Kadri player discssion thread.

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RLF

Registered User
May 5, 2014
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I wonder who this might be directed towards? :sarcasm:

But yeah, being able to evaluate the validity of ones argument is also a lost art. Personally, I connect it intimately with the link between arguments and opinion. For me, the arguments should always shape the opinion. Oftentimes, people let the (predetermined) opinion shape the arguments. When that happens, discussions devolve into just two sides battling to try and "score points".

Not directed at anyone, just my observation/opinion in regards to your opinion on listening...if you feel it was directed at you, then maybe it's because your comments about listening and opinion/arguments are directed toward me?
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
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Not directed at anyone, just my observation/opinion in regards to your opinion on listening...if you feel it was directed at you, then maybe it's because your comments about listening and opinion/arguments are directed toward me?

Not at all, while we disagree on things I think you do listen to my arguments.

So... hug? :naughty:
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
30,781
24,055
Yeah.

Have to say though, that some of that cockiness just seem like people misunderstanding him though. At least to me. Listening to the Tavares comment, it was more about how amazing JT is to combine the talent with the work ethic he has, and how that separates him from other talented players.

Doesn't surprise me though. Nowadays people are much more focused on trying to score quick points or get a reaction than they are of actually trying to understand others. Listening has become a lost art.

I agree. A few thoughts:

Kadri's "cocky" quotes taken in a vacuum are no big deal.

The Toronto media being what it is, it would probably be smart to be careful about what you say and when in doubt, keep your mouth shut. There's a great scene in Bull Durham to that effect, anyone who has seen the movie should know what I'm talking about.

Some people say Kadri has an "attitude problem" and the quotes are proof of that. While IMO they are definitely not proof, it's possible his attitude is a problem and will lead to him being traded if it's not fixed. We don't know what these off-ice issues were that led to his suspension. Maybe they weren't serious at all and had we had a shot at the playoffs, they don't even think about suspending him but because we were out (and perhaps it crossed their mind that losing would be a good thing) they took the opportunity to shake him up a bit when it didn't cost them anything? Or maybe, there's something more serious going on?

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt so I'm not among the crowd who wants him traded and on ths ice, he's one of the few bright spots on this team. I sure would love to know what exactly these off-ice issues are though and if they're serious or just normal growing pains for a young kid who hasn't fully grown up yet.
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
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Skövde, Sweden
I agree. A few thoughts:

Kadri's "cocky" quotes taken in a vacuum are no big deal.

The Toronto media being what it is, it would probably be smart to be careful about what you say and when in doubt, keep your mouth shut. There's a great scene in Bull Durham to that effect, anyone who has seen the movie should know what I'm talking about.

Some people say Kadri has an "attitude problem" and the quotes are proof of that. While IMO they are definitely not proof, it's possible his attitude is a problem and will lead to him being traded if it's not fixed. We don't know what these off-ice issues were that led to his suspension. Maybe they weren't serious at all and had we had a shot at the playoffs, they don't even think about suspending him but because we were out (and perhaps it crossed their mind that losing would be a good thing) they took the opportunity to shake him up a bit when it didn't cost them anything? Or maybe, there's something more serious going on?

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt so I'm not among the crowd who wants him traded and on ths ice, he's one of the few bright spots on this team. I sure would love to know what exactly these off-ice issues are though and if they're serious or just normal growing pains for a young kid who hasn't fully grown up yet.

Well said.
 

RLF

Registered User
May 5, 2014
3,303
890
I agree. A few thoughts:

Kadri's "cocky" quotes taken in a vacuum are no big deal.

The Toronto media being what it is, it would probably be smart to be careful about what you say and when in doubt, keep your mouth shut. There's a great scene in Bull Durham to that effect, anyone who has seen the movie should know what I'm talking about.

Some people say Kadri has an "attitude problem" and the quotes are proof of that. While IMO they are definitely not proof, it's possible his attitude is a problem and will lead to him being traded if it's not fixed. We don't know what these off-ice issues were that led to his suspension. Maybe they weren't serious at all and had we had a shot at the playoffs, they don't even think about suspending him but because we were out (and perhaps it crossed their mind that losing would be a good thing) they took the opportunity to shake him up a bit when it didn't cost them anything? Or maybe, there's something more serious going on?

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt so I'm not among the crowd who wants him traded and on ths ice, he's one of the few bright spots on this team. I sure would love to know what exactly these off-ice issues are though and if they're serious or just normal growing pains for a young kid who hasn't fully grown up yet.

Bolded-that is Nazem's problem as I see it...he can't control himself/mouth. He is a talented player, but play the games and stop feeding the frenzy.

As for his "attitude" issues, unfortunately if we look back, it seems there has always been something or other going on since he has been in the organization. Eakins made comments, Carlyle has had a few iffy comments about Naz. I think the suspension was a message and even Shanny said, there comes a time when you have to grow up and be professional when referring to Naz's suspension. If it were localized to one instance, I doubt he brings that out to the press. I truly believe there are some issues here, but hope he can get it sorted.
 

Hugh Mongusbig

Registered User
Mar 7, 2012
979
486
I agree. A few thoughts:

Kadri's "cocky" quotes taken in a vacuum are no big deal.

The Toronto media being what it is, it would probably be smart to be careful about what you say and when in doubt, keep your mouth shut. There's a great scene in Bull Durham to that effect, anyone who has seen the movie should know what I'm talking about.

Some people say Kadri has an "attitude problem" and the quotes are proof of that. While IMO they are definitely not proof, it's possible his attitude is a problem and will lead to him being traded if it's not fixed. We don't know what these off-ice issues were that led to his suspension. Maybe they weren't serious at all and had we had a shot at the playoffs, they don't even think about suspending him but because we were out (and perhaps it crossed their mind that losing would be a good thing) they took the opportunity to shake him up a bit when it didn't cost them anything? Or maybe, there's something more serious going on?

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt so I'm not among the crowd who wants him traded and on ths ice, he's one of the few bright spots on this team. I sure would love to know what exactly these off-ice issues are though and if they're serious or just normal growing pains for a young kid who hasn't fully grown up yet.

But Naz isn't a kid anymore. He is 25 years old and going on what, his 6th season of professional AHL/NHL hockey?!? He has had plenty of time to grow up and he hasn't for whatever reason..... He has always had a reputation as someone with attitude issues. It wasn't imagined or just made up, it is real, and his attitude issues aren't going away any time soon. guys like that don't change.

When the Leafs are trying to change the culture in the locker room, and on the ice, does it make sense to keep a guy like Kadri around? Especially when you consider in another 2-3 years, he will be looked up to as an established veteran on the team by all the up and coming youngsters... do you really want them to be lead by Kadri?
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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But Naz isn't a kid anymore. He is 25 years old and going on what, his 6th season of professional AHL/NHL hockey?!? He has had plenty of time to grow up and he hasn't for whatever reason..... He has always had a reputation as someone with attitude issues. It wasn't imagined or just made up, it is real, and his attitude issues aren't going away any time soon. guys like that don't change.

When the Leafs are trying to change the culture in the locker room, and on the ice, does it make sense to keep a guy like Kadri around? Especially when you consider in another 2-3 years, he will be looked up to as an established veteran on the team by all the up and coming youngsters... do you really want them to be lead by Kadri?

I'm comfortable letting Babcock make that decision. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
41,321
11,586
Hockey plays aside I am just tired of most of the teams faces. I discovered I dislike virtually every member except Reilly and Jake and Komarov.

*Comment does not apply to our rentals.
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
16,749
Skövde, Sweden
Fair enough, Pookie.

I thought I'd make an evaluation here, of Kadri, to show people how I go about things:

I always start out by doing a statistical analysis.

First, I identify the sample size that makes sense. With Kadri, it makes sense to look at what he's done since coming up full time. It's big enough, and it is rather representative of him as the player he is now*.

Then I start looking at what he's done. First thing I check is general usage. Kadri has played an average of 13:43 TOI 5-on-5 during this period. That's close to top line minutes even strength.

Next thing is possession. The metric I like to use as a basis is CF% RelTM**. Kadri has a 2.1% impact on the possession of others, which is top line impact as well, although just barely. Now personally I like to at least have a look at ZS% here, even though that's heavily disputed. I do this because when working with this, I've found that players that change usage, either by trade or by coaching change, so that their ZS% changes significantly, they always seem to have a notable change in possession numbers as well. Kadri has 5% more defensive zone starts than offensive, a rather notable change. So if anything, he could move up that list possession-wise. His quality of competition is marginally above average, a small difference in a factor that doesn't have a lot of impact. This effect is negligible.

Then we move onto using this possession. Defensively, we know that players impact defense by limiting shots. They don't really make sure that goaltenders see easier shots. That's more system-based. And since we are dealing with quantity here, this part is already covered by looking at possession. Kadri does have a positive impact on our ability to limit shots, but he's much stronger in generating chances. Actual play in the defensive zone is muddy to evaluate statistically until we can compare against actual zone time, but that's ok. Making sure you are there for a short time is very crucial for defense anyway.

Offensively, forwards do impact conversion rates. They are also involved in finishing the play to different degrees. Kadri has a 2.02 Pts/60 over our sample size, which puts him at #49 in the league. This is in part driven by an on-ice shooting percentage of 9.8%, which is 19th in the league. Analyzing this, we find that this is driven up by an unsustainable number in the shortened season. A complete outlier. So that production is a bit on the generous side.

Another thing worth noting is penalty differential. Kadri draws penalties more than most players in the league. I can't find the calculations now, but I once found that his differential gave us enough penalties that if we converted at league-average frequency, it gives us another 8 goals on a season. Not too shabby. Could add that to projected totals, if one wishes.

That wraps up the big part. Now on to special teams. We can ignore PK, Kadri doesn't play it. PP however, is another thing. With PP, I generally judge individual production mostly, along with ice time and unit. Over this period, including last seasons bad performance, he's got 4.08 pts/60, good for #74 in the league***. Note that this is among regular PP players during this period, so it's a group of 121 forwards. Kadri has been our second most effective PP player, despite playing mostly on a significantly less effective secondary unit. I generally like to talk about performance compared to replacement level. Kadri is quite comfortably above it, but he's not exactly excelled at the PP either, although this is probably in part due to not having very strong options with him. Most of the players we've paraded through our second unit has been abysmal.

You can then support these numbers by looking at alternative metrics to see how they support or weaken the picture made here. With Kadri, it pretty much stays the same.

Before I'm done with the statistical analysis, I look through it to see if there's something I'd like to clear up, or something that looks particularly favorable or unfavorable****. Otherwise, I wrap up that part and start looking at personal impressions, mostly when they can add something to the picture.

With Kadri, I see someone who drives the play. Who needs the puck. That's a bit of a problem for him, because he's not good enough to do so on a strong first line. But he doesn't seem like the player who can play a supporting role for a stronger winger either. That's why he's often stuck being a very effective second liner, in my opinion. He needs to be the driving player on a line, and that will most likely be a second line. That in my mind makes a big difference in how you view him, and use him, going forward.

Then there is the off-ice aspect. Kadri has had many issues here, we got the suspension for unprofessional behavior last season. He seems like a follower, rather than a leader, as well. He's approaching UFA status, so any evaluation of him will have to take cap hit into account.

Conclusion:

He can perform at a top line level individually at even strength, but will most likely always be more of a top six option structurally. He's not a PK option, but he is a solid PP player who could be a bit more than that, given opportunity. His penalty drawing is an asset as well. Overall, I'd say he's somewhere in the 70-90 area of forwards in terms of on-ice impact.

However, his fit for the team is very much in the question. He needs to show and continue to show that he can clean up the off-ice professionalism, first of all. Then there's the question of contract.

In team building, I think cap and asset management is key. For that, you look at establishing a core group that you keep together and build on. You surround them with as much talent compared to cap hit as you can. When that changes, you look to move the player out.

Kadri is to me a second tier player. He's not a core player, the way I see them. He's a very strong support player, the type that you really want to keep around. So if he cleans his professionalism up, I'd absolutely love to keep him around long-term if he signs for a very manageable cap hit. But if we pay him what is fair, what his on-ice play deserves, then he should be moved out.

Two more things come to mind though.

One is that I'm a big fan of insulation. Kadri is the perfect player to use as benchmark for Nylander and Marner, the guy they need to beat out to get the big job (top line center), but also the guy that makes sure that they don't have to get thrown into the deep end to sink-or-swim.

The other is a factor that I'm starting to believe is key to center evaluation, especially for top six jobs. It's the Crosby factor, the head-to-head factor. I call it that since Crosby is the best player in the world, but head-to-head against other top centers he doesn't always come out ahead. Bergeron though is not one of the absolutely best centers, but he is just as effective playing against Crosby or Getzlaf as he is playing against Bozak or Desharnais. Having centers that can perform and compete against other top players is something I'd value a lot, so I'd be very interested in seeing such stats for Kadri.

That's it. For now. Anyone still awake?

* Sometimes too large sample size isn't good. If you have a player in his prime, looking at what he did during his developing years means you are judging him partially on performances far from what he could offer you now. With Kadri, it makes no sense to look at what he did when he was called up and down and thrown on the wing, because that is not the player he is now.

** It judges the impact a player has on his teammates, therefor doing a good job of isolating what players drive possession a lot compared to those that are just on a good line and a good team.

*** Note however, that PP is still hard to judge statistically. Good powerplays can drive either conversion, like Tampa Bay, or quantity, like San Jose. Only thing common is production rate, and it's a bit volatile. Other than for that, you have to look almost exclusively within the team and unit, at how often they are used and to what effect.

**** As an example, I've been vocal in saying that Dion's abysmal possession numbers are a bit unfair, just like those of Gardiner is a bit flattering. This is since we've been playing a system that almost demands that you have the ability to skate yourself out of problem, due to lacking forward support. Since most metrics are based on relative numbers, this means the numbers makes too much of the ability to skate the puck out, compared to passing the puck out.
 
Last edited:

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
30,781
24,055
Fair enough, Pookie.

I thought I'd make an evaluation here, of Kadri, to show people how I go about things:

I always start out by doing a statistical analysis.

First, I identify the sample size that makes sense. With Kadri, it makes sense to look at what he's done since coming up full time. It's big enough, and it is rather representative of him as the player he is now*.

Then I start looking at what he's done. First thing I check is general usage. Kadri has played an average of 13:43 TOI 5-on-5 during this period. That's close to top line minutes even strength.

Next thing is possession. The metric I like to use as a basis is CF% RelTM**. Kadri has a 2.1% impact on the possession of others, which is top line impact as well, although just barely. Now personally I like to at least have a look at ZS% here, even though that's heavily disputed. I do this because when working with this, I've found that players that change usage, either by trade or by coaching change, so that their ZS% changes significantly, they always seem to have a notable change in possession numbers as well. Kadri has 5% more defensive zone starts than offensive, a rather notable change. So if anything, he could move up that list possession-wise. His quality of competition is marginally above average, a small difference in a factor that doesn't have a lot of impact. This effect is negligible.

Then we move onto using this possession. Defensively, we know that players impact defense by limiting shots. They don't really make sure that goaltenders see easier shots. That's more system-based. And since we are dealing with quantity here, this part is already covered by looking at possession. Kadri does have a positive impact on our ability to limit shots, but he's much stronger in generating chances. Actual play in the defensive zone is muddy to evaluate statistically until we can compare against actual zone time, but that's ok. Making sure you are there for a short time is very crucial for defense anyway.

Offensively, forwards do impact conversion rates. They are also involved in finishing the play to different degrees. Kadri has a 2.02 Pts/60 over our sample size, which puts him at #49 in the league. This is in part driven by an on-ice shooting percentage of 9.8%, which is 19th in the league. Analyzing this, we find that this is driven up by an unsustainable number in the shortened season. A complete outlier. So that production is a bit on the generous side.

Another thing worth noting is penalty differential. Kadri draws penalties more than most players in the league. I can't find the calculations now, but I once found that his differential gave us enough penalties that if we converted at league-average frequency, it gives us another 8 goals on a season. Not too shabby. Could add that to projected totals, if one wishes.

That wraps up the big part. Now on to special teams. We can ignore PK, Kadri doesn't play it. PP however, is another thing. With PP, I generally judge individual production mostly, along with ice time and unit. Over this period, including last seasons bad performance, he's got 4.08 pts/60, good for #74 in the league***. Note that this is among regular PP players during this period, so it's a group of 121 forwards. Kadri has been our second most effective PP player, despite playing mostly on a significantly less effective secondary unit. I generally like to talk about performance compared to replacement level. Kadri is quite comfortably above it, but he's not exactly excelled at the PP either, although this is probably in part due to not having very strong options with him. Most of the players we've paraded through our second unit has been abysmal.

You can then support these numbers by looking at alternative metrics to see how they support or weaken the picture made here. With Kadri, it pretty much stays the same.

Before I'm done with the statistical analysis, I look through it to see if there's something I'd like to clear up, or something that looks particularly favorable or unfavorable****. Otherwise, I wrap up that part and start looking at personal impressions, mostly when they can add something to the picture.

With Kadri, I see someone who drives the play. Who needs the puck. That's a bit of a problem for him, because he's not good enough to do so on a strong first line. But he doesn't seem like the player who can play a supporting role for a stronger winger either. That's why he's often stuck being a very effective second liner, in my opinion. He needs to be the driving player on a line, and that will most likely be a second line. That in my mind makes a big difference in how you view him, and use him, going forward.

Then there is the off-ice aspect. Kadri has had many issues here, we got the suspension for unprofessional behavior last season. He seems like a follower, rather than a leader, as well. He's approaching UFA status, so any evaluation of him will have to take cap hit into account.

Conclusion:

He can perform at a top line level individually at even strength, but will most likely always be more of a top six option structurally. He's not a PK option, but he is a solid PP player who could be a bit more than that, given opportunity. His penalty drawing is an asset as well. Overall, I'd say he's somewhere in the 70-90 area of forwards in terms of on-ice impact.

However, his fit for the team is very much in the question. He needs to show and continue to show that he can clean up the off-ice professionalism, first of all. Then there's the question of contract.

In team building, I think cap and asset management is key. For that, you look at establishing a core group that you keep together and build on. You surround them with as much talent compared to cap hit as you can. When that changes, you look to move the player out.

Kadri is to me a second tier player. He's not a core player, the way I see them. He's a very strong support player, the type that you really want to keep around. So if he cleans his professionalism up, I'd absolutely love to keep him around long-term if he signs for a very manageable cap hit. But if we pay him what is fair, what his on-ice play deserves, then he should be moved out.

Two more things come to mind though.

One is that I'm a big fan of insulation. Kadri is the perfect player to use as benchmark for Nylander and Marner, the guy they need to beat out to get the big job (top line center), but also the guy that makes sure that they don't have to get thrown into the deep end to sink-or-swim.

The other is a factor that I'm starting to believe is key to center evaluation, especially for top six jobs. It's the Crosby factor, the head-to-head factor. I call it that since Crosby is the best player in the world, but head-to-head against other top centers he doesn't always come out ahead. Bergeron though is not one of the absolutely best centers, but he is just as effective playing against Crosby or Getzlaf as he is playing against Bozak or Desharnais. Having centers that can perform and compete against other top players is something I'd value a lot, so I'd be very interested in seeing such stats for Kadri.

That's it. For now. Anyone still awake?

* Sometimes too large sample size isn't good. If you have a player in his prime, looking at what he did during his developing years means you are judging him partially on performances far from what he could offer you now. With Kadri, it makes no sense to look at what he did when he was called up and down and thrown on the wing, because that is not the player he is now.

** It judges the impact a player has on his teammates, therefor doing a good job of isolating what players drive possession a lot compared to those that are just on a good line and a good team.

*** Note however, that PP is still hard to judge statistically. Good powerplays can drive either conversion, like Tampa Bay, or quantity, like San Jose. Only thing common is production rate, and it's a bit volatile. Other than for that, you have to look almost exclusively within the team and unit, at how often they are used and to what effect.

**** As an example, I've been vocal in saying that Dion's abysmal possession numbers are a bit unfair, just like those of Gardiner is a bit flattering. This is since we've been playing a system that almost demands that you have the ability to skate yourself out of problem, due to lacking forward support. Since most metrics are based on relative numbers, this means the numbers makes too much of the ability to skate the puck out, compared to passing the puck out.

Your overall conclusions match how I see Kadri so I guess I'd say your method is pretty good. Regarding bolded - that's interesting. I've never thought it that way - that if we pay him what's fair then we should move him out and I'm not sure I agree. I would think that there should be no problem paying him what's fair.

I do think that it's hard to say what a fair price for Kadri might be and obviously his play this season will have big impact on that as well. His production has been inconsistent, but that's partly because of how he's been used (or misused at times). That may be a bit unfair to him but that's life and it may enable us to sign for a bit of a discount. Maybe it'll be something like if he plays great this season, 6.5m a year would be what his on-ice play merits but because he hasn't been able to establish himself at that level for multiple consecutive years, we might be able to sign him for a bit less than 6m? But part of it is also that if he does reach a "new level" this year, he won't have been at that level for long so he won't be able to demand as much as he would be had he played at that level for several years. Or to put it another way, if he plays this year like he deserves 6.5m, that's just one year and it may not make sense to commit to him long-term at that price - that a bit of discount from that price is reasonable?

A bit premature perhaps to start tossing numbers around as there's a long season ahead but I'm already on record as saying he'll play well this year and get a 5 year deal for 5.5-6m (at least that's what I think I said and it still seems reasonable for both sides assuming he plays really well this season). I'm just glad we have a management team in place who I have faith in so I'm not really worried about what will happen. And yes I see a lot of value in having him around to insulate the guys who are hopefully our future.

And the off-ice issues are of course the wild-card in all this. We have no way of knowing what they are or how big an issue they are so we can only hope there's nothing too serious there, that Kadri will take advantage of a fresh start (at least I assume that a fresh start is available to all our players) and when he signs a long-term deal, that will be the end of it and there won't be any reason to ever mention off-ice issues with him again.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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St. Paul, MN
If he plays well, puts of above average possession and proves to Babcock he has matured I can see him being offered a 5ish year deal at 5-6million price range.

It will be interesting to see if management's 'hardball' negotiating for his pay two contracts will be an advantage or not when going into the next contract extension.

If management isn't satisfied with him I expect to see him flipped Ina "hockey trade" similar to JVR for Schenn by this year's deadline.
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
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Skövde, Sweden
Your overall conclusions match how I see Kadri so I guess I'd say your method is pretty good. Regarding bolded - that's interesting. I've never thought it that way - that if we pay him what's fair then we should move him out and I'm not sure I agree. I would think that there should be no problem paying him what's fair.

I do think that it's hard to say what a fair price for Kadri might be and obviously his play this season will have big impact on that as well. His production has been inconsistent, but that's partly because of how he's been used (or misused at times). That may be a bit unfair to him but that's life and it may enable us to sign for a bit of a discount. Maybe it'll be something like if he plays great this season, 6.5m a year would be what his on-ice play merits but because he hasn't been able to establish himself at that level for multiple consecutive years, we might be able to sign him for a bit less than 6m? But part of it is also that if he does reach a "new level" this year, he won't have been at that level for long so he won't be able to demand as much as he would be had he played at that level for several years. Or to put it another way, if he plays this year like he deserves 6.5m, that's just one year and it may not make sense to commit to him long-term at that price - that a bit of discount from that price is reasonable?

A bit premature perhaps to start tossing numbers around as there's a long season ahead but I'm already on record as saying he'll play well this year and get a 5 year deal for 5.5-6m (at least that's what I think I said and it still seems reasonable for both sides assuming he plays really well this season). I'm just glad we have a management team in place who I have faith in so I'm not really worried about what will happen. And yes I see a lot of value in having him around to insulate the guys who are hopefully our future.

And the off-ice issues are of course the wild-card in all this. We have no way of knowing what they are or how big an issue they are so we can only hope there's nothing too serious there, that Kadri will take advantage of a fresh start (at least I assume that a fresh start is available to all our players) and when he signs a long-term deal, that will be the end of it and there won't be any reason to ever mention off-ice issues with him again.

My line of thinking is pretty much based on trying to be a long-term contending team. Right now it doesn't much matter what we give Kadri. In year 4 and forward it will. (vague guessing at which point we'll start putting things together)

A long-term contending team needs to beat the cap, otherwise they'll not retain enough quality players to be just that. With beat the cap I mean that we need to get much more quality into the lineup than what that quality costs on the market. That's why I think we can pay a small, core group what they deserve, but if we do it for the support group (which I think Kadri will be part of), then we'll run out of cap very quickly.

The trick at that part will be to move the player for good return, and trust our scouting and developing to internally replace the player.

The idea is to have a structure where we have:

- Core group. 3-4 players. Long-term stability and retaining key. Build around.
- Support group. 7-8 players. Good players that get cap and term, but only to a limit. Disposable if they become pricey.
- Depth group. Based solely on trying to squeeze out as much performance per cap dollar as possible.

It's how I think a cap era team ought to be run. Chicago sometimes does this, but they sometimes don't. Personally, I think they could have replaced both Crawford and Bickell quite easily, and it would have saved them quite a lot of cap problems.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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My line of thinking is pretty much based on trying to be a long-term contending team. Right now it doesn't much matter what we give Kadri. In year 4 and forward it will. (vague guessing at which point we'll start putting things together)

A long-term contending team needs to beat the cap, otherwise they'll not retain enough quality players to be just that. With beat the cap I mean that we need to get much more quality into the lineup than what that quality costs on the market. That's why I think we can pay a small, core group what they deserve, but if we do it for the support group (which I think Kadri will be part of), then we'll run out of cap very quickly.

The trick at that part will be to move the player for good return, and trust our scouting and developing to internally replace the player.

The idea is to have a structure where we have:

- Core group. 3-4 players. Long-term stability and retaining key. Build around.
- Support group. 7-8 players. Good players that get cap and term, but only to a limit. Disposable if they become pricey.
- Depth group. Based solely on trying to squeeze out as much performance per cap dollar as possible.

It's how I think a cap era team ought to be run. Chicago sometimes does this, but they sometimes don't. Personally, I think they could have replaced both Crawford and Bickell quite easily, and it would have saved them quite a lot of cap problems.

I agree completely that the cap has to be managed very carefully. To this end, it's important (maybe imperative is a better word) to get some quality play at a bargain price. One way to do this, is to have young players playing at a high level before they get paid a lot. Hopefully in 5-7 years we'll get there. Or, you can win some gambles locking up players up eraly (like Chicago did with Keith which was a huge win for them). There also may come a point where teams question of their stars are really worth top dollar - that may be happening right now with TB and Stamkos, we really don't know. There are many approaches, I don't think it's as simple as pay the core guys fairly and try to get everyone else at a discount. I mentioned Keith - he's obviously a core guy, maybe we can identify those core guys early and sign them up early - gamble a bit and hopefully win.

I also think you're absolutely right that with Kadri, it doesn't matter now but may matter in 4 years or so, I think that's the earliest it will become an issue and it may take a bit longer than that so giving him a 5 year deal starting with next season is a very small risk. And the cap may rise so it may not be an issue at all. Right now we have hardly anybody we have to worry about signing other than Rielly. Gardiner is signed, so is JVR, other than Kadri who else is there? He's one of the few talents we have, I'd hate to think if he proves himself worthy we'd have to let him go because we can't agree on the money. It's not like we're talking about an 8 year deal for superstar money.

Or look at it this way, we don't even have a core group yet so we should have no problem paying our support group for the time being.
 

rdawg1234

Registered User
Jul 2, 2012
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Honestly I dont see this guy having a long-term future with us, in my eyes he's a stopgap until we vastly improve the talent on this team.
 

TML1

Registered User
Oct 18, 2014
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Ryan Oreilly, Patrick Kane, Mike Richards, Zack Kassian and Kadris got an attitude problem. Kadri has issues. What a croc of Shit!!
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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Honestly I dont see this guy having a long-term future with us, in my eyes he's a stopgap until we vastly improve the talent on this team.

Well if Kadri's going to be around until we "vastly" improve the talent, it could be a while.
 

rdawg1234

Registered User
Jul 2, 2012
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Well if Kadri's going to be around until we "vastly" improve the talent, it could be a while.

We already have some great forward pieces in the minors and will be adding another massive piece this offseason, vastly improved shouldn't take more than 2 more seasons(this one and next) IMO

You already have Nylander being built as a centre, if you add a mathews, Stamkos, or if Marner pans out at C I see no reason to keep a guy like Kadri around, all 4 of these guys look to be better options imo.
 

Ovate

Registered User
Dec 17, 2014
4,105
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Toronto
We already have some great forward pieces in the minors and will be adding another massive piece this offseason, vastly improved shouldn't take more than 2 more seasons(this one and next) IMO

You already have Nylander being built as a centre, if you add a mathews, Stamkos, or if Marner pans out at C I see no reason to keep a guy like Kadri around, all 4 of these guys look to be better options imo.

Stamkos and Marner both play RW too. I'd rather have Kadri as our 2C and one of them at RW than have them at 2C and some scrub at RW.
 
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