John Tavares Discussion

[Stephen]

When he is used properly, he is extremely difficult to stop and can put up a ton of goals/points.

The guy still needs something to compliment though. He has never been the kind of guy who just does everything himself. He is the guy who makes his linemates look better... But if his linemates play like crap, there is only so much he can do to dress it up.

The one cold stretch he had in January-February, Nylander was playing even worse. Tavares looked much better in the times he was away from Nylander and he had linemates who were not playing like crap, and once Nylander started playing well again, the combo magically started working again.

You would think with all of the "old school" Leafs fans, they would appreciate what Tavares brings. But I guess since he doesn't throw punches or throw 300 hits a year that it diminishes his value to them.

If we can find him that one guy who can play in front of the net and handle some of the board battles once in a while, but is also able to compliment him and Nylander on the rush, then that line could be deadly. Doesn't even need to be the most skilled guy; even Galchenyuk was able to work fairly well despite being very cheap, and could have been that much better if he had better IQ.

I’m not sure Tavares appeals to “old school” Toronto fans just because he has a laboured skating stride. He doesn’t really play with that old school, heart and soul pacing or emotion level that fans gravitate towards. He’s kind of like a Ron Francis meets Larry Murphy a little bit and that doesn’t hit the Wendel-Dougie-Gary Roberts heart strings.

 

[banks]

I’m not sure Tavares appeals to “old school” Toronto fans just because he has a laboured skating stride. He doesn’t really play with that old school, heart and soul pacing or emotion level that fans gravitate towards. He’s kind of like a Ron Francis meets Larry Murphy a little bit and that doesn’t hit the Wendel-Dougie-Gary Roberts heart strings.

Holy moley, this is a great description.

Leafs fans have always been obsessed with the high effort types. Darcy Tucker is another one that comes to mind. He just tried so hard every shift, and got a bit of a cult following among Torontonians.

Your description makes a lot of sense in Tavares' case. He isn't as adored by the fanbase as I expected him to be, and I think you're right about why. Well, one reason why, anyway.

 

[Zur En Arrh]

We’ve had a ton of ‘nice things’. The struggle they have is knowing what to do with them.


Completely unrealistic

I wasn't referring to " them" the team. I was referring to " us" the fans

The very same? How do you know that?

because we read the board...

 

[Brobust]

Holy moley, this is a great description.

Leafs fans have always been obsessed with the high effort types. Darcy Tucker is another one that comes to mind. He just tried so hard every shift, and got a bit of a cult following among Torontonians.

Your description makes a lot of sense in Tavares' case. He isn't as adored by the fanbase as I expected him to be, and I think you're right about why. Well, one reason why, anyway.

You think Tavares isn't a high effort type?

His game is basically poor man's Crosby. He's an elite grinder.

 

[banks]

You think Tavares isn't a high effort type?

His game is basically poor man's Crosby. He's an elite grinder.

No, no. Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning his effort. But he doesn't look "high effort" with his slow skating, and intelligent positioning. He slows the game down. That's what I'm saying.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I’m not sure Tavares appeals to “old school” Toronto fans just because he has a laboured skating stride. He doesn’t really play with that old school, heart and soul pacing or emotion level that fans gravitate towards. He’s kind of like a Ron Francis meets Larry Murphy a little bit and that doesn’t hit the Wendel-Dougie-Gary Roberts heart strings.

It is not really the laboured skating style as much of a game that is a good synergy of hard-work and strength with skill. A guy who does little things to win and doesn't need flash, style, or to be a blazer to do it. Or even a guy where analytics do not capture the full weight of what he can bring to the table, both on and off the ice.

So instead he is just stuck in some kind of limbo where he can quietly go about being one of the better players in the NHL but nobody cares or knows enough to appreciate it. I guess not much unlike a Jason Spezza was, except Tavares (to this point) has been more effective than Spezza was when he entered his 30's.

 

[ACC1224]

I wasn't referring to " them" the team. I was referring to " us" the fans


because we read the board...

You track all the names and their opinions? Must have a lot of time on your hands.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You think Tavares isn't a high effort type?

His game is basically poor man's Crosby. He's an elite grinder.

No, no. Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning his effort. But he doesn't look "high effort" with his slow skating, and intelligent positioning. He slows the game down. That's what I'm saying.

It is not really the laboured skating style as much of a game that is a good synergy of hard-work and strength with skill. A guy who does little things to win and doesn't need flash, style, or to be a blazer to do it. Or even a guy where analytics do not capture the full weight of what he can bring to the table, both on and off the ice.

So instead he is just stuck in some kind of limbo where he can quietly go about being one of the better players in the NHL but nobody cares or knows enough to appreciate it. I guess not much unlike a Jason Spezza was, except Tavares (to this point) has been more effective than Spezza was when he entered his 30's.

These guys get it.

Glad to see there are still a few of us who appreciate what Tavares brings. He's no longer worth his cap hit but he is so much better than so many people are giving him credit for.

 

[Stephen]

It is not really the laboured skating style as much of a game that is a good synergy of hard-work and strength with skill. A guy who does little things to win and doesn't need flash, style, or to be a blazer to do it. Or even a guy where analytics do not capture the full weight of what he can bring to the table, both on and off the ice.

So instead he is just stuck in some kind of limbo where he can quietly go about being one of the better players in the NHL but nobody cares or knows enough to appreciate it. I guess not much unlike a Jason Spezza was, except Tavares (to this point) has been more effective than Spezza was when he entered his 30's.

I think there are two general types of heart and soul players from a classic Toronto point of view. The guy who is all motor and will take a punch in the nose or give a punch in the nose to get to where they need to go, do what they need to do and is basically the every man on the couch who wishes they were in the battle doing whatever it takes. Think Dougie, Wendel, Tucker, Roberts, Thomas maybe Bunting to some degree etc. Grabovski kind of.

Then you have the blue collar lower skill guys who are running uphill to make their contribution but don’t necessarily have that feistiness that makes them the kind of guy listed above. They’re quieter and work hard and take a beating. Like Connor Brown, Zach Hyman, Gary Valk, maybe Zezel, Osbourne, Berg.

Tavares kind of fits into the latter bucket stylistically and personality wise, but also not really because his work rate is also not always high. He has that efficiency mode where he looks like he’s ready for retirement. That’s why he’s a bit like a Ron Francis or a Larry Murphy even.

But then the big disconnect is why on earth is this try hard guy making superstar money? So on that heart strings, emotional level he’s never going to make that connection. He costs too much and doesn’t give you that star power oomph. That’s how it goes.

 

[ACC1224]

No, no. Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning his effort. But he doesn't look "high effort" with his slow skating, and intelligent positioning. He slows the game down. That's what I'm saying.

Yep, that's his game, nothing wrong with it. Wish he would add a little toughness to it though.

 

[WillyC]

For the haters who think they could do better… John Tavares will retire as a Toronto Maple Leaf.
When he signs his next team friendly contract… who’s gonna be first to continue dumping on him?

 

[Leafblooded]

Tavarish's contract is killing this team. That's all that needs to be said. I hope the team can somehow overcome this boulder load of a "captain".

 

[hamzarocks]

For the haters who think they could do better… John Tavares will retire as a Toronto Maple Leaf.
When he signs his next team friendly contract… who’s gonna be first to continue dumping on him?

Leafs will be either cup champs or in the middle of a new and lengthy rebuild when JT's contract is coming up.

There is no future beyond 2024. Matthews and WN control the leaf's future. They stay we can still hope and believe. If they leave, then we need to deal with MM quickly and have 1 year of JT as a cap dump/anchor before getting rid of him via F/A.

He won't be here if he can't elevate his own game and lead the team to a single series win in what will be 6 years when AM and WN are UFAs.

Also giving his first team-friendly contract with TML at 34 or so won't really matter.

In the 7 years of his prime, he'll have been significantly overpaid basically every year.

Year 1 --> 10M player
Year 2 --> 9M player
Year 3-4 --> 8ish M player

He's been overpaid and underwhelming the past three years. We didn't pay for JT to see his production fall back and his effort decline.

 

[saffronleaf]

kadri has played better tonight than jt has in any game this past season.

 

[LeafEgo]

Tavarish's contract is killing this team. That's all that needs to be said. I hope the team can somehow overcome this boulder load of a "captain".

If the boulder can't be moved I'd like to try and and overcome it by seeing if Marner can make him a goal scoring machine again. Having two lines with a 40 goal scorer was fun. Might have more overall team value than the amazing BMM line.

Matthews is pretty dangerous when cruising around the Ozone and capitalizing on opportunities as they present themselves. The Mitch will pass and Matthews will score system sometimes works against him.

 

[notDatsyuk]

For the haters who think they could do better… John Tavares will retire as a Toronto Maple Leaf.
When he signs his next team friendly contract… who’s gonna be first to continue dumping on him?

You don't have to be a 'hater' to understand that it's a bad contract, or a fan of his to understand that he will retire as a Leaf, probably at the end of his current contract.

At this point, the only 'team friendly' thing he could sign would be a waiver of his NMC.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Still way to much hate here for a guy that sits 12th in PPG for Maple Leafs all time while playing 2nd line minutes because two of the top 10 are currently on the team as well.

Sure his cap hit sucks to look at, but the pandemic screwed us more than anything else ans try finding somebody else that can produce that well on a consistent basis in the same role.

He shpuld be the least of our worries right now.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

These guys get it.

Glad to see there are still a few of us who appreciate what Tavares brings. He's no longer worth his cap hit but he is so much better than so many people are giving him credit for.

Bolded the problem. We're up against the cap, we have four forwards making almost half of it, and because of that we have makeshift pieces throughout the lineup. Maybe if JT is making 9M you add the extra room to Mrazek's current contract, tinker a little more and get a legit number 1 goalie. Maybe that salary goes towards a third line winger that can actually score in the playoffs when theres a goalie in the net. Just little moves like that that might turn the tide of a series. If Stammer was making 11M The lightning don't get Paul and maybe the Leafs win the series.

JT is still a great player (obviously) but in a Cap world value is just so important.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Still way to much hate here for a guy that sits 12th in PPG for Maple Leafs all time while playing 2nd line minutes because two of the top 10 are currently on the team as well.

Sure his cap hit sucks to look at, but the pandemic screwed us more than anything else ans try finding somebody else that can produce that well on a consistent basis in the same role.

He shpuld be the least of our worries right now.

We already have one, at 4M a season less, who is also getting better rather than worse.

 

[Leafblooded]

If the boulder can't be moved I'd like to try and and overcome it by seeing if Marner can make him a goal scoring machine again. Having two lines with a 40 goal scorer was fun. Might have more overall team value than the amazing BMM line.

Matthews is pretty dangerous when cruising around the Ozone and capitalizing on opportunities as they present themselves. The Mitch will pass and Matthews will score system sometimes works against him.

That's a positive I guess

We already have one, at 4M a season less, who is also getting better rather than worse.

We also used to have this guy named Kadri but then we traded him for Kerfoot and nothing

 

[All Mod Cons]

Tavares is no longer worth his cap hit.

For the haters who think they could do better… John Tavares will retire as a Toronto Maple Leaf.
When he signs his next team friendly contract… who’s gonna be first to continue dumping on him?

Imagine his skating at that point.

 

[Mess]

When you sign a bunch of $11 mil players like Tavares then you don't have the cap space to fill out the rosters depth.

Take this year's playoffs

Tavares 3 goals 3 assists 6 points for $11 mil
vs
Ex Leafs Zach Hyman (@$5.5 mil) .. 9 goals 4 assists 13 points + Kadri (@$4.5 mi) .. 6 goals 8 assists 14 points combined for 15 goals 12 assists 27 points & $2 mil free cap space to spare with a TD addition for $11 mil.

Leafs can't afford a bunch of $4-$6 mil secondary and depth players playing behind their core 4, like other more successful playoff teams can.

Too much cap in too few players and it all started with Tavares signing that took the Leafs out of Cup competitiveness and into lost in round #1 status quo.

JT's cap spread across 2-3 players as seen by example above would provide the Leafs so much more quality depth then needing to go bargin bin shopping each year playing around the edges for players making $1 mil or less and expecting them to carry the core 4 onwards through the playoffs. .

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

This signing is a big reason why we haven't watched 2nd round playoff hockey in the last 3 years. What a misstep.

 

[Mess]

I went to Capfriendly web site this morning .. CapFriendly - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

At the top righthand side of the page, under Popular Buyouts it lists Mrazek and Tavares as the top 2 on the list.

POPULAR BUYOUTS​

PLAYER
Petr Mrázek
John Tavares

So it appears Tavares contract is being recognized as a problem.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

If the boulder can't be moved I'd like to try and and overcome it by seeing if Marner can make him a goal scoring machine again. Having two lines with a 40 goal scorer was fun. Might have more overall team value than the amazing BMM line.

Matthews is pretty dangerous when cruising around the Ozone and capitalizing on opportunities as they present themselves. The Mitch will pass and Matthews will score system sometimes works against him.

I think having Mitch kind of hampers AM in a way because he is reactive instead of being on his toes knowing he has to create something. Waiting for Mitch to set him up vs going full bore and doing it himself seems to be the issue. He played pretty well without Mitch in December and I think he will be just fine without him. That gives JT his needed boost with MM.