I know he was awful but how bad - can you guys enlighten me?
Was he a Klima-level floater/goal suck as some say?
Or a responsible team player?
Was he a Klima-level floater/goal suck as some say?
Or a responsible team player?
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Fish on The Sand
Untouchable
I do not see how somebody who got 163 assists in a season is a goal-suck. Gretz never had to be strong defensivly because he always had the puck.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
He was so bad defensively that his coaches actually told him not to worry about defense, and just concentrate on scoring a goal now and then. Luckily, the bum was at least adequate offensively.
(Seriously, though, it's hard for anyone to tell how good Gretzky was defensively. He was so dominant on the offense that he actually helped his team the most by concentrating on scoring again and again).
(Seriously, though, it's hard for anyone to tell how good Gretzky was defensively. He was so dominant on the offense that he actually helped his team the most by concentrating on scoring again and again).
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Gretz always drew opposing players to watch him thus taking away from their offense. Kurri was the defensive forward on that line and was one of the best in the league.
The Muffin Stud
Registered User
A quote from Don Cherry's Rock'em Sock'em 5 (1993) after showing an own goal go off Getz's stick:
"99 says 'that's the last time I'm back checkin'.'"
"99 says 'that's the last time I'm back checkin'.'"
Fish on The Sand
Untouchable
I'm sure they looked cool waving their arms and legs in the air as the puck blew past them.
I watched a huge amount of Gretzkys play with the Oil and as mentioned, Jurri was the defencively responsible one on the line. That said, many times i seen Gretz come back and lift a players stick, strip him of the puck and start back up ice. He was no way as bad as people seen to make him out to be. His job was offence but he didnt always just sit at center waiting for the break out. When he did it was when he knew that Coffey was going to be sending him the breakout pass. Interestingly Kurri was good enough to be considered for the Selke but the writers thought he scored to much to be a "real" defencive forward. What a joke. Gretz was no Bob Gainey but he wasnt meant to be, the 200+ points help offset his perceived total lack of defence.
VIDAKER
Registered User
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
- May 10, 2006
- 13,303
- 4,675
No, you don't know, becuase that's an incorrect statement. Just because Gretzky wasn't a physical player, many people make him out to be Pavel Bure, which is not the case at all. Defensively, Gretzky and Kurri were exceptional penalty killers. So much so that other teams had to be careful on the powerplay because even a man down they were an offensive threat.
He was actually quite good defensively. He worked his butt off to help his team win and that included being defensive when necessary.
He was always on the Oilers #1 PK unit for a reason.
He was always on the Oilers #1 PK unit for a reason.
It does look much cooler when you have a wall of equipment and don't even have to move to make saves.
Who was the brilliant man that made the NHL so much better by expanding the goalie equipment?
Dark Shadows
Registered User
That doesn't say much. So was Paul Coffey. When they were on the PK, their jobs were to try to score shorthanded goals more than anything. In their defense, that is what was expected of them lol.
Ironically, we are having an "Even strength goals against" thread right now.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=476980
Tells a lot about Gretzky and Coffey, Kurri and Messier.
That question truly makes me feel old! And it assumes right from the start that he was a poor defensive player - which is so un-true as to be laughable. Klima! Ha! Klima was tossed off that team because he wasn't the "right stuff." If you ever get a chance to see the documentary "The boys on the Bus" (1987) you will see a side of Wayne Gretzky that is often unknown to the casual (or I'm assuming younger) fan that never saw him play. Gretzky was team captain of arguably the best team in a generation. If you will indulge an old timer ...
Gretzky was often maligned as a poor defensive player early in his career. Imo, partly out of spite - because he was ridiculously great - no hyperbole here. (And, there are and have been many "great players" since and loads of hype around them, but Gretzky was great like "The Beetles are the best band in the world" great - in short total hysteria) and partly because he was radically changing the way the game was understood and played. Cherry hated him as I recall, because "he wore a visor!" Uhhh, I like Don and all, but even Don recognized later that he was waaaay off base early on. Don has a hardon for Bobby Orr and that's likely where his bias comes from.
As to Gretzky's defense specifically:
They said he couldn't skate very well, until he would catch fast players such as Steve Bozek, Steve Tambellini or Theoren Fleury back-checking on a break away. Some said he "wasn't good at face-offs" and then he dominated Doug Gilmore, Joe Neiuwendyke and Bryan Trottier in respective playoff series. (for those that are younger, those were the best of the 80's and early 90's)
Gretzky's amazing anticipation and knowledge of the game meant that he ALWAYS (seemed) to KNOW where the puck was going. He anticipated better than any player since. His defense often looked more like a football defensive back waiting on an errant throw. He would pounce on a poor pass, force a mistake because he played so well positionally, was such as threat to score and often recovered loose pucks with no one else around.
Because he was on the ice for 20 - 25 mins a game in offensive or even strength situations, he rarely took shifts killing penalties, unless the oilers were taking a ton and he needed minutes to keep loose. Then he proved to be equally good (a super star) at PK with his short handed play. I remember one season he and Kurri played the forward positions on the pk and were leathal with SH goals (I had to look it up - '83 he had 12 SH goals, '84 he had 11!) Kurri had similar numbers.
One "classic" Gretzky defensive tactic was this: when an opposing team (such as Terry Crisp's Calgary Flames) put a "shadowing player" on Gretzky (it had to be a smart player with great agility and wheels) Gretzky would merely skate over beside another Calgary player and take two players out of the action. You would see Gretzky and his shadow, shadowing another valuable Calgary forward in a little useless knot on the ice. It was frustrating as hell for the other coach, the other players and it frequently left his line mates often with a man advantage.
Sure he wasn't a banger, but he was defensively excellent on the boards (like the Sedins are now) but even better because he was just that much better a player. He used superior body position, a lightning quick stick, and a shifty first move to seperate the puck from the offensive player, and himself from the pack. He rarely got touched, and if a forechecker pursued too hard or over-committed, his ridiculously good vision on ice and passing skills sprung an open player for a scoring opportunity. Fore checkers soon covered the guys he might pass to and tried a kind of zone D on the Oilers.
He was frequently vilified for being a "seagull" but imo he just had waaaay better anticipation of the play, and was already turning up ice AND available for the break-away pass. Playing up-ice meant that a player on the opposing team had to cover him and frequently it pulled a defenseman AND a forward out of the offensive zone. Imagine playing 3 on 4 offensive most of a game - not particularly effective as it turns out.
I remember guys screaming at the tv set yelling, "why doesn't someone hit him" and claims that "there's a league-wide conspriracy not to hit Gretzky." etc. None of it was true, he was JUST THAT GOOD. You couldn't get a piece of him. You couldn't tie him up, knock him down (legally), or stop him. He played double shifts tirelessly and was on ice 25 mins. a game in all circumstances.
It is easy now as time passes to forget and discount his abilities. The guy we saw and remember now from the St Louis and New York days is a shadow of the player Gary Suter jammed into the boards. Sure he was playing against Andy Schliebner (look him up) in those days, but he was UB-BUH-LIEVABLE in all facets of the game.
I only regret, that as a long-suffering Canucks fan, I spent so much time hating his guts in the early days I never fully appreciated how truly great a player he was.
finn
Gretzky was often maligned as a poor defensive player early in his career. Imo, partly out of spite - because he was ridiculously great - no hyperbole here. (And, there are and have been many "great players" since and loads of hype around them, but Gretzky was great like "The Beetles are the best band in the world" great - in short total hysteria) and partly because he was radically changing the way the game was understood and played. Cherry hated him as I recall, because "he wore a visor!" Uhhh, I like Don and all, but even Don recognized later that he was waaaay off base early on. Don has a hardon for Bobby Orr and that's likely where his bias comes from.
As to Gretzky's defense specifically:
They said he couldn't skate very well, until he would catch fast players such as Steve Bozek, Steve Tambellini or Theoren Fleury back-checking on a break away. Some said he "wasn't good at face-offs" and then he dominated Doug Gilmore, Joe Neiuwendyke and Bryan Trottier in respective playoff series. (for those that are younger, those were the best of the 80's and early 90's)
Gretzky's amazing anticipation and knowledge of the game meant that he ALWAYS (seemed) to KNOW where the puck was going. He anticipated better than any player since. His defense often looked more like a football defensive back waiting on an errant throw. He would pounce on a poor pass, force a mistake because he played so well positionally, was such as threat to score and often recovered loose pucks with no one else around.
Because he was on the ice for 20 - 25 mins a game in offensive or even strength situations, he rarely took shifts killing penalties, unless the oilers were taking a ton and he needed minutes to keep loose. Then he proved to be equally good (a super star) at PK with his short handed play. I remember one season he and Kurri played the forward positions on the pk and were leathal with SH goals (I had to look it up - '83 he had 12 SH goals, '84 he had 11!) Kurri had similar numbers.
One "classic" Gretzky defensive tactic was this: when an opposing team (such as Terry Crisp's Calgary Flames) put a "shadowing player" on Gretzky (it had to be a smart player with great agility and wheels) Gretzky would merely skate over beside another Calgary player and take two players out of the action. You would see Gretzky and his shadow, shadowing another valuable Calgary forward in a little useless knot on the ice. It was frustrating as hell for the other coach, the other players and it frequently left his line mates often with a man advantage.
Sure he wasn't a banger, but he was defensively excellent on the boards (like the Sedins are now) but even better because he was just that much better a player. He used superior body position, a lightning quick stick, and a shifty first move to seperate the puck from the offensive player, and himself from the pack. He rarely got touched, and if a forechecker pursued too hard or over-committed, his ridiculously good vision on ice and passing skills sprung an open player for a scoring opportunity. Fore checkers soon covered the guys he might pass to and tried a kind of zone D on the Oilers.
He was frequently vilified for being a "seagull" but imo he just had waaaay better anticipation of the play, and was already turning up ice AND available for the break-away pass. Playing up-ice meant that a player on the opposing team had to cover him and frequently it pulled a defenseman AND a forward out of the offensive zone. Imagine playing 3 on 4 offensive most of a game - not particularly effective as it turns out.
I remember guys screaming at the tv set yelling, "why doesn't someone hit him" and claims that "there's a league-wide conspriracy not to hit Gretzky." etc. None of it was true, he was JUST THAT GOOD. You couldn't get a piece of him. You couldn't tie him up, knock him down (legally), or stop him. He played double shifts tirelessly and was on ice 25 mins. a game in all circumstances.
It is easy now as time passes to forget and discount his abilities. The guy we saw and remember now from the St Louis and New York days is a shadow of the player Gary Suter jammed into the boards. Sure he was playing against Andy Schliebner (look him up) in those days, but he was UB-BUH-LIEVABLE in all facets of the game.
I only regret, that as a long-suffering Canucks fan, I spent so much time hating his guts in the early days I never fully appreciated how truly great a player he was.
finn
One "classic" Gretzky defensive tactic was this: when an opposing team (such as Terry Crisp's Calgary Flames) put a "shadowing player" on Gretzky (it had to be a smart player with great agility and wheels) Gretzky would merely skate over beside another Calgary player and take two players out of the action. You would see Gretzky and his shadow, shadowing another valuable Calgary forward in a little useless knot on the ice. It was frustrating as hell for the other coach, the other players and it frequently left his line mates often with a man advantage.
This tactic has been credited to Bob Johnson,late Penguins coach.
This tactic has been credited to Bob Johnson,late Penguins coach.
Trottier
Very Random
Gretzky and Lemieux so transcended the game of hockey as it is known and played by mere mortals that the concept of defense is essentially moot when discussing them. For they dominated the ice, the attention, at least, of all skaters every single shift.
Chili
Registered User
- Jun 10, 2004
- 8,463
- 5,222
In all honesty, I can't remember 99 throwing a body check. He was not a great player without the puck. I was watching a series of clips of him in the 1987 Canada Cup and his main tactic was the slash. He'd be called for more penalties for that tactic now. He could shadow guys though when he needed to because of his speed and great anticipation/hockey sense.
Though, if your best defence is a great offense then he was a great defensive player. Pretty hard for the other team to score when your team has the puck. (just like the Giants keeping the ball away from the Patriots).
Though, if your best defence is a great offense then he was a great defensive player. Pretty hard for the other team to score when your team has the puck. (just like the Giants keeping the ball away from the Patriots).
Weztex
Registered User
- Feb 6, 2006
- 3,114
- 3,906
Weird. Gretzky was precisely the most dangerous player I've ever seen without the puck.
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