Player Discussion Joonas Korpisalo

[mjhfb]

The 2011 team was better at every position, yes. Wouldn’t it make more sense to compare this team to last year’s team?

Debrusk ----> Lindholm
Forbort -----> Zadorov
Heinen ----> Johnson
Ullmark ----> Korposalo
Maroon ----> Kastelic
Shattenkirk ----> Lohrei

 

[LSCII]

The 2011 team was better at every position, yes. Wouldn’t it make more sense to compare this team to last year’s team?

Because that was a cup caliber team. This is not. And it's very obvious the difference. That's what I'm trying to say here. This team does not have it. They're lacking the requisite scoring. And no overachievement by some 4th line stiff that's elevated will fix it. You can't get anywhere with a one line team, let alone a one player scoring team. To win and actually compete for a cup, you need multiple players all producing because secondary scoring is the key to winning a cup.

This roster doesn't even have primary scoring.

 

[BruinDust]

I don’t think Swayman is the only reason this season has been such a drop off from last season, but on paper the biggest change from last season to this season is getting rid of Ullmark and making Swayman the starter on pace to play 15+ more games then he’s ever played in his career. Lindholm hasn’t been great but is that the reason their defense and GAA sucks? Probably not.

Is there a way to compare high danger opportunities against over an entire season?

The change in the system in the early going was the biggest change IMO. Swayman starting more games shouldn't have a great impact in the earlier parts of the season, it would be later as the number of games start to pile up where the impact would be greatest.

I'd also factor in the inconsistency up the middle in terms of both performance and personnel. They've used about 10 different players at center. Even this past week or so they swapped Coyle to the wing and Kastelic into the middle, Beecher to the wing, McLaughlin in the middle vs. Winnipeg. Then last night they insert Johnson on the 3rd and put Coyle back playing center. They don't give the D-men any chance to settle in and get familiar with who their centers are. And the centers as a group haven't held their weight defensively either.

I'm not familiar with any way to generate shot charts unfortunately.

 

[PB37]

Your ignoring how goalies are at a much bigger disadvantage now with the capability of shooters in today's game. What are they supposed to do to adapt? Pucks are coming off sticks at a much more consistent rate, with more accuracy, and the releases are near impossible at times for the goalies to read, especially for elite shooters. The stick technology today is nuts. Far beyond what it was even 10 years ago, let alone 15. We have a generation of players now who have grown up using longer sticks with lower flexes and know how to get the most out of these weapons.

I don't buy this as an excuse for why Swayman has been horrible. He's been school boyed on a lot of bad angle, stoppable shots all year. All of the goalies in the league are facing all of the same shooters from the same teams. Jusse Saros and Connor Hellebuyck, two elite goalies who should be Swayman's peers in terms of ability, have faced the highest amount of high danger shots in the league and neither of them have a SP under .900 like Swayman does ( .885 ). f***ing nobodies like Sam Montembeault and Kevin Lankinen have faced more high danger shots than Swayman and somehow both are keeping their SP over .900. In Montembeault's and Saros' case, they're both playing behind defenses that have not been good this year like Boston's.

Swayman has just not been good this year by any stretch and to place blame on the defense or calling it a shooter's league now with everybody waving magical jedi hockey sticks is just deflecting the blame off Swayman. He got full of himself, missed camp, is not prepared, and doesn't have the same focus or bulldog mentality to clamp down.

 

[BruinDust]

Because that was a cup caliber team. This is not. And it's very obvious the difference. That's what I'm trying to say here. This team does not have it. They're lacking the requisite scoring. And no overachievement by some 4th line stiff that's elevated will fix it. You can't get anywhere with a one line team, let alone a one player scoring team. To win and actually compete for a cup, you need multiple players all producing because secondary scoring is the key to winning a cup.

This roster doesn't even have primary scoring.

People forget that 2011 team was 5th in goals scored. Their PP was middle-of-the-pack but a far cry from dead last. You had 4 lines that could produce offense.

 

[LSCII]

People forget that 2011 team was 5th in goals scored. Their PP was middle-of-the-pack but a far cry from dead last. You had 4 lines that could produce offense.

Exactly. They had primary scoring and secondary scoring and they didn’t rely on the pp to score. They scored 5 on 5 goals.

 

[PB37]

You know who currently has the highest save percentage in the league vs high danger shots?

Joonas Korpisalo.

 

[BruinDust]

I don't buy this as an excuse for why Swayman has been horrible. He's been school boyed on a lot of bad angle, stoppable shots all year. All of the goalies in the league are facing all of the same shooters from the same teams.

But they are not. No two goalies have faced the same shooters and same schedule up to this point or even close.

Most of Swayman's bad numbers are from the games against Florida/Dallas(twice)/Carolina/Winnipeg/Columbus. Games where the Bruins team defense got picked apart by strong offensive clubs. The Carolina game where he got pulled might of been the worst defensive game the Bruins have played in a decade. There is a direct correlation there.

Goals-per-game rank:

Carolina - 3rd
Winnipeg - 4th
Florida - 5th
Columbus - 8th
Dallas - 10th

 

[BruinDust]

Exactly. They had primary scoring and secondary scoring and they didn’t rely on the pp to score. They scored 5 on 5 goals.

That 2011 team was a beast at even strength. While their GAA was 2nd overall, their PK was middle-of the pack. Their 5 on 5 play was their bread and butter.

 

[Mainehockey33]

But they are not. No two goalies have faced the same shooters and same schedule up to this point or even close.

Most of Swayman's bad numbers are from the games against Florida/Dallas(twice)/Carolina/Winnipeg/Columbus. Games where the Bruins team defense got picked apart by strong offensive clubs. The Carolina game where he got pulled might of been the worst defensive game the Bruins have played in a decade. There is a direct correlation there.

Goals-per-game rank:

Carolina - 3rd
Winnipeg - 4th
Florida - 5th
Columbus - 8th
Dallas - 10th

Right, Hellebuyck has it easier because he can’t play against the team he’s on.

You know who currently has the highest save percentage in the league vs high danger shots?

Joonas Korpisalo.

Wow, how is he making those saves with such a putrid roster?

 

[BruinDust]

You know who currently has the highest save percentage in the league vs high danger shots?

Joonas Korpisalo.

That doesn't mean he's facing a lot of high danger shots. The games he's played against weak offensive teams (which are most of his games) the Bruins have contained those teams for the most part. He's made some big saves when needed, I won't deny him that.

Right, Hellebuyck has it easier because he can’t play against the team he’s on.


Wow, how is he making those saves with such a putrid roster?

What sort of weak argument is that?

How? He's not facing all that many high danger chances. He should get credit for making some big saves when asked but the sample size is awfully small.

 

[Mainehockey33]

That doesn't mean he's facing a lot of high danger shots. The games he's played against weak offensive teams (which are most of his games) the Bruins have contained those teams for the most part. He's made some big saves when needed, I won't deny him that.



What sort of weak argument is that?

How? He's not facing all that many high danger chances. He should get credit for making some big saves when asked but the sample size is awfully small.

Seems like the argument you were making?

How does Korpisalo have better numbers than Swayman when he faces the most high danger scoring chances in the league?

 

[BruinDust]

Seems like the argument you were making?

How does Korpisalo have better numbers than Swayman when he faces the most high danger scoring chances in the league?

Where did PB37 say that? He said Korpisalo has the highest SP against high danger chances, not that he's faced the most high danger chances.

And no, that wasn't the argument I was making. No two goalies have faced the same opposition or close to it at this point in the season. Not Swayman, not Hellebuyck. I outline a direct correlation between the games where Swayman got lit up and where those teams rank offensively. Somewhere earlier in this thread I did the same thing with Korpisalo but the opposite in a sense that his games where he kept the goals down were against many of the weaker offensive clubs and was labelled a Korpisalo hater even though I like him and felt he was a solid add this past summer. I wasn't one of those betting on Bussi in the pre-season and praying Joonas ended up in Providence like many here did.

 

[PB37]

But they are not. No two goalies have faced the same shooters and same schedule up to this point or even close.

Most of Swayman's bad numbers are from the games against Florida/Dallas(twice)/Carolina/Winnipeg/Columbus. Games where the Bruins team defense got picked apart by strong offensive clubs. The Carolina game where he got pulled might of been the worst defensive game the Bruins have played in a decade. There is a direct correlation there.

Goals-per-game rank:

Carolina - 3rd
Winnipeg - 4th
Florida - 5th
Columbus - 8th
Dallas - 10th

Hellebuyck

Tampa ( 2nd )
Florida twice ( 5th )
Vegas ( 6th )
Columbus ( 8th )
Dallas twice ( 10 )

Saros

Washington ( 1st )
Tampa twice ( 2nd )
Winnipeg ( 4th )
Jersey ( 7th )

Montembeault

Washington ( 1st )
Vegas ( 6th )
Jersey ( 7th )
Columbus ( 8th )

 

[LSCII]

That doesn't mean he's facing a lot of high danger shots. The games he's played against weak offensive teams (which are most of his games) the Bruins have contained those teams for the most part. He's made some big saves when needed, I won't deny him that.



What sort of weak argument is that?

How? He's not facing all that many high danger chances. He should get credit for making some big saves when asked but the sample size is awfully small.

Doesn't matter what reality is. There's a percentage of people that are now anti Sway because he treated his negotiations like a business. So anything Korpi does is amplified as a huge positive, even mundane shit, Weird but true

 

[BruinDust]

Hellebuyck

Tampa ( 2nd )
Florida twice ( 5th )
Vegas ( 6th )
Columbus ( 8th )
Dallas twice ( 10 )

Saros

Washington ( 1st )
Tampa twice ( 2nd )
Winnipeg ( 4th )
Jersey ( 7th )

Montembeault

Washington ( 1st )
Vegas ( 6th )
Jersey ( 7th )
Columbus ( 8th )

Did you watch any of those games to know how good or bad the teams played in front of them defensively? That's the point here. When the Bruins played those strong offensive teams, they got exposed defensively. I can't speak to any of those games because I never watched any of them and you likely didn't either.

It's like your trying to say that overall team defensive structure and being able to stop teams from getting high quality chances doesn't matter, it's all on the goalie.

 

[BruinDust]

Doesn't matter what reality is. There's a percentage of people that are now anti Sway because he treated his negotiations like a business. So anything Korpi does is amplified as a huge positive, even mundane shit, Weird but true

100%. Couldn't of said it better.

 

[Mainehockey33]

Did you watch any of those games to know how good or bad the teams played in front of them defensively? That's the point here. When the Bruins played those strong offensive teams, they got exposed defensively. I can't speak to any of those games because I never watched any of them and you likely didn't either.

It's like your trying to say that overall team defensive structure and being able to stop teams from getting high quality chances doesn't matter, it's all on the goalie.

If you didn’t watch them either then why are you using them to support your argument?

Doesn't matter what reality is. There's a percentage of people that are now anti Sway because he treated his negotiations like a business. So anything Korpi does is amplified as a huge positive, even mundane shit, Weird but true

No one would have a bigger field day than you if Krejci put up 30 points after signing for $7M. Like you said, there’s no excuses when you’re paid to produce, or in this case stop pucks.

 

[BruinDust]

If you didn’t watch them either then why are you using them to support your argument?

I'm not. I didn't list any of them. That wasn't my list.

All I know is I watched the games where Swayman got lit up (except Florida) and they hung him out to dry defensively in every single one of them. That's where most of his bad numbers are coming from. It's a miracle really he has 9 wins so far considering he's behind the NHL's worst offensive team.

And that should be what were most worried about. As much as the Bruins still need improvement defensively, especially against stronger clubs, the lack of offense is by far the most glaring problem on this team this season. When your flirting with offensive numbers the past two months comparable to some of the worst offensive teams in the past quarter century, like 1st year expansion Minnesota and Atlanta teams, there are far bigger fish to fry than the Swayman fillet your cooking.

 

[duffy]

Right, Hellebuyck has it easier because he can’t play against the team he’s on.


Wow, how is he making those saves with such a putrid roster?

The putrid roster is the reason he has to make so many insane saves! When your D is setting up the opposition for 10;bell chances it's a problem. Between Carlo and Chuckie, probably 50% of our goals against have their finger prints on them. Last night's 2 goal was a unearned perfect pass from Chuckie to a Cracken shooter!

 

[PB37]

Did you watch any of those games to know how good or bad the teams played in front of them defensively? That's the point here. When the Bruins played those strong offensive teams, they got exposed defensively. I can't speak to any of those games because I never watched any of them and you likely didn't either.

It's like your trying to say that overall team defensive structure and being able to stop teams from getting high quality chances doesn't matter, it's all on the goalie.

I have not. But with the numbers being what they are, safe to say, there are goaltenders both elite and not elite holding the line and doing their job against the increased offense in the league while Swayman has dropped the ball so far. Now, we can point to a myriad of reasons as to why that is but the bottom line is Swayman has not done his part. He gets paid top tier goaltender money to stop the puck vs elite shooters and vs the better teams, not just the bad shooters and the poor teams. He wanted to be The Guy and get paid like one but so far, he has struggled. The team needs to play better in front of him, that is without a doubt true. The team also can't score, which has compounded the issue of the lack of layers and coverage in their own zone. But if Swayman needs all of these things to be going right to look elite in net, then the Bruins signed fools gold. I don't believe that, I think Swayman has the capability to lift a team up, but I feel like all these excuses you're making for him puts that sentiment on the table.

 

[BruinDust]

I have not. But with the numbers being what they are, safe to say, there are goaltenders both elite and not elite holding the line and doing their job against the increased offense in the league while Swayman has dropped the ball so far. Now, we can point to a myriad of reasons as to why that is but the bottom line is Swayman has not done his part. He gets paid top tier goaltender money to stop the puck vs elite goalies and vs the better teams, not just the bad shooters and the poor teams. He wanted to be The Guy and get paid like one but so far, he has struggled. The team needs to play better in front of him, that is without a doubt true. The team also can't score, which has compounded the issue of the lack of layers and coverage in their own zone. But if Swayman needs all of these things to be going right to look elite in net, then the Bruins signed fools gold. I don't believe that, I think Swayman has the capability to lift a team up, but I feel like all these excuses you're making for him puts that sentiment on the table.

Has he though? I'm not saying he's been great. I'm not saying he's played up to the value of that contract. He's won most of the games vs. offenses that you would expect him to and the Bruins to be able to handle defensively. The games he's lost against lower offensive teams was because the Bruins couldn't score. Losses to Vancouver, Pittsburgh, the Ottawa game where they didn't get a shot on net for almost the entire 2nd half.

Lets look at 12 Swayman's losses. On one side you have the losses where Boston gets manhandled (Florida, Dallas twice, Carolina, Winnipeg and Columbus).

On the other side, he lost 2-1 in OT to Utah, allowed 3 goals in the two games where the Bruins scored zero in losses to Nashville and Toronto. Keep in mind this is a league with teams flirting with 4 goals scored on average per game.

A 3-2 OT loss to Ottawa in a game where the Bruins could even get a shot on net for the final 25 minutes. Allowed 1 in another Bruin goose-egg loss to Vancouver, and a 2-1 loss to Pittsburgh. Give him back 3 of those closee games as wins and now he's 12-8 which isn't great but isn't terrible, especially considering he's on a team that has already fired it's coach and has an historically bad offense.

At the end of the day, those 5-6 games vs. strong offensive teams is still a small sample size. It's like people assuming because of those games that this contract will be a mistake moving forward, as if somehow they predict this is how he will play for the next 8 seasons from age 25 onward. I'd might be concerned if this was some 32 or 33 year old goalie who maybe his best days are behind him, but that's not the case here.

You call it excuses, all I've done here with Swayman (and Korpisalo) is put some context to the numbers. I like both guys and am confident in both moving forward. They aren't the issue.

But I also think fans need to change their expectations a bit when it comes to goalies in today's NHL. We aren't even halfway through this year and look at some of the offensive performances we've seen. Rantanen posted a 5 points night a few games ago. Kucherov posted 6 last night. We saw a team score 6 goals in the 3rd period last night, that same team that scored 6 gave up 6 in the first period about a month ago. Just last night Pitt scored 9, TB scored 8, Edmonton scored 7. Washington lead the league in goals and have posted 5 or more 12 times already in 28 games. Tampa have score at least 8 goals in FOUR games thus far. The past several seasons the game has gotten more and more offensively inclined, I don't even think that is debatable. We don't see it as much watching the Bruins here because the fact is Boston management have not embraced this evolution.

 

[NDiesel]

Its easy and lazy to complain about the goalies instead of articulating the constant breakdowns on the defensive end. Like I've said many times in this and the Sway thread, it doesn't matter who they put in net, this roster is deeply flawed and prevents them from being a viable contender.

Both Swayman not being nearly good enough this year and the defense having breakdowns too often can be true.

I'm being very critical of Sway so far this year but that's only because 1) Hes a top 5 paid goalie and 2) I know he is much better than what he has showed so far.

 

[NDiesel]

Your ignoring how goalies are at a much bigger disadvantage now with the capability of shooters in today's game. What are they supposed to do to adapt? Pucks are coming off sticks at a much more consistent rate, with more accuracy, and the releases are near impossible at times for the goalies to read, especially for elite shooters. The stick technology today is nuts. Far beyond what it was even 10 years ago, let alone 15. We have a generation of players now who have grown up using longer sticks with lower flexes and know how to get the most out of these weapons.

You keep saying this and I still don't get it, because it doesn't really answer why Swayman is so much worse than any other starter right now when they all face the same apparent disadvantages.

It's an excuse for his play IMO, I watch plenty of goalies this year beat shooters one on one with more consistency than Sway this year.

 

[RoccoF14]

Goalies are only as good as the team in front of them. That's why you don't pay them $8+mil in the first place.

They can't make a bad team good, but they CAN make a good team bad.