John Tavares Discussion

[Brobust]

You still seem to be trying to justify that signing.

I'm not saying he's not a good player, or not worth $11M, just not to us. If you have three new cars but your fridge and stove are dying, you don't blow your budget on another new car, no matter how pretty.

I think the Leafs are already regretting it, and even just based on this thread, a lot of fans are too.

If you believe that his signing drove up the price for Matthews, Marner, and Nylander, then maybe the front office should have known that, and not signed him. If you believe that his signing didn't, then maybe the front office should have known what those three were going to cost, and not signed him. Either way, that shiny new toy (actually a kinda dull older toy) wasn't what we really needed, and couldn't afford.

The leafs signed John Tavares and then remade the defence to be above league average and they also had one of the leagues best defensive 3rd lines this past season, and that's with Justin Holl and Jake Muzzin struggling/dealing with injury and illness this past season. So how actually does your analogy fit?

They bought the Ferrari and then remodelled the entire house. And let's be clear, there's enough of a track record now to safely assume that they'll come back as good or even better next season. After all, they got 115 points with bottom 5 goaltending this past season.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Lets look at the UFA signings for defenseman over the 2018 and 2019 UFA signing period. It's ugly, Tavares was hands down the better value contract.

2018 Top Defenseman signings

John Carlson (who initially I wanted the leafs to target) [WSH 8y -$64 million] - not a bad deal but he wanted to stay in Washington

Mike Green [DET - 2 y, $10.75 million] - not sure if he even played that second year of his contract

Calvin De Haan [CAR - 4y 18.2 million] - Carolina ended up trading him

John Moore - [BOS - 5y 13.75 million] - was on waivers and in the minors at various points

Ian Cole - [COL - 3y $12.75 million] - alright defenseman but still rather have Tavares

Jack Johnson - [PIT - 5y $16.25 million] - yikes

2018 Forward signings
Not even going to list them, they are horrendous. Outside of Perron there isn't a forward I would have touched. Tavares was by far the best UFA available in this class.

2019 Signings:
Again not much out there that would have altered our franchise or would have been a better decision that Tavares. Panarin was going to NY, doubt Duchene was signing here.

I can see some peoples point about not signing Tavares, but I think they are being naive. When a top UFA comes calling, GM's are not saying no to that. Especially when there was more than likely pressure by ownership to make the signing happen after missing the mark on Stamkos the year before.

Just because there were other possibly worse deals doesn't justify this one. Except for Carlson, none of the deals were even for $20M, let alone anywhere close to Tavares' $77M.

 

[Trapper]

And what if he had scored 7 goals?

Then you move him like Nick Ritchie.
Leaf fans are scared to death of what could happen but seem to be ok with what does happen.
Again and again.
If it’s not the core, make 100 trades. Eventually, if you still can’t move forward by rearranging the deck chairs you have to start looking higher up the line for change.
The Rangers moved JT Miller and Ryan McD.
Hey guess where McD is now? Do the Rangers care?

 

[ULF_55]

Throw out cap consideration and just construct the best lines.

If that means one of the double digit$ is on the third line go for it.

Tavares has done well with lessor players in the past.

Ego shouldn't be a concern.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The leafs signed John Tavares and then remade the defence to be above league average and they also had one of the leagues best defensive 3rd lines this past season, and that's with Justin Holl and Jake Muzzin struggling/dealing with injury and illness this past season. So how actually does your analogy fit?

They bought the Ferrari and then remodelled the entire house. And let's be clear, there's enough of a track record now to safely assume that they'll come back as good or even better next season. After all, they got 115 points with bottom 5 goaltending this past season.

"Bottom 5 goaltending". Wonder if we might have been able to improve our goaltending with an extra $11M?

Yes, the regular season was great, and I was actually pretty happy with our playoffs too, but depth and goaltending are more critical in the playoffs, and those are what were our downfall.

 

[ITM]

Food for thought.

John Tavares scored 27 goals last year and that cost the Leafs $11 mil cap hit.

Meanwhile the player the Leafs acquired prior to expansion, and lost to Seattle Jared McCann also scored 27 goals last year and did it for a mere $2.94 mil,

Had the Leafs kept McCann and played him in Hyman's old spot, alongside Matthews and Marner he likely would have scored 27 goals for the Leafs.

McCann @ 27 goals + $8 mil extra cap space = Tavares @ 27 goals for $11 mil.

This is why other teams don't run around handing out $11 mil contracts. unless you're a 60 goal scorer and Rocket winner and Hart finalist able to validate the contract and prove you are a top 5 player in the league..

You mean like...Spam?

Your conclusion is based on a premise lending integrity to time travel.

It was a peculiar move to let McCann go, I agree. And I certainly wasn't one of the members here clamoring for Tavares. Excited when he arrived and by his first season, and didn't see the error in a pre-pandemic world to do what the club did from a depth move.

Paraphrasing Cherry, however, I didn't think the move was necessarily a smart one given Matthews obvious ascension and likely place in the room.

The (possible) jump the shark moment was our trio using Tavares as contract leverage and our GM (again, in a pre-pandemic world) giving in, perhaps to his sense of the club's proximity to success as anything.

But teams don't catch themselves second-guessing decisions on premium players offset by lower-tier players possible potential as an organizational building model:

In the summer of 2018, Tavares came off of an 84 point campaign. That same summer, McCann was recuperating after blasting 28 points for Florida. itchy trigger finger by Dubas in light of what McCann was likely going to become? Well, 2019 brought a combined 31 points split between Florida and Pittsburgh.

So 2018 Tavares has absolutely nothing to do with 2022 McCann. And the consideration has absolutely nothing to do with signing outlier pieces at the rare time they're available.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I'd have preferred that team but I can't lie that I wasn't excited when Tavares signed here.

I was excited too until I started watching some of his past games during that summer and never noticing him. I did notice he had the worst speed of any "super star" player though. I wondered how this guy could be considered so good when he chugs around the ice like a snail. That was when the worry set in.

 

[Brobust]

"Bottom 5 goaltending". Wonder if we might have been able to improve our goaltending with an extra $11M?

Yes, the regular season was great, and I was actually pretty happy with our playoffs too, but depth and goaltending are more critical in the playoffs, and those are what were our downfall.

You do remember they spent $3.8M on a goalie? It just happened to be a bad signing.

I don't think depth or goaltending were an issue. It is a mental issue. Which is maybe more serious and harder to solve. But that's got nothing to do with the salary cap.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

All these rumours and story’s about all the teams that were going to pay Tavares these crazy numbers are meaningless. Unless one of the parties comes out and confirms it it’s just here say.
That aside just because someone else is willing to make a mistake we shouldn’t be.
plain and simple the only reason Tavares is here is because Dubas wanted to make a big splash to his new club

I think all of the rumors of him being offered $13M are bunk because I read an Athletic article that said JT specifically told teams he did not want $$ to be involved in his decision. He was going to choose a team based on other factors. The day he confirmed he was signing with Toronto they decided to settle on a contract. Dubas offered 10M and JT said it was too low...then he offered 11M and away we went. So all of these stories on us having to outcompete SJ are probably just MLSE propaganda to make themselves look better. "We signed him for 11M when others offered 13M...how great is our organization?" type stuff.

 

[Brobust]

I think all of the rumors of him being offered $13M are bunk because I read an Athletic article that said JT specifically told teams he did not want $$ to be involved in his decision. He was going to choose a team based on other factors. The day he confirmed he was signing with Toronto they decided to settle on a contract. Dubas offered 10M and JT said it was too low...then he offered 11M and away we went. So all of these stories on us having to outcompete SJ are probably just MLSE propaganda to make themselves look better. "We signed him for 11M when others offered 13M...how great is our organization?" type stuff.

Dismiss the things that hurt your argument as bunk. Accept the things that help as fact.

 

[francis246]

I think all of the rumors of him being offered $13M are bunk because I read an Athletic article that said JT specifically told teams he did not want $$ to be involved in his decision. He was going to choose a team based on other factors. The day he confirmed he was signing with Toronto they decided to settle on a contract. Dubas offered 10M and JT said it was too low...then he offered 11M and away we went. So all of these stories on us having to outcompete SJ are probably just MLSE propaganda to make themselves look better. "We signed him for 11M when others offered 13M...how great is our organization?" type stuff.

that would actually make it more true. Listen JT knew where he was going, it was Toronto. The only way for teams to convince him to not go home would be to offer him deals that would be hard to say no to. In order to at least entice him to come there.

 

[AuraSphere]

San Jose reportedly offered him 14M - lets not forget that the $11M was actually considered a discount at the time

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

that would actually make it more true. Listen JT knew where he was going, it was Toronto. The only way for teams to convince him to not go home would be to offer him deals that would be hard to say no to. In order to at least entice him to come there.

Possibly...but this would have been after he decided to come here...did they think he was going to change his mind after publicly putting out the Pyjama Tweet? It could be other teams trying to look like they tried for their fanbases...or it could be BS from MLSE. I guess everyone has their opinion. I tend to think it was MLSE trying to make 11m seem like a steal.

 

[Racer88]

Where did I say we should have? I said Mess’ point about teams don’t do it is wrong. We know for a fact teams were willing to do it and I’m sure many teams would do it because he is still a productive player. I don’t think the leafs regret signing Tavares at all. His production has stayed consistent while not playing top line minutes despite losers who don’t know shit claiming that it dropped. And if you polled many GM’s I think a lot of GM’s would love Tavares because he would be their #1 Center playing with their best wingers, not their #2 Center and his role on their PP may look different. I’m always okay with paying a bit more for free agents.

The leafs will never regret signing a marquee UFA. They will forever regret those post ELC contracts that they had full control over and botched.



Again wrong, the reason Tavares is here is because it’s the only place he wanted to be. & if Dubas didn’t get it done, this market would have exploded. It would have been another summer of the leafs can’t sign marquee free agents. Dubas is a shit GM. Yada yada, let’s call a spade a spade. It wasn’t until after the ELC’s people called this deal bad.

I will agree that having 2 other 11 million dollar players has been a big problem but most people figured that after we had won the lottery we would be set. The rebuild was progressing smoothly But Dubas wanted to accelerate it and Tavares was absolutely the wrong thing at the time. Add in the fact that he got smoked by moth Marner and Matthews on contract negotiations has put us in a bad position with 3- 11 dollar players and it simply is not working if our goal is to win a cup.
No other team in the league is structured like this and 8 of them this year have moved on past us and one of them will win the cup…..without having obviously Tavares in their team

San Jose reportedly offered him 14M - lets not forget that the $11M was actually considered a discount at the time

Does anyone have proof or is it just reportedly as you have indicated

 

[Racer88]

Possibly...but this would have been after he decided to come here...did they think he was going to change his mind after publicly putting out the Pyjama Tweet? It could be other teams trying to look like they tried for their fanbases...or it could be BS from MLSE. I guess everyone has their opinion. I tend to think it was MLSE trying to make 11m seem like a steal.

Agree 100% until a GM comes out and says yes we offered him X number of dollars then it’s all just so much spin trying to make Dubas look better

Dismiss the things that hurt your argument as bunk. Accept the things that help as fact.

Do you have any proof of these offers to add into evidence

 

[ULF_55]

Tavares took less money to come home - TSN.ca

The perfect pitch convinced the star centre to chase his childhood dream with the Maple Leafs, Frank Seravalli writes.

www.tsn.ca

Sharks fall short in John Tavares sweepstakes, what’s next?

John Tavares is reportedly set to sign a seven-year contract with the Toronto Maple Leafs.

www.mercurynews.com

SAN JOSE, Calif. — The Sharks rolled out their finest teal carpet while pursuing John Tavares in free agency last summer.

They showed up to their face-to-face meeting with a contingent that included Hasso Plattner — the seldom-seen team owner and founder of tech giant SAP — and discussed not only the merits of a first-class organization, but also some of the off-ice business opportunities that would be available to him while living in Silicon Valley.


They were even willing to go as high as $91-million to sign No. 91, which is $2-million more per season on a seven-year deal than he ended up getting from the Toronto Maple Leafs.


The decision that turned the hockey world on its axis, with Tavares becoming just the second superstar in NHL history to leave his first team via free agency, boiled down to one boyhood photo.

Tavares himself sleeping in bed sheets adorned with Maple Leaf logos.

“It’s time to live my childhood dream,” Tavares said.

There is no place like home. It wasn’t about linemates, facilities, blind loyalty or dollars. Tavares left as much as $14 million on the table, since the San Jose Sharks were believed to have offered a seven-year, $91 million deal.

 

[socko]

If Tavares really wants to sacrifice to help the Leafs win the Stanley Cup then he'll free them of his terrible contract.

 

[Brobust]

Agree 100% until a GM comes out and says yes we offered him X number of dollars then it’s all just so much spin trying to make Dubas look better


Do you have any proof of these offers to add into evidence

I notice you didn't ask the other guy about proof. I never actually made a statement about believing anything.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I think all of the rumors of him being offered $13M are bunk because I read an Athletic article that said JT specifically told teams he did not want $$ to be involved in his decision. He was going to choose a team based on other factors. The day he confirmed he was signing with Toronto they decided to settle on a contract. Dubas offered 10M and JT said it was too low...then he offered 11M and away we went. So all of these stories on us having to outcompete SJ are probably just MLSE propaganda to make themselves look better. "We signed him for 11M when others offered 13M...how great is our organization?" type stuff.

Money is always a factor for a prime free agent.

Does anyone have proof or is it just reportedly as you have indicated

San Jose and Boston sent out tweets thanking Tavares for hearing their presentations. The Islanders reportedly offered 8 x $11-11.25M. The notion that Tavares was not in high demand is pretty far-fetched.

If Tavares really wants to sacrifice to help the Leafs win the Stanley Cup then he'll free them of his terrible contract.

Why would he sacrifice? He signed with the Leafs in good faith. If he wanted to be total schmuck (like I would!), he could respond to such a request by telling the Leafs they need to make a different sacrifice to help win a Cup.

 

[socko]

Or he can stay on, collect his cash, and Leaf fans favorite memory of him will be when his contract finally came to an end. That's the path he'll no doubt take. He's not Spezza.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Or he can stay on, collect his cash, and Leaf fans favorite memory of him will be when his contract finally came to an end. That's the path he'll no doubt take. He's not Spezza.

Or he'll waive because the Leafs turn into a non-playoff team. Or he will be Spezza. We'll find out in three years.

 

[Nylanderthal]

That would have been awesome


Pretty much what most intelligent hockey people think with the exception of a few here

Lol “intelligent” ok bud

 

[Nylanderthal]

I think all of the rumors of him being offered $13M are bunk because I read an Athletic article that said JT specifically told teams he did not want $$ to be involved in his decision. He was going to choose a team based on other factors. The day he confirmed he was signing with Toronto they decided to settle on a contract. Dubas offered 10M and JT said it was too low...then he offered 11M and away we went. So all of these stories on us having to outcompete SJ are probably just MLSE propaganda to make themselves look better. "We signed him for 11M when others offered 13M...how great is our organization?" type stuff.

Lol so now you’re making up stuff instead…

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Lol so now you’re making up stuff instead…

It was a Sportsnet article chronicling how it all came together in the last 24hrs. I was shocked that they did not discuss money and decided on 11M in a few hrs. Just because you didn't read the article doesn't give you the right to accuse people of lying.

"Tavares knew the Sharks were in huge. He had another massive deal from the Islanders, if he wanted it. He recognized he was getting less in Toronto, but understood that. The question was: What’s the acceptable number?

It’s believed the Maple Leafs were initially thinking between $10 and $10.5 million per year. They wanted him bad, but were mindful of the cap. “Saturday was when we took the plunge, knowing we had a real chance at this,” Dubas recalled last week. “But you are trying to be respectful of the rules. And this has to work. We couldn’t come over the top with an outlandish offer. John himself said we could not lead to subtraction. That was the major point he and I discussed.”

At approximately 9:00 p.m. Eastern time on Sat., June 30, Tavares called Dubas. “I told him I wanted to come,” Tavares says. “‘Let’s get it done.’”

The Maple Leafs committed to $11 million. It was over."

That was from this article...take a look and see if I copied and pasted it incorrectly.

How the biggest free agent in NHL history chose the Maple Leafs

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[Nylanderthal]

I will agree that having 2 other 11 million dollar players has been a big problem but most people figured that after we had won the lottery we would be set. The rebuild was progressing smoothly But Dubas wanted to accelerate it and Tavares was absolutely the wrong thing at the time. Add in the fact that he got smoked by moth Marner and Matthews on contract negotiations has put us in a bad position with 3- 11 dollar players and it simply is not working if our goal is to win a cup.
No other team in the league is structured like this and 8 of them this year have moved on past us and one of them will win the cup…..without having obviously Tavares in their team


Does anyone have proof or is it just reportedly as you have indicated

If you tell a lie enough times it becomes true. Matthews deal historically falls right in line with the other elite franchise 1c top picks since the cap era. Look at term & cap% for Crosby Malkin stamkos Tavares kopitar Duchene etc and look at Matthews deal and where he falls in that group.
Why would there be “proof” of contract offers that weren’t signed? It was widely reported by various outlets SJ specifically and others had and would’ve offered more.
The isles offered more aav and an extra year of term. That would’ve been Lou as well btw

It was a Sportsnet article chronicling how it all came together in the last 24hrs. I was shocked that they did not discuss money and decided on 11M in a few hrs. Just because you didn't read the article doesn't give you the right to accuse people of lying.

Why is any of that shocking? You knew it wasn’t going to be 8 or 9…. So why is that surprising? You sell the concept of the “marriage” then you iron out the details. It was also chronicled that the sharks offered more (13-14m) and that sweet Lou offered max term and more aav. I guess that doesn’t fit your narrative so it’s okay to exclude though.