0. Crosby still lead the league in points per game but the Pens played a really defensive style under Mike Johnston.

 

[olli]

Drai just put up 4 playing with Podkolzin and Kapanen. Tampa scored 8 a few days ago and Kuch didn’t even play.

yeah Tampa’s scoring depth is better this year

 

[EmptyNetAssassin]

Back 2 back cups says other wise. Kucherov is just better than Mackinnon

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

He's no Sittler.

 

[dirtydanglez]

He's no Sittler.

not even a sam gagner

 

[John Mandalorian]

Back 2 cups says other wise. Kucherov is just better than Mackinnon

Don’t you mean back to back to back...oh wait. Sorry about that.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

pfftt.. same gagner

not even a sam gagner

Too much Toronto greatness in one post!

 

[Jordan Belfort]

Looks like I wasn’t incorrect about kucherov being in mcdavids tier after all.

 

[BoltSTH]

Scoring at 1.76 ppg, next best 1.54. Same pace as last year.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Back 2 back cups says other wise. Kucherov is just better than Mackinnon

Covid cups*

Looks like I wasn’t incorrect about kucherov being in mcdavids tier after all.

Different tiers for sure. McDavid is more like Gretzky or Lemieux. Kuch is like Jagr. Nothing to be ashamed of , but not the same

 

[Jordan Belfort]

Covid cups*


Different tiers for sure. McDavid is more like Gretzky or Lemieux. Kuch is like Jagr. Nothing to be ashamed of , but not the same

Kucherov out scoring McDavid handily

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Kucherov out scoring McDavid handily

McDavid is a considerably better player overall, but believe what you want

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Covid cups*


Different tiers for sure. McDavid is more like Gretzky or Lemieux. Kuch is like Jagr. Nothing to be ashamed of , but not the same

McDavid is not like Lemieux. Lemieux would never be outscored by MacKinnon, Draisaitl, or Kucherov.

 

[Toby91ca]

Scoring at 1.76 ppg, next best 1.54. Same pace as last year.

Ok, but about 15 hours ago, Kucherov was at 1.58ppg and best was 1.59....

 

[Plastic Joseph]

McDavid is not like Lemieux. Lemieux would never be outscored by MacKinnon, Draisaitl, or Kucherov.

Lemieux is better for sure, but McDavid is closer to lemieux than he is to Kucherov. There's a reason most people think it will be a big 5 when he retires.

Kucherov is amazing but he's nowhere near those guys. McDavid was the best player in the world at 19 while Kucheeov wasn't even a top 10 player until he was 25.

 

[Soul Assumption]

Different tiers for sure. McDavid is more like Gretzky or Lemieux. Kuch is like Jagr. Nothing to be ashamed of , but not the same

Gretzky and Lemieux have only lost the Art Ross to each other. McDavid has lost to Kucherov twice now and will probably lose again. He's a better player but he's not a tier above

 

[Plastic Joseph]

He's a tier above for sure



Do I need to list the players who have outscored Kucherov in a season in his career? they aren't even held to the same standards lol

 

[WalterLundy]

I mean you're the one that said he was peak Crosby over a full season. Peak Crosby lapped the field, no one was even close. A 99 game sample size is pretty telling that no one was in his league. If you want to go to prime instead, 07-14, it's Crosby again.

 Crosby 1.42
Malkin 1.22
Ovechkin 1.18
St Louis 1.07
Thornton 1.05

And adjusted stats are only adjusted based on league averages. They are absolutely not a good way to compare the two eras for scorers. The increase in scoring disproportionately helps scorers, not your average 3rd liner. Smaller goalie pads, more empty net points, high pp efficiencies, no more headshots or cheapshots, no more net front battles, etc. 144 points when there's 9 100+ scorers is not more impressive than 109 (Malkin) or 104 (Crosby) when they are the only ones to hit 100 points in the league.

Based on adjusted stats it’s true that he was peak Sid over a full season. Whether or not people treat them as important or not is another thing entirely and I’m okay with fans either disregarding them or treating them as a tool at best.

I covered each span in detail for Crosby’s 99 game 2011-2013 peak. If you want to say he lapped the field in ppg that’s fine but when seasons are that short it’s better in my opinion to look at when he was actually active. It would be different if he played full seasons but that sadly didn’t occur.

With the 2007-2014 prime I get that he was ppg dominant but remember that the 99 games of a possible 212 from 2011-2013 helps to both buff and preserve his ppg as the rest of the field has to go through all of those games he missed. Still would have created separation here no doubt but not playing games does preserve ppg. Happened to Lemieux and Crosby. Remember that from 2006-2010 it was 1.36 for Crosby to 1.34 for Ovechkin with Ovi acquiring more hardware and more goals (total stats). Crosby’s separation for ppg was the small sample peak and 2014 being a good year in a terrible year for other top scorers. I say this not to diminish as he was the best from 06-14 but context is key.

Only thing I’ll push back on here or at least ask a question of is that I can’t actually believe that 144 in 81 GP in 2024 is less impressive than say 104 in 80 GP in 2014. If we aren’t going to use any adjustment (which is fine) I don’t see how a 40 point gap can be overcome.

The question I’ll ask you is this:
What would a Malkin 109 in 75 from 2012 be worth in 2024 to you? How about the 104 in 80 from 2014 Crosby? Lastly what do you believe a 120-130 point range estimated Crosby 2011 season be worth today? I don’t ask this for any other reason other than curiosity and possible insight from you for things I may just be missing or overlooking.