Kelly Hrudey and Ron Hextall

[The Panther]

Okay, a bit of an odd pairing to bring up these two. I'm not trying to compare them -- it's not Hrudey vs. Hextall -- but rather just discuss them.)

Recently I was wondering: 'How good/bad was Kelly Hrudey, really?' He seems to get a lot of flack from Kings' fans for the early-90s playoff losses (I can understand, as I watched them all), but earlier in his career he was great, and he led the Kings to the Cup Final. When you look back at his stats from the Islanders and his first and third seasons with the Kings, he's very impressive. When he arrived in L.A. (late in Gretzky's first season, early '89), they had no goaltending to speak of, and Hrudey put up a 10-4 record with a .904 save-percentage, and in 1990-91 went 23-13-6 with a .900. Those save-percentages were unheard-of in the Smythe division at the time (e.g., Mike Vernon was .897 on the 1989 Flames, a much better team).

Hrudey also (mostly -- after a first-round hiccup) backstopped the Kings to the '93 Finals. Having said that, his stats aren't impressive in that run, BUT he did match Patrick Roy for four games in the final series.

Actually, Hrudey's numbers with the Kings are still pretty good in '95 and in 1995-96, when the team was terrible and the Gretzky-era period was winding down.

It seems to me our negative memories of his performances are mainly down to those nasty losses to Edmonton in '90, '91, and '92. (He was particularly awful in 1990.)



Someone was talking about Hextall's 1986-87 form in another thread, and I thought it's vaguely similar to Hrudey, wherein he was a star goalie very early in his career, but later never seemed quite to live up to expectations. I remember him being awesome in the '87 playoffs (my memory goes back that far) and then so-so for years afterwards. He sure put up great numbers for the Lindros-Philly team in 1995-96, with a 31-13-7 record and the lowest GAA in the League.

And he was terrible at times in the '97 playoff runs for Philly, but in fairness that's 10 years later.


What do you make of these two? Have their reputations been unfairly tainted by a few bad playoff losses? Were they goalies made redundant by mid-90s goaltending changes, or was their time just up by then?

 

[Hank Chinaski]

Actually a pretty interesting comparison, their career numbers are incredibly similar:

Career GP (Regular season)
Hrudey: 677
Hextall: 674

Career goals saved vs. league average save percentage (Regular season)
Hrudey: 128.7
Hextall: 124.1

Career GP (Playoffs)
Hrudey: 85
Hextall: 93

Career goals saved vs. league average save percentage (Playoffs)
Hrudey: -4.6
Hextall: -1.0

Credit for all numbers to hockeygoalies.org

http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/hrudey.html

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/hextall.html

 

[Hank Chinaski]

The one thing that stood out most from looking through their stats, in particular their playoff stats: Hextall actually posted some very solid numbers in that 1993 first round loss to the Habs.

My recollection was that Hextall was viewed as one of the major culprits in the Nordiques disappointing early exit, but that appears not to have been the case. I do have a distinct memory of him going nuts on one of the refs in game 3 (was it Kevin Collins?) after a goal. I somehow built up this narrative that he lost his cool and that it contributed directly to the Nordiques blowing that 2-0 series lead.

 

[double5son10]

The one thing that stood out most from looking through their stats, in particular their playoff stats: Hextall actually posted some very solid numbers in that 1993 first round loss to the Habs.

My recollection was that Hextall was viewed as one of the major culprits in the Nordiques disappointing early exit, but that appears not to have been the case. I do have a distinct memory of him going nuts on one of the refs in game 3 (was it Kevin Collins?) after a goal. I somehow built up this narrative that he lost his cool and that it contributed directly to the Nordiques blowing that 2-0 series lead.

Damphousse's winning goal went off Gusarov's skate. Muller had Goose tied up as he drove to the net and Hextall thought Muller had kicked it in, instead of his teammate. He flipped out on Billy McCreary (Kevin Collins was a linesman). He played well thru the first four games of that series, but wasn't great in gm.5 and on Muller's OT winner Hextall looked off-balance. The deciding game 6 he completely melted down and got pulled after giving up 5 before the 2nd period was over.

Generally speaking Hextall put up fairly good numbers later in his return to the Flyers, he just became a goalie who could give up bad, momentum killing goals or else, as w/ '93, melt-down in key games.

 

[Big Phil]

Ironically, both were back ups to Grant Fuhr on the 1987 Canada Cup team. Looking back one might wonder why Patrick Roy wasn't on the team and how he got cut over Hrudey. The thing is, Roy had two seasons under his belt and as great as he was in the 1986 Cup run, he didn't have a great 1987 postseason and was actually pulled. It would be a little like Cam Ward if there was a World Cup in 2007 you would still wonder if he's "ready" yet. Plus, Hrudey was just fresh off that classic Game 7 overtime showdown vs. the Capitals and Keenan said he had a good training camp.

I don't know, Hextall was a goalie who teased you a bit but in the end almost always let in a soft untimely goal. Other than 1987 of course. Outside of that it seemed with him being erratic it hurt the team. His temper was that of Billy Smith but I wouldn't trust him in my net. I remember this doozy in 1995 with time dwindling down in Game 5 of the semis. I mean, no joke, Philly might have literally won the Cup if he doesn't allow this goal:




Hrudey I think had some soft moments in the 1993 run. All of those overtime goals from Montreal he looked "meh" on. Game 2 was a five hole goal, Game 3 he really needs to clear that away, even a poke check and things could change. Game 4 he is WAY out of position, I know Sydor got some blame on that goal but at least he was in the position to make the save, Hrudey wasn't. This Kings team really went to the Cup final because of Gretzky and not Hrudey. I never thought he was very good. No one I ever thought you could win with at least. At least with Hextall he didn't tease you and make you think you were going to win.

 

[The Panther]

That Claude Lemieux goal was poor, but there were one or two worse ones in the '97 Finals against Detroit.

How about Kelly Hrudey? It's easy to forget how highly touted he was in the 80s, and even well into the 90s.

 

[MS]

All goalies of that era tend to look 'bad' looking at video now given how much the position advanced post-1995.

I tend to think of Hrudey as a slightly superior goalie to Hextall, and that Hextall's early success was a product of a system that made Lindbergh and Froese look like superstars in the two years previous to his debut.

Hrudey's save % numbers show him to be a pretty consistently above-average goalie :

1984-85 5th of 20 goalies to play 40+ games
1985-86 2nd of 20
1986-87 13th of 25
1987-88 2nd of 21
1988-89 9th of 20
1989-90 15th of 22
1990-91 4th of 21
1991-92 7th of 20
1992-93 14th of 24
1993-94 16th of 29
1994-95 6th of 27

Considering that all of those teams save for the 84-86 Islanders were absolutely terrible defensively and a nightmare for a goalie to play behind, his numbers were pretty excellent. Vezina finalist in 1988, top-5 in 1986 and 1991.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Very similar goalies, but I like Hextall more... His "spunk" makes him just too great... Of course he scored a couple of goals... Hextall was very entertaining. lol

Remember when he went after Chelios? that was great...

Statistically they're very similar...

 

[Sergei Bure]

The only memorable thing about Hrudey was his mask, it was pretty cool.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

hrudey was traded to LA for mark fitzpatrick, who was later traded to quebec for... hextall.

I tend to think of Hrudey as a slightly superior goalie to Hextall, and that Hextall's early success was a product of a system that made Lindbergh and Froese look like superstars in the two years previous to his debut.

but what about hrudey's early success on the isles? under al arbour, all three isles goalies who preceded hrudey all had top three seasons: chico resch was a 2nd team all-star twice in the pre-modern vezina era, billy smith won the vezina, and rollie melanson also finished 2nd. and even after arbour stepped down, that team was still in the top half of GA in '87, and top five in '88 (and top five in '86, arbour's final year).

i don't really like hrudey's resume: other than '91 (and that 4th place was the product of only four ballots), he is a vezina non-factor after leaving the island. and i always get suspicious when a guy's vezina record is substantially better than his AST record (never finished higher than 6th, despite vezina finishes of 3, 4, and 5).

The only memorable thing about Hrudey was his mask, it was pretty cool.

his light blue headband too.

 

[mja]

Hextall was never the same after injuring his groin, I think in 89? My first real season as a hardcore hockey fan was in 87 and Hextall was a huge reason for it. He was the star player of the team until then, and I still remember the nightly news showing goddam x-rays of his testicles. His reflexes weren't as sharp after that.

By his second stretch in Philly he had changed a lot as a goalie. He was a stand-up guy who went to a hybrid butterfly style, which is why you see the ugly looking goals like Lemieux's. Sometimes he couldn't seem to figure out if he was still a stand-up tender or if he was supposed to drop in the butterfly.

 

[tony d]

Both where solid goalies but give me Hextall over Hrudey all time.

 

[The Pale King]

i don't really like hrudey's resume: other than '91 (and that 4th place was the product of only four ballots), he is a vezina non-factor after leaving the island. and i always get suspicious when a guy's vezina record is substantially better than his AST record (never finished higher than 6th, despite vezina finishes of 3, 4, and 5).

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but can I ask why?

 

[Big Phil]

Very similar goalies, but I like Hextall more... His "spunk" makes him just too great... Of course he scored a couple of goals... Hextall was very entertaining. lol

Remember when he went after Chelios? that was great...

Statistically they're very similar...

That's the stuff you liked about Chelios. Going after Chelios showed he cared. He was erratic and not always the guy you trust in net but he was sure fun to watch.

All goalies of that era tend to look 'bad' looking at video now given how much the position advanced post-1995.

That was coincidentally the time when equipment exploded in size. Look at Garth Snow in 1997 during the playoffs. That was a pretty new thing at that time. No one, even as recent as 1993 or 1994 looked like that. In 1995 the goal Hextall allowed was bad. In 2015 it would be bad. In 1955 it would be bad. That was just a horrible goal to allow. Hextall should have seen Claude had absolutely nowhere to go and do nothing but shoot. He was at the blue line about as far on the right wing as he could be and he scored. That wasn't just "another day at the office" type of goal, in any era that's bad.

 

[mja]

That was coincidentally the time when equipment exploded in size. Look at Garth Snow in 1997 during the playoffs. That was a pretty new thing at that time. No one, even as recent as 1993 or 1994 looked like that. In 1995 the goal Hextall allowed was bad. In 2015 it would be bad. In 1955 it would be bad. That was just a horrible goal to allow. Hextall should have seen Claude had absolutely nowhere to go and do nothing but shoot. He was at the blue line about as far on the right wing as he could be and he scored. That wasn't just "another day at the office" type of goal, in any era that's bad.

In 95 Hextall was one of my two favorite players in the world (the other being Renberg). I can confirm that the Lemieux goal was indeed considered a bad goal (even a terrible one) in 1995. It was a heart-breaker.

 

[blogofmike]

Hrudey I think had some soft moments in the 1993 run. All of those overtime goals from Montreal he looked "meh" on. Game 2 was a five hole goal, Game 3 he really needs to clear that away, even a poke check and things could change. Game 4 he is WAY out of position, I know Sydor got some blame on that goal but at least he was in the position to make the save, Hrudey wasn't. This Kings team really went to the Cup final because of Gretzky and not Hrudey. I never thought he was very good. No one I ever thought you could win with at least. At least with Hextall he didn't tease you and make you think you were going to win.

Agree with all but the last sentence. I assume you mean Hrudey always let you know he wouldn't be good enough to win? If so, agreed.

He felt like the Anti-Roy of playoff overtime. If I recall correctly, Desjardins beat him 5-hole 34 seconds into overtime after beating him about 6 seconds earlier but hitting the post.

In 1993 I was praying for Robb Stauber, who actually had to come in when Hrudey was briefly replaced in the first two rounds.

Regardless of what he did in 1987 for New York, I imagine Kings fans have few fond memories of Kelly Hrudey (aside from the admittedly cool Hollywood mask).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but can I ask why?

the way i see it, if a guy is #2 for the vezina and #3 in all-star voting, that's close enough that you can say the GMs and the writers basically agree. if there's a big disparity though, then either what you're seeing is a few GMs overrating a guy and swinging the vezina vote because one ballot can swing the results a lot farther in vezina voting, or years where there was a clear cream of the crop and a large field of guys beneath them basically being interchangeable.

but take a look at hrudey's resume:

1986: 5th in vezina, 10th in AST
1987: 11th in vezina, no AST votes
1988: 3rd in vezina, 8th in AST
1989: 11th in vezina, 7th in AST
1991: 4th in vezina, 6th in AST
1992: 7th in vezina, 9th in AST
1994: no vezina votes, 8th in AST
1995: 11th in vezina, no AST

when there's disagreement, i think you can't really take either at face value. so you take a look at the votes--

1986: 3 vezina ballots, 2 AST ballots
1987: 1 vezina ballot
1988: 5 vezina ballots, 6 AST ballots
1989: 1 vezina ballot, 5 AST ballots
1991: 4 vezina ballots, 14 AST ballots
1992: 1 vezina ballot, 1 AST ballot
1994: 1 AST ballot
1995: 1 vezina ballot

obviously there are only 21-26 possible vezina votes, while there are way more AST votes. i think what this data tells us is that hrudey is not a guy who ever got consensus support as a top guy. even in his best years, he really was just a guy that a few people thought was top 5 and most others didn't. if you look at his 4th place finish in '91, basically everyone agreed that the top two guys were belfour and roy, leaving everybody else (richter, hrudey, moog, beaupre, and others) to split a few stray votes. the fact that moog and beaupre flip-flop with richter and hrudey in AST voting that same year shows they were basically interchangeable.

his 3rd place finish in '88 looks even worse when you look at the vezina and AST voting.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

That's the stuff you liked about Chelios. Going after Chelios showed he cared. He was erratic and not always the guy you trust in net but he was sure fun to watch.



That was coincidentally the time when equipment exploded in size. Look at Garth Snow in 1997 during the playoffs. That was a pretty new thing at that time. No one, even as recent as 1993 or 1994 looked like that. In 1995 the goal Hextall allowed was bad. In 2015 it would be bad. In 1955 it would be bad. That was just a horrible goal to allow. Hextall should have seen Claude had absolutely nowhere to go and do nothing but shoot. He was at the blue line about as far on the right wing as he could be and he scored. That wasn't just "another day at the office" type of goal, in any era that's bad.

Well we all know the type of player Chelios was... He deserved it...

That whole Chelios/Hextall thing was real hockey...

Chelios was being Chelios and Hextall was being Hextall.... Gotta love it.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

The only memorable thing about Hrudey was his mask, it was pretty cool.

Indeed, but I don't know if I would call that thing "cool"....

Never really been a big fan of the grill...

I have no idea how some goalies can see through that, I cant...

 

[The Panther]

Regardless of what he did in 1987 for New York, I imagine Kings fans have few fond memories of Kelly Hrudey (aside from the admittedly cool Hollywood mask).

Bit of a harsh judgement, isn't it...?

Hrudey did backstop the team to consecutive playoff wins over defending Cup champions (1989, 1990), its first 1st-place finish in franchise history (1991), and a Stanley Cup Finals appearance, which, honestly, the Kings would have won if not for McSorley's stick / Demers' cunning.

He was never the best at his position and he was wildly inconsistent, but let's give him some credit, too.

 

[The Pale King]

the way i see it,....

Gotcha, makes sense to me. Although, if it was several Western GMs "overrating" a player, it could serve to counteract the perceived eastern bias for the awards voting.