Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko: Part III

[IDvsEGO]

Panarin played two full seasons with Patrick Kane...both want the puck a lot.

Panarin played his first two seasons with Kane. He then went to cbj where he changed his game to be far more puck dominant.

 

[May Rih]

He definitely did not have a good game yesterday, and I saw a lot of the same issues and concerns that he had from the majority of last year. But most guys did not have a good game yesterday, and I chalk it up to shaking off the rust across the board.

We also can't already forget how he looked in the bubble. Last night was bad, but 3 out of his last 4 games have been positive. That's a sign for optimism.

 

[UnSandvich]

Boy, there are some scorching hot takes in here this morning

 

[Crease]

He looked really sharp during the play-in round a few months ago. Not sure what yesterday was all about, but it has me concerned. Is it possible to have a sophomore slump after a bad rookie year?

 

[Rangers in 7]

I’m not overly concerned. Every team gets blown out. He didn’t play well but then again not one single person played a solid game throughout.

 

[Edge]

I dunno, if we look top to bottom, with top being good (relatively speaking) and bottom being awful, I felt like Kakko was in the middle of the pack.

He didn't look awful, he didn't look great. He had two potential scoring chances --- one that went wide (that I thought he had), and one where Panarin couldn't quite get a handle on the puck. If he buries the former, everyone is probably talking about that.

We'll see what happens, but right now this seems more like an emotional response to a shitty game. And that's arguably coming off a week of scrimmages that people got a bit too "up" about.

So I don't know if we've yet found that operating zone for this season.

 

[Crease]

I dunno, if we look top to bottom, with top being good (relatively speaking) and bottom being awful, I felt like Kakko was in the middle of the pack.

He didn't look awful, he didn't look great. He had two potential scoring chances --- one that went wide (that I thought he had), and one where Panarin couldn't quite get a handle on the puck. If he buries the former, everyone is probably talking about that.

We'll see what happens, but right now this seems more like an emotional response to a shitty game. And that's arguably coming off a week of scrimmages that people got a bit too "up" about.

So I don't know if we've yet found that operating zone for this season.

This is it.

I also think some of us are still suffering PTSD over Brendl and Lundmark and have trust issues with first round picks. I'd feel a lot better about Kakko if he showed those glimpses of high end skill more regularly. You saw it in the play-in round in March, even if he wasn't producing. But maybe the consistency will come with time.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Boy, there are some scorching hot takes in here this morning

pass the bourbon. Appears some are living shift to shift.

 

[Edge]

This is it.

I also think some of us are still suffering PTSD over Brendl and Lundmark and have trust issues with first round picks. I'd feel a lot better about Kakko if he showed those glimpses of high end skill more regularly. You saw it in the play-in round in March, even if he wasn't producing. But maybe the consistency will come with time.

Honestly, I'd feel more concerned if his peers were absolutely blowing him away. But we haven't seen that from Hughes or even Dach to this point. The rest of their class isn't pulling away either.

So if Kakko isn't lighting the world on fire, he's falling more in line with the rule for his draft class rather than the exception to this point.

I think consistency is key. There was a shift (maybe the third period) where Kakko kept his feet moving and pivoted to backcheck. He needs to keep doing that.

But in terms of development, again I'm not yet seeing anything that's in contrast to other high picks like Barkov or Huberdeau or others.

I'd like to see how he looks in situations where the team look like it has some semblance of a game plan executed and when he and his linemates should realistically have developed some chemistry.

 

[Zats Muccarello]

I wouldn't say he was a big issue last night. He wasn't good or bad, sort of just there.

The problem was the 8 penalties we took. That hurt his ice time and the team's momentum as a whole.

 

[LokiDog]

I dunno, if we look top to bottom, with top being good (relatively speaking) and bottom being awful, I felt like Kakko was in the middle of the pack.

He didn't look awful, he didn't look great. He had two potential scoring chances --- one that went wide (that I thought he had), and one where Panarin couldn't quite get a handle on the puck. If he buries the former, everyone is probably talking about that.

We'll see what happens, but right now this seems more like an emotional response to a shitty game. And that's arguably coming off a week of scrimmages that people got a bit too "up" about.

So I don't know if we've yet found that operating zone for this season.

I agree with all of this.

But, I do believe that Kakko has some obvious things that stand out as concerning, even if he was pretty okay last night and had a couple of good looks.

His skating isn’t good enough right now for him to become a top offensive weapon. With more explosiveness he has the tools, but his first step is not good and he always seems a little behind the play. He also seems to have some conditioning issues. He’s young and growing into a big body, sure, but last year we blamed it on how much hockey he had played leading up to the season. Now are we going to blame it on how little hockey he’s played leading up to the season?

Again, probably something that can be remedied since he’s so young, but he doesn’t like to use his size or get involved in the physical stuff at this level. He’s gonna have to get dirty to be successful because that’s part of the intrigue of a kid his size. That can be coached to a large extent.

He’s bad off the puck. His metrics always show him as the biggest liability on the team. Another thing that coaching and experience can remedy, but something offense alone won’t make up for. Needs to improve.


I say all of this because, right now, he still has sky high value as a recent #2. He may reach his full potential. I’m not saying he won’t. But even if he does, you don’t win championships by strength of your winger collection. We already have Panarin and Kreider on long deals, Lafreniere will be a stud (it’s evident from day one) and then you have the option to keep a guy like Buch, flip Chytil to wing (where he’d be more successful), Gauthier showed promise last night and Kravstov is coming. Right now, Kakko in a package of some sort can actually land us a long term solution to one of our problem areas, be it LD or C.

If Kakko and Laf both hit their full potential, I’m still not sure we keep both. Panarin makes a ton and we have needs elsewhere in the lineup. It’s a future problem, not a now problem, but eventually we can’t be paying 3 franchise wingers. If Kakko doesn’t reach his potential for some reason and some of the warts I mentioned persist and start to become more widely talked about, his value starts diminishing. We’d also, ideally, like to get competitive while Kreider, Panarin and Zib are still prime aged.

I have no actual problem with Kakko and I’m sure he’ll be fine. But if we can get full value for him, I’d consider moving him regardless of how he’ll pan out. It mitigates the risk of him not reaching 2OA level if things don’t break well for us, but more importantly it deals from a position of strength (which also happens to be the least important position on the roster) to address one of the weaknesses at a much more important position.

 

[Raspewtin]

Ruff gave Hughes almost 22 minutes in a close game, while Quinn gave Kakko less than 12 in a one sided loss. Developing players is not Quinn's priority it seems.

I mean, we took 8 penalties. that had a lot to do with it.

 

[Inferno]

Strome was horrendous...just horrendous..and then panarin just flat out wasn't on his game outside of maybe 2 or 3 plays.

So start there and then think about a 19 year old kakko having a poor game.

I make zero judgements on anyone...kakko or jack johnson or david quinn...all of them.

This was a team effort of suckitude.

 

[Edge]

I agree with all of this.

But, I do believe that Kakko has some obvious things that stand out as concerning, even if he was pretty okay last night and had a couple of good looks.

His skating isn’t good enough right now for him to become a top offensive weapon. With more explosiveness he has the tools, but his first step is not good and he always seems a little behind the play. He also seems to have some conditioning issues. He’s young and growing into a big body, sure, but last year we blamed it on how much hockey he had played leading up to the season. Now are we going to blame it on how little hockey he’s played leading up to the season?

Again, probably something that can be remedied since he’s so young, but he doesn’t like to use his size or get involved in the physical stuff at this level. He’s gonna have to get dirty to be successful because that’s part of the intrigue of a kid his size. That can be coached to a large extent.

He’s bad off the puck. His metrics always show him as the biggest liability on the team. Another thing that coaching and experience can remedy, but something offense alone won’t make up for. Needs to improve.


I say all of this because, right now, he still has sky high value as a recent #2. He may reach his full potential. I’m not saying he won’t. But even if he does, you don’t win championships by strength of your winger collection. We already have Panarin and Kreider on long deals, Lafreniere will be a stud (it’s evident from day one) and then you have the option to keep a guy like Buch, flip Chytil to wing (where he’d be more successful), Gauthier showed promise last night and Kravstov is coming. Right now, Kakko in a package of some sort can actually land us a long term solution to one of our problem areas, be it LD or C.

If Kakko and Laf both hit their full potential, I’m still not sure we keep both. Panarin makes a ton and we have needs elsewhere in the lineup. It’s a future problem, not a now problem, but eventually we can’t be paying 3 franchise wingers. If Kakko doesn’t reach his potential for some reason and some of the warts I mentioned persist and start to become more widely talked about, his value starts diminishing. We’d also, ideally, like to get competitive while Kreider, Panarin and Zib are still prime aged.

I have no actual problem with Kakko and I’m sure he’ll be fine. But if we can get full value for him, I’d consider moving him regardless of how he’ll pan out. It mitigates the risk of him not reaching 2OA level if things don’t break well for us, but more importantly it deals from a position of strength (which also happens to be the least important position on the roster) to address one of the weaknesses at a much more important position.

I get the first half of what you're saying, and agree with just about all of it. But I will admit that the second half goes down a path that I think we have to be very, very, very careful with.

That approach has burned us, and other organizations way more in the past than the "full value" return does in the rare instances teams arrive at such a conclusion and pull the trigger.

If indeed we take the arguments and concerns about Kakko at face value, then we can safely assume other teams would have similar concerns. As a result, the concept of getting a big return for Kakko is one of the illusions we create to safeguard against the fear of things not working out the way we hoped.

I think we would have substantially more to lose than we'd have to gain with the general approach we're discussing.

 

[molotce]

Just gonna give my 2 cents since the thread is already quite active. No matterwhat its ine game, but the real problem to me is, as said by others, the clear lack of aggression, assertiveness... looked very passive and caught in between plays... thats the bad we all wish he could put behind. People conplaining avout icetime vs hughes... i hate to break it but hughes makes mistakes but shows more, hence more justified icetime (also hischier injured).
now on the otherside we saw kakko really trying to find open spot and constantly be ready for a shot. I like it, big trigger man on the line type of play, but he cant miss all of those opportunities, he’ll have to be opportunist. I would also like to see him play protection down low, which was his best trait sometimes last year.

 

[LokiDog]

I get the first half of what you're saying, but I will admit that the second half goes down a path that I think we have to be very, very, very careful with.

That approach has burned us, and other organizations way more in the past than the "full value" return does in the rare instances teams arrive at such a conclusion and pull the trigger.

If indeed we take the arguments and concerns about Kakko at face value, then we can safely assume other teams would have similar concerns. As a result, the concept of getting a big return for Kakko is one of the illusions we create to safeguard against the fear of things not working out the way we hoped.

I think we would have substantially more to lose than we'd have to gain with the general approach we're discussing.

It’s possible. But, for instance, virtually everyone balks at Kakko for PLD. PLD put up 48 as a 19 year old, 61 as a 20 year old and has a developed, complete game. Led his team in scoring last year (57 pace). He’s only 22. I don’t think the two year age gap is substantial enough to say we’re giving up on potential. PLD would solve so many problems because he can obviously produce (and still has unrealized potential as a 22 year old) despite playing in a low scoring system thus far and is also a very reliable defensive player. If Mika prices himself out or injury concerns lead to us not extending him, PLD would only be 24 and under team control at that time. Moreover, we’re simply a better team with Z, PLD down the middle. Shift Chytil to wing and let him play on Panarin’s line, where Kakko was. He’d be a good fit with size, speed and a willingness to get in the corners. PLD and Panarin have played together.

Obviously that’s just one trade which is unlikely to happen, but the absolute hard line “no way” from most of the fan base seems silly to me. It’s #3OA in 2016 for #2OA in 2019. I’m only using PLD as an example, not hung up on actually trading for him.

 

[Trxjw]

I think part of getting Kakko going is going to be finding the right fit. I don't think that Panarin/Strome/Kakko line works particularly well. It was more effective with Gauthier on the right playing the Fast role of getting to the net and creating space for Strome and Panarin. Kakko might do better with Laf/Chytil or Kreider/Zib. Bigger players who are able to create some space for Kakko when he needs it.

Based on last night's game, Kakko isn't even in the top-10 when it comes to issues with the team. Not worried about him.

 

[Edge]

It’s possible. But, for instance, virtually everyone balks at Kakko for PLD. PLD put up 48 as a 19 year old, 61 as a 20 year old and has a developed, complete game. Led his team in scoring last year (57 pace). He’s only 22. I don’t think the two year age gap is substantial enough to say we’re giving up on potential. PLD would solve so many problems because he can obviously produce (and still has unrealized potential as a 22 year old) despite playing in a low scoring system thus far and is also a very reliable defensive player. If Mika prices himself out or injury concerns lead to us not extending him, PLD would only be 24 and under team control at that time. Moreover, we’re simply a better team with Z, PLD down the middle. Shift Chytil to wing and let him play on Panarin’s line, where Kakko was. He’d be a good fit with size, speed and a willingness to get in the corners. PLD and Panarin have played together.

Obviously that’s just one trade which is unlikely to happen, but the absolute hard line “no way” from most of the fan base seems silly to me. It’s #3OA in 2016 for #2OA in 2019. I’m only using PLD as an example, not hung up on actually trading for him.

I get that, but an element that's kind of lost in that argument is that you're starting PLD's journey at an age where Kakko has played a total of one game. So we're not comparing apples to apples.

We're basing a lot of our opinions of Kakko off an age when Dubois was still playing against kids. That's hard to do.

With PLD there's also the question of contract, beyond talent. And if substitute PLD for another name in the same boat, that's going to be a factor as well that will need to be worked out.

Whether it's PLD, or Eichel, or Monahan, or Lindholm, or someone else, trading Kakko in a package for a center would have a domino effect on this team's budget today and for the next several years. And that difference trickles down to roster moves that impact Zibanejad, and potentially Chytil, and others. So we can't lose sight of that either.

 

[EdJovanovski]

This is it.

I also think some of us are still suffering PTSD over Brendl and Lundmark and have trust issues with first round picks. I'd feel a lot better about Kakko if he showed those glimpses of high end skill more regularly. You saw it in the play-in round in March, even if he wasn't producing. But maybe the consistency will come with time.

March? Lmao the play-in rounds were in AUGUST
This is like the 5th post today referring to the play in rounds being in spring and I thought I was going crazy or something for thinking it was in August

 

[LokiDog]

I get that, but an element that's kind of lost in that argument is that you're starting PLD's journey at an age where Kakko has played a total of one game. So we're not comparing apples to apples.

We're basing a lot of our opinions of Kakko off an age when Dubois was still playing against kids. That's hard to do.

With PLD there's also the question of contract, beyond talent. And if substitute PLD for another name in the same boat, that's going to be a factor as well that will need to be worked out.

Whether it's PLD, or Eichel, or Monahan, or Lindholm, or someone else, trading Kakko in a package for a center would have a domino effect on this team's budget today and for the next several years. And that difference trickles down to roster moves that impact Zibanejad, and potentially Chytil, and others. So we can't lose sight of that either.

I didn’t mean to compare what Kakko has done to what PLD did at those ages, just illustrate that PLD doesn’t seem like someone you should have any concerns about “being worth it” based on what he’s done so far.

Regarding cap, that’s all true, but assuming Strome went with Kakko for cap purposes, the incoming PLD would be less expensive than those two combined are, with the same term remaining for all three. Strome isn’t likely to stick at the end of this contract and Kakko would be due a raise. Dubois would probably be somewhere around, maybe a bit higher than Strome’s current rate plus Kakko’s raise. Yes, I get that it still creates an opening that needs to be filled with another body/contract. Hopefully ELCs like Kravstov and Barron are able to step in by the end of this year.

Mika will get about a 4M raise. It’s unlikely DeAngelo stays beyond this contract. His money would cover that. An ELC like Nils or Schneider replacing.

I get what you’re saying, but the cap is going to be a question no matter what. Fox, Shesterkin, Kakko, Buchnevich, Lindgren, Zib, Laf, Gauthier, Howden, Chytil, Strome, Lemieux, Georgiev, DeAngelo all will have to be re-signed or moved within the next 3 years. Each signing or move will impact things. Swapping Strome’s 4.5M and what to do with him for PLD’s 5M doesn’t skew things so drastically that it should hold us back, IMO. And assuming we get to that point and Mika wants Panarin money, I’d rather have a guy like PLD on the team to insulate against losing Mika. Because if we don’t find our 2C and Mika does price himself out, in two years we’ll have:

Panarin - Chytil - Kakko
Lafreniere - Howden - Kreider

 

[NickyLongLegz]

One game in and people already suggesting trading kakko

 

[LokiDog]

One game in and people already suggesting trading kakko

For me, it’s not based off of this game. I suggested it before the season began. And it isn’t because I don’t think he’ll be good and I want to get him off the team. It’s just because I think that his value right now is still huge and we have other areas that are far more important than wing that really need help, and we also have a lot of good wingers and wing prospects. I could apply the exact same logic behind my openness to trading Kakko to Laf, but if I was going to move one to strengthen the team elsewhere, I think it’s an easy choice.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

I mean, we took 8 penalties. that had a lot to do with it.

Devils took 5...

 

[EdJovanovski]

Devils took 5...

huh?

 

[The Sweetness]

Good lord some of the overreactions here are ridiculous. No preseason games and his first game in ages. Everyone looked horrible and rusty.

I won’t be judging Kakko for 15-20 games or so.

It’ll take a while for everyone to get in shape, shake the rust off, develop chemistry and get used to playing hockey so that we can accurately get a read on his development.