Keith + Doughty = Robinson + Potvin?

[unknown33]

Nieuwendyk and Bure after their first four or five seasons looked like sure fire HHOF locks. We now have a different perception. Early achievements are nice but tend to get negated if a player fails to mature as a hockey player. See it happening with Dion Phaneuf.

I can't recall anyone of them winning a Hart trophy, let alone 2 (3 most likely).

 

[overpass]

Keith is phenomenal. I don't know if he's a late bloomer so much as someone that went unnoticed for a couple years while playing on some crappy Blackhawks teams. He's gotten some terrific results relative to his team his entire career - in 06/07, he played top pairing competition and was even at 5v5 despite playing on a net -22 team; in 07/08 he again played top pairing minutes and was +17 at 5v5 on a team that was +8 at 5v5.

That said, both have a long way to go to be compared to players like Potvin and Robinson.

Another comparison - are Keith and Seabrook the next Stapleton and White for the Blackhawks?

Keith does have pretty awesome even strength results. He's more of an even strength guy than special teams though. To oversimplify, I think it's because skating is his major strength, not high-end skills and shot for the power play, or size and strength for the penalty kill. In that way, Mark Howe might be a comparison, as a great skating defenceman who was best at even strength. Howe's best years came from age 27 on, so maybe Keith can put together a career of HHOF quality still.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bobby Orr came into the NHL during the pre Entry Draft era when sponsorship was the norm. Denis Potvin came into the NHL when junior players had to go thru the entry draft( or whatever it was called at that time - changed a few times) so he wound up playing junior two years longer.Potvin played a few games of major junior at 14.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=4355

In Potvin's case the last two years of junior created anticipation. - Which NHL team would have the good fortune to select him #1? Since the time 18 year olds have become eligible for the entry draft
the hype factor has slowly crept in as there are very few that could play at 18 on any NHL roster like Orr or Potvin could.

Defensemen today coming into the NHL at 18. Doughty had excellent coaching thru junior. Did not see Weber as a junior so will not comment BUT have seen some brutal coaching in Quebec impact on careers - Sauve and Despres come to mind although both seem to have bounced back.Luke Schenn has lagged a bit in his progress.

Defensemen arriving in the NHL at 18 or early. Phaneuf looked better coming in than he does know. Bad coaching combined with a lack of hockey smarts.

Physical maturity is a major factor. Defensemen require greater physicality and are subject to more hitting. Forwards can get by without the same level of physical play.

You are correct about the present day trio but the issue, especially for Ovechkin and Malkin is their play without the puck. Also of the three Crosby is ahead significantly from the standpoint of the ability to integrate a team - ability to accept/perform changing roles based on teammates and situations.

Although with Crosby out 2 seasons ago Malkin stepped up and carried the team in his absence. He's been able to assume that top dog role as well as the second fiddle (or equal) role.

 

[Hawksfan12*]

With Duncan Keith, you gotta think a guy like Randy Carlyle. Keith isn't going to be a consistent Norris candidate. He'll be solid for years to come but his window for the Norris is really short. If you want two dmen with Potvin/Robinson type POTENTIAL, think Doughty/Myers. I know Myers doesn't play like them, but he is of their calibre.

I agree that they shouldnt even be compared too those 2 HHOFers but this statement is just stupid.

 

[Jumptheshark]

way to early to tell

 

[Trottier]

Don't you think many long time hockey fans said the same kind of things when Potvin was 20 years old?

Not intelligent ones.

Be it 1973 (Potvin's first season) or 2010, the devaluation of greatness, as casually practiced by some, is pathetic. And chronic.

I respect your opinion Bonvie, so don't take that personally. And you are correct - Potvin came with much fanfare...and lived up to it, entirely. Separately, there is ample reason to be excited about Doughty. It ends there, at this point.

 

[Ziostilon]

its just wishful thinking

i don't want to say all the rankings are wrong. but i do have to scratch my head when Potvin and Robinson has retired for this many years.

and i still can't say theres 2+ d-man that are on par if not better than them. Its 2010, theres just so much talent in the league now.

 

[Fredrik_71]

I think the stats of many d-men in the HHOF are inflated to some point. A question? How many d-men will ever get a 1000 points like e.g. Phil Housley? Because the way hockey changes the way to measure greatness should be awards and peer-comparison. I don not see this as a big problem in this forum because people know that e.g. Doug Harvey is a far better d-man than Phil Housley.

Keith and Doughty has a gerat future ahead and in 10-15 years we will know. And if the live up to the thread title it will be a treat to have been around.

/Cheers

PS. Potvin is my favorite d-man ever

 

[Sticks and Pucks]

I agree that they shouldnt even be compared too those 2 HHOFers but this statement is just stupid.

What's wrong with that statement? Yes, Keith could be a late bloomer and I feel that he will be a real solid dman, also a fixture on Team Canada's defence but I don't feel that he will be a consistent Norris Trophy winner. Look at all the dmen coming up. Doughty, Myers, Bogosian, Hedman, Fowler, etc. Doughty and Myers can potentially start dominating the Norris within 3-5 years. Then look at guys like Shea Weber, Mike Green, and Erik Johnson who are starting to come into their primes. Unless Keith can become like Lidstrom and hit his prime in his 30s, his window of opportunity is right now and I don't think he will be another Lidstrom because first, Lidstrom-type dmen come once in a generation and secondly, their styles are different. Lidstrom's style allows him to be the top dman even in his mid 30s. Anyway, being a Randy Carlyle-type defenceman would not be a slap in the face.