Kadri player discssion thread.

[Deez Nuts]

Who are you referring to? I hope it's not me as I've gone out of my way more than once to say things like "I'm not saying Kadri>Zetterberg". It's these strawmen like ("#1C", "better than Zetterberg/Tavares", )that make it hard to have a discussion and I've never seen anyone make these claims.



I believe this is true. I remember looking at some details for that year, what I found IIRC was that the claim that he benefited from being in "mid-season" form when the season started was false - his first 10 games he produced roughly at the same pace as the rest of the season but yes, he did fade away at the end. I don't know if he did the same 2 years ago, if so, then there might be a legit concern about him producing over 82 games. If that is the case, we can only hope his new-found devotion to conditioning in the summer helps with this.

Yes I was referring to you. But when you showed Kadri's ppg rank and used Zetterberg's rank to just compare I did not interpret this as you comparing the players as a whole, nor was your point Kadri>Zetterberg. I just wanted to point out that if you changed the sample size the ranking change significantly. I know some posters here like to spin things into you claiming that Kadri is in the same tier as Zetterberg which I know is not your intention.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'll never understand why people consider cockiness to be a necessarily a bad trait. I like it when players actually develop personalities that are more interesting than the stereotypical hockey player.

I agree. That said, because the Toronto sports media is a nightmare situation, I would think that Babs, or Shanny or Lou or whoever had a talk with Kadri before this season and "politely suggested" to him to ease up on comments that could be even remotely construed as being controversial. But yeah, me personally, I don't mind cockiness in a player. All good players have ego's IMO, some just don't let them show very often.

 

[Deez Nuts]

Whether or not he's a multiple 30 goal scorer is besides the point. Kessel could not produce under Horacek and the same could be said about Kadri and the rest of our crew. Kadri's ES points were in line with the prior season's meaning that he struggled mightily on the PP. If he were to replicate his PP performance from the year before, he'd have 11 more points: 50 in total.

Would this thread still have the same number of pages? Probably.

I don't think the fact that Kessel has produced goals year in and year out with borderline #2 C's is irrelavant. Kessel has established himself as a top sniper in the NHL and is top 10 in points over the last 5 years. The rest of his game leaves a lot to be desired but that is not the point. Whereas the jury is still out on Kadri. Some think he has top line potential while others think he is a third liner.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yes I was referring to you. But when you showed Kadri's ppg rank and used Zetterberg's rank to just compare I did not interpret this as you comparing the players as a whole, nor was your point Kadri>Zetterberg. I just wanted to point out that if you changed the sample size the ranking change significantly. I know some posters here like to spin things into you claiming than Kadri is in the same tier as Zetterberg which I know is not your intention.

Cool, I'm glad you didn't fall for the spin.

I remember seeing some article which mentioned Kadri's awesome ES P/60 during the 48 game season, I never knew he actually led the league in that category, my mind was blown. Of course I never took that to mean that he's as good (or better LOL) than all those guys he was ahead of, but I think I threw it out from time to time in response to the "Kadri is garbage" etc. comments that appear here on a regular basis.

That season is of course a distant memory and Kadri will almost certainly never approach that kind league-leading productivity again. At the same time, I've seen many posters claim Bozak > Kadri pointing to last years point totals and dismissing Kadri as a "39 point" player. I have offered the proverbial gentlemens bet to these people, I'm willing to bet on any one of numerous offensive categories for this season, so far, nobody has wanted to take me up on that offer.

Well there was one, a poster by the name of Hanifin (who has since changed his username). I have it written down somwhere, I believe the bet is who has the higher PPG this season. We'll see what happens. I'm pretty confident Kadri will end up with numbers indicative of an above average #2C. I'd be thrilled if Bozak did the same.

 

[Deez Nuts]

Cool, I'm glad you didn't fall for the spin.

I remember seeing some article which mentioned Kadri's awesome ES P/60 during the 48 game season, I never knew he actually led the league in that category, my mind was blown. Of course I never took that to mean that he's as good (or better LOL) than all those guys he was ahead of, but I think I threw it out from time to time in response to the "Kadri is garbage" etc. comments that appear here on a regular basis.

That season is of course a distant memory and Kadri will almost certainly never approach that kind league-leading productivity again. At the same time, I've seen many posters claim Bozak > Kadri pointing to last years point totals and dismissing Kadri as a "39 point" player. I have offered the proverbial gentlemens bet to these people, I'm willing to bet on any one of numerous offensive categories for this season, so far, nobody has wanted to take me up on that offer.

Well there was one, a poster by the name of Hanifin (who has since changed his username). I have it written down somwhere, I believe the bet is who has the higher PPG this season. We'll see what happens. I'm pretty confident Kadri will end up with numbers indicative of an above average #2C. I'd be thrilled if Bozak did the same.

I remember msg'ing all my jerk Canuck fan buddies everytime Kadri scored a goal that year and actually thought he had a chance at leading the league in scoring. That is the reason I remember him slowing down to end the season, he CHOKED (just kidding)! The thing is, even if he put's up 50-55 points, the Kadri haters will still want him gone. For me, it's his overall character I seem to despise, his lame ass cliche comments and his suspension for off ice issues that just really bug/concern me. Then there his questionable defensive play, inconcistency and poor FO percentages. I also find people generally do NOT change. It's almost like when someone crosses you, no matter how many times they apologize you will always remember the negative.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

One thing that I heard about one of other young players, is that they actively seeked/pestered their coach about being given/trusted with PK minutes. If Kadri would actively do the same, it would make him twice the player and remove the questioning of his 'questionable defensive play'.

Holland also had poor faceoff numbers when on the PK. But to make it simple Kadri could easily follow up Bozak after the draws (meaning he doesn't have to take faceoffs on the PK) to kill penalties.

 

[Ovate]

One thing that I heard about one of other young players, is that they actively seeked/pestered their coach about being given/trusted with PK minutes. If Kadri would actively do the same, it would make him twice the player and remove the questioning of his 'questionable defensive play'.

Holland also had poor faceoff numbers when on the PK. But to make it simple Kadri could easily follow up Bozak after the draws (meaning he doesn't have to take faceoffs on the PK) to kill penalties.

Penalty killing is barely related to 5v5 defensive play. We only need 4 PKers, just leave it to the role players like Winnik and Komarov and save the energy of our best players.

And anyone who's criticizing Kadri's 5v5 defensive play is just misinformed.

 

[cookie]

I don't think the fact that Kessel has produced goals year in and year out with borderline #2 C's is irrelavant. Kessel has established himself as a top sniper in the NHL and is top 10 in points over the last 5 years. The rest of his game leaves a lot to be desired but that is not the point. Whereas the jury is still out on Kadri. Some think he has top line potential while others think he is a third liner.

If you have a perennial point-per-game, 30 goal scorer struggling to score and also have every other player having the same scoring issues under Horacek... something is up. All our core guys: Phaneuf, Lupul, JVR, Kessel and even Kadri underproduced last season. Surprisingly enough, Kadri's ES production remained steady whereas Kessel's PP production increased a little bit (supposedly) on the expense of his ES points.

Kadri: 2013-14 ES 32pt; PP 18pt || 2014-15 ES 31pt; PP 7pt
Kessel 2013-14 ES 60pt; PP 20pt || 2014-15 ES 36pt; PP 25pt

Either he forgot how to play the PP or there were personnel troubles that caused Naz to score less than half of what he did. Maybe the PP2 had too much Clarkson?

 

[Menzinger]

If you have a perennial point-per-game, 30 goal scorer struggling to score and also have every other player having the same scoring issues under Horacek... something is up. All our core guys: Phaneuf, Lupul, JVR, Kessel and even Kadri underproduced last season. Surprisingly enough, Kadri's ES production remained steady whereas Kessel's PP production increased a little bit (supposedly) on the expense of his ES points.

Kadri: 2013-14 ES 32pt; PP 18pt || 2014-15 ES 31pt; PP 7pt
Kessel 2013-14 ES 60pt; PP 20pt || 2014-15 ES 36pt; PP 25pt

Either he forgot how to play the PP or there were personnel troubles that caused Naz to score less than half of what he did. Maybe the PP2 had too much Clarkson?

Scoring was down team wide - interesting to see what the main cause was - Horachek's new systems (ie the need to learn a new ways of strategy or perhaps that Horachek's way of the game simply leads to less goals), or perhaps the team was utterly demoralized. The answer is likely a combination of these different factors - nevertheless it's hard to come down on an individual player for scoring a bit below their average scoring rates hen.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I remember msg'ing all my jerk Canuck fan buddies everytime Kadri scored a goal that year and actually thought he had a chance at leading the league in scoring. That is the reason I remember him slowing down to end the season, he CHOKED (just kidding)! The thing is, even if he put's up 50-55 points, the Kadri haters will still want him gone. For me, it's his overall character I seem to despise, his lame ass cliche comments and his suspension for off ice issues that just really bug/concern me. Then there his questionable defensive play, inconcistency and poor FO percentages. I also find people generally do NOT change. It's almost like when someone crosses you, no matter how many times they apologize you will always remember the negative.

I think he's fine defensively, FO% is one small part of overall play so not worried about that either and as far as consistency goes, all things considered he's been one of our most consistent players for the last 3 years, maybe that's not saying much but there it is.

As far as character and off-ice issues go, I'll reserve judgement there. Don't know what the off-ice issues are so hard for me to take a stand there. Are a couple of cliche comments just that (dumb comments) or are they indicative of deeper issues? Again, I just don't know. I think everyone has a clean slate this year, it's up to him to do with it what he can and I'll trust management to make the right decision.

People do change (IMO). It doesn't happen often but it does happen. I think Kadri hasn't gotten a fair shake here from coaches, if I was Babs I'd tell him he's made some mistakes but at the same time, he hasn't been treated right either. I'd say "I promise to be fair with you, this is the first day of the rest of your career - what do you want to do with it"?

Either way, I think he'll have his best year on the ice, probably 50-60 points building on his improved 2-way play and if he is traded, he should fetch a good return. I think he'll be given every chance to prove himself as he's one of the few bright spots on this roster and I think Babs would like to win some games here and there.

 

[Deez Nuts]

I think he's fine defensively, FO% is one small part of overall play so not worried about that either and as far as consistency goes, all things considered he's been one of our most consistent players for the last 3 years, maybe that's not saying much but there it is.

As far as character and off-ice issues go, I'll reserve judgement there. Don't know what the off-ice issues are so hard for me to take a stand there. Are a couple of cliche comments just that (dumb comments) or are they indicative of deeper issues? Again, I just don't know. I think everyone has a clean slate this year, it's up to him to do with it what he can and I'll trust management to make the right decision.

People do change (IMO). It doesn't happen often but it does happen. I think Kadri hasn't gotten a fair shake here from coaches, if I was Babs I'd tell him he's made some mistakes but at the same time, he hasn't been treated right either. I'd say "I promise to be fair with you, this is the first day of the rest of your career - what do you want to do with it"?

Either way, I think he'll have his best year on the ice, probably 50-60 points building on his improved 2-way play and if he is traded, he should fetch a good return. I think he'll be given every chance to prove himself as he's one of the few bright spots on this roster and I think Babs would like to win some games here and there.

I'm all Kadri'd out for the day.......let's resume in a few days whem I will have a 4 game sample size to crucify him .

 

[cookie]

I think he's fine defensively, FO% is one small part of overall play so not worried about that either and as far as consistency goes, all things considered he's been one of our most consistent players for the last 3 years, maybe that's not saying much but there it is.

As far as character and off-ice issues go, I'll reserve judgement there. Don't know what the off-ice issues are so hard for me to take a stand there. Are a couple of cliche comments just that (dumb comments) or are they indicative of deeper issues? Again, I just don't know. I think everyone has a clean slate this year, it's up to him to do with it what he can and I'll trust management to make the right decision.

People do change (IMO). It doesn't happen often but it does happen. I think Kadri hasn't gotten a fair shake here from coaches, if I was Babs I'd tell him he's made some mistakes but at the same time, he hasn't been treated right either. I'd say "I promise to be fair with you, this is the first day of the rest of your career - what do you want to do with it"?

Either way, I think he'll have his best year on the ice, probably 50-60 points building on his improved 2-way play and if he is traded, he should fetch a good return. I think he'll be given every chance to prove himself as he's one of the few bright spots on this roster and I think Babs would like to win some games here and there.

Never really understood the love of the faceoff statistic. Clean wins are so few and far between and what takes place after a scrum is anyone's guess. At the end of the day, unless you can win the faceoffs cleanly and with regularity, there's a minimal positive outcome.

I like how the league's put a bit more emphasis on where the faceoff takes place. Coaches will have a hard time finding who wins the faceoffs, where they win them, and with what regularity they win.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm all Kadri'd out for the day.......let's resume in a few days whem I will have a 4 game sample size to crucify him .

That sounds reasonable. Wait ... what am I supposed to do to pass the time while at work? And please don't say work.

 

[Trapper]

All this Kadri debate, chances are he might not even be on this team when they are ready to contend. We are at least 5 years away. That puts him at 30. Most Cup contending/winning teams have completely turned over their roster by then. Remember when Kessel was a key core component to this Cup winning team?
No team wins the Cup without at least (2 out of 3) elite center, elite D or elite Goalie. That means proven players at those positions. We have none of these at present.

 

[Lightsol]

Why the hell are people saying that because Kadri will only end up as a very solid 2 way 2C we should be trading him?

I'd be willing to bet that though he may turn out this way, his next contract offer won't reflect a solid 2 way 2C.

 

[Durrr]

All this Kadri debate, chances are he might not even be on this team when they are ready to contend. We are at least 5 years away. That puts him at 30. Most Cup contending/winning teams have completely turned over their roster by then. Remember when Kessel was a key core component to this Cup winning team?
No team wins the Cup without at least (2 out of 3) elite center, elite D or elite Goalie. That means proven players at those positions. We have none of these at present.

All things considered, we probably really aren't 5 years away from beginning to take shots at the post season. If you believe that Rielly, Marner and Nylander will all be core pieces (and most contending team's have 4-5 real "core pieces"), then 2/3 of them will already be entering their prime within the next 3 years (this is using those estimates that the prime age is 23-27). We will obviously be adding to this core, but that doesn't mean we are 5 years away. Absolutely no reason that if Kadri cements himself as a valuable player going forward that he couldn't be around going into our better years.

Lots of playoff teams have vets on the line ups, so can we stop pretending that players are some how useless after they turn 30? It's hilarious because in Leaf land, Kadri (an actual top 6 center) is constantly overlooked from being a valuable player, yet his draft-mate E.Kane, was just traded to Buffalo (a rebuilding team) and is being labeled as a potential core player.

 

[Gabriel426]

I agree. That said, because the Toronto sports media is a nightmare situation, I would think that Babs, or Shanny or Lou or whoever had a talk with Kadri before this season and "politely suggested" to him to ease up on comments that could be even remotely construed as being controversial. But yeah, me personally, I don't mind cockiness in a player. All good players have ego's IMO, some just don't let them show very often.

It depends on the player performances. If Kadri can score like Ovie or Stamkos, or lead the team like Toews or play like Kopitar. He could say whatever he wants bc he backs it up with his play.

 

[Ovate]

I'd be willing to bet that though he may turn out this way, his next contract offer won't reflect a solid 2 way 2C.

What does a solid 2 way 2C get? If we can sign Kadri for something in the 4.5M-6M range (depending on his play this year), then it's a good deal.

 

[Trapper]

All things considered, we probably really aren't 5 years away from beginning to take shots at the post season. If you believe that Rielly, Marner and Nylander will all be core pieces (and most contending team's have 4-5 real "core pieces"), then 2/3 of them will already be entering their prime within the next 3 years (this is using those estimates that the prime age is 23-27). We will obviously be adding to this core, but that doesn't mean we are 5 years away. Absolutely no reason that if Kadri cements himself as a valuable player going forward that he couldn't be around going into our better years.

Lots of playoff teams have vets on the line ups, so can we stop pretending that players are some how useless after they turn 30? It's hilarious because in Leaf land, Kadri (an actual top 6 center) is constantly overlooked from being a valuable player, yet his draft-mate E.Kane, was just traded to Buffalo (a rebuilding team) and is being labeled as a potential core player.

Age is important because it's the salary that goes with it. These aren't vets like Winnik/Spaling dollar wise. You can't afford to pay a new prime core dollars and vets like JVR/Kadri/Bernier big/long term deals. It doesn't work.
That's why teams have said goodbye to Leddy/Boychuk/Ladd/Buff/Versteeg/Soderberg etc. Etc. Not washed up, commanding to much. You can't commit to pay everyone.

 

[leafs in five]

Age is important because it's the salary that goes with it. These aren't vets like Winnik/Spaling dollar wise. You can't afford to pay a new prime core dollars and vets like JVR/Kadri/Bernier big/long term deals. It doesn't work.
That's why teams have said goodbye to Leddy/Boychuk/Ladd/Buff/Versteeg/Soderberg etc. Etc. Not washed up, commanding to much. You can't commit to pay everyone.

those were either good teams or teams in cap trouble or both. the Leafs are neither.

imo Kadri is worth further investment, i think at 5m per he would have suitors if the team made him available.

 

[leafs in five]

what do you imagine the cap to be when you say it will not be not possible to pay Rielly/Nylander/Marner rookie and RFA salaries while paying 5-6 each for JVR/Kadri/Bernier?

 

[RLF]

It depends on the player performances. If Kadri can score like Ovie or Stamkos, or lead the team like Toews or play like Kopitar. He could say whatever he wants bc he backs it up with his play.

This^^ He can be a bit cocky, and confidence is a good thing. But, when you start coming out and saying some of the comments he does and then play like a 2nd line centre with questionable off-ice issues pertaining to your lack of professionalism, maturity and commitment...you put a target on your back.

 

[Nithoniniel]

This^^ He can be a bit cocky, and confidence is a good thing. But, when you start coming out and saying some of the comments he does and then play like a 2nd line centre with questionable off-ice issues pertaining to your lack of professionalism, maturity and commitment...you put a target on your back.

Yeah.

Have to say though, that some of that cockiness just seem like people misunderstanding him though. At least to me. Listening to the Tavares comment, it was more about how amazing JT is to combine the talent with the work ethic he has, and how that separates him from other talented players.

Doesn't surprise me though. Nowadays people are much more focused on trying to score quick points or get a reaction than they are of actually trying to understand others. Listening has become a lost art.

 

[RLF]

Yeah.

Have to say though, that some of that cockiness just seem like people misunderstanding him though. At least to me. Listening to the Tavares comment, it was more about how amazing JT is to combine the talent with the work ethic he has, and how that separates him from other talented players.

Doesn't surprise me though. Nowadays people are much more focused on trying to score quick points or get a reaction than they are of actually trying to understand others. Listening has become a lost art.

I agree on the JT one, although he did say talent wise he didn't see much difference, so he brings it upon himself was my point. He could have just said what he thought of JT and not compared himself..., but he just doesn't seem to be able to control himself. That is on him and comes across pretty cocky and I would say, an ill advised comment (which there are many others).

Bolded, I would agree. Although I do find that some who feel people just don't listen...feel that way because they feel everyone should listen to them and can't understand why not everyone does or doesn't agree with what they say. It can be a double edged sword.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I agree on the JT one, although he did say talent wise he didn't see much difference, so he brings it upon himself was my point. He could have just said what he thought of JT and not compared himself..., but he just doesn't seem to be able to control himself. That is on him and comes across pretty cocky and I would say, an ill advised comment (which there are many others).

Bolded, I would agree. Although I do find that some who feel people just don't listen...feel that way because they feel everyone should listen to them and can't understand why not everyone does or doesn't agree with what they say. It can be a double edged sword.

I wonder who this might be directed towards?

But yeah, being able to evaluate the validity of ones argument is also a lost art. Personally, I connect it intimately with the link between arguments and opinion. For me, the arguments should always shape the opinion. Oftentimes, people let the (predetermined) opinion shape the arguments. When that happens, discussions devolve into just two sides battling to try and "score points".