Speculation: Jets - General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation (Part XVII)

[KingBogo]

IMO suggesting any trades that include any of the recent off-season RFA signings misses the mark of what True North and Chevy keep preaching. Even though Chevy didn't draft them a draft and develop strategy also includes identifying your core, signing them long term and building around them. Chevy is no dummy, he knows this team is a few years away, he told these guys we believe in you and we will build around you. If they start dishing off players 20 odd games after they sign 5-7 year contracts that strategy is halted in its footsteps. And since we are no ones destination of choice deviating from this strategy will set us up for a lifetime of developing and players leaving with holes filled by transient castoffs waiting for their opportunity to leave. Mediocrity for life.

IMO our one hope for a cup lies in growing our own and building loyalty through the organization and of course a fine eye for drafting a combination of talent and character.

 

[BigZ65]

IMO suggesting any trades that include any of the recent off-season RFA signings misses the mark of what True North and Chevy keep preaching. Even though Chevy didn't draft them a draft and develop strategy also includes identifying your core, signing them long term and building around them. Chevy is no dummy, he knows this team is a few years away, he told these guys we believe in you and we will build around you. If they start dishing off players 20 odd games after they sign 5-7 year contracts that strategy is halted in its footsteps. And since we are no ones destination of choice deviating from this strategy will set us up for a lifetime of developing and players leaving with holes filled by transient castoffs waiting for their opportunity to leave. Mediocrity for life.

IMO our one hope for a cup lies in growing our own and building loyalty through the organization and of course a fine eye for drafting a combination of talent and character.

If you aren't always evaluating every player, your roster and doing what needs to be done to make the team better as a GM, you aren't doing your job. If there is a hesitation to deal a guy like Wheeler or Bogosian in the upcoming off-season for the sole reason that he signed a deal the off-season prior, this organization will be committing itself to mediocrity. Several of our core players currently are in their prime years, expectations should be reasonably high, and if they can't push towards contention, changes need to be made to that group. Nobody is going to hold that over the Jets or any NHL team when it comes time to negotiate a contract.

 

[KingBogo]

If you aren't always evaluating every player, your roster and doing what needs to be done to make the team better as a GM, you aren't doing your job. If there is a hesitation to deal a guy like Wheeler or Bogosian in the upcoming off-season for the sole reason that he signed a deal the off-season prior, this organization will be committing itself to mediocrity. Several of our core players currently are in their prime years, expectations should be reasonably high, and if they can't push towards contention, changes need to be made to that group. Nobody is going to hold that over the Jets or any NHL team when it comes time to negotiate a contract.

People can jump up and down all they want saying we should trade XYZ. What would we get better in return for your core players? Do you think you will get more than a 65-70 point 1st line winger in his prime for Wheeler. Do you think you will get more than a 23 year old heavy minute eating second pairing defenseman, who is years from his prime for Bogosian? At best you would be shuffling deck chairs. The organization keeps telling everyone how they plan to build a contender, and everything they have done so far supports their long term plan. They are building from within.

 

[surixon]

IMO suggesting any trades that include any of the recent off-season RFA signings misses the mark of what True North and Chevy keep preaching. Even though Chevy didn't draft them a draft and develop strategy also includes identifying your core, signing them long term and building around them. Chevy is no dummy, he knows this team is a few years away, he told these guys we believe in you and we will build around you. If they start dishing off players 20 odd games after they sign 5-7 year contracts that strategy is halted in its footsteps. And since we are no ones destination of choice deviating from this strategy will set us up for a lifetime of developing and players leaving with holes filled by transient castoffs waiting for their opportunity to leave. Mediocrity for life.

IMO our one hope for a cup lies in growing our own and building loyalty through the organization and of course a fine eye for drafting a combination of talent and character.

Couldnt have said it any better.

 

[larmex99]

couldnt have said it any better.

amen!

 

[untouchable21]

And the New Jersey Devils trade their first round pick for Cory Schneider

Ok ok I know they had the pick going into draft day to drive ticket sales which is why they held on until the day of to pull off the deal

I do agree though they would need a 1st back

I would gladly take their 2015 1st rounder. No rule states it has to be the pick for the upcoming draft. Will that pick be as high as the 2014 pick but I would still gamble with the 2015 pick as it is generally considered a stronger draft year.


Something around Schenn, Cousins/Hagg and a 2015 1st is a deal I could be happy with. Maybe the JETS throw in a C prospect or 3rd rounder or cutout cousins /Hagg altogether if that's a sticking point.

 

[Aela*]

You don't trade core players for lateral movements or people you hope will become as good as them, you trade them to fill holes in your roster.

EG Schneider for Horvat

That's why some people are suggesting Schenn brothers + small plus for Bogo.

 

[Jet]

You don't trade core players for lateral movements or people you hope will become as good as them, you trade them to fill holes in your roster.

EG Schneider for Horvat

That's why some people are suggesting Schenn brothers + small plus for Bogo.

That is why people are suggesting it should be Buff for the Schenn's.

Why would you trade a still developing, very long term asset instead of an expiring, aging, peaked one? It really doesn't make any sense from the orgs philosophical standpoint. You build depth by trading away assets in decline, not assets on the rise.

The counter to this would be the other team doesn't want our declining asset but in this very case, it's known to be false. The Jets could really take a step forward in team building by trading Buff for the Schenns. Now and years into the future.

 

[Huffer]

Very interesting to me , quite liked what I have seen of him .

I haven't seen much, just World Juniors. Love a guy like Laughton though. He was the guy I was hoping would fall to us in round two that year.

 

[Guerzy]

I tend to believe Byfuglien is overrated. Yes he is a legit talent, but is he a top pairing defenseman? some say yes, I say no. Not if you want to compete and contend. Part of our struggles in my opinion are because we rely heavily on some players who are far too inconsistent to be relied upon in key, critical roles. Enter Dustin Byfuglien. You just never know what you are going to get from him game to game. Is Dustin going to help us win tonight vs. Chicago? or is he going to completely cost us the game? Who knows, we'll find out tonight, though.

Less is more for big Buff as far as I am concerned. Byfuglien is a second pairing defenseman on a contending/playoff team who can log big PP minutes and put up the points. But if you want him as your top pairing horse defending your zone night in, night out... .. Sure he can "win you a game" but what's that really matter when he can lose you the next? It's a vicious cycle with #33.

I just do not think Dustin Byfuglien is "that" defenseman. He puts up great points, no doubt, but he also hurts his team the other half of the time. Far, far too inconsistent and bipolar of a defenseman to be a #1 or top pairing guy you're going to rely on heavily at your most critical times. This Jets team is wildly inconsistent, and as far as I am concerned it's because they put their eggs in the baskets of some players are are... wildly inconsistent.

My opinion, of course.

 

[truck]

I tend to believe Byfuglien is overrated. Yes he is a legit talent, but is he a top pairing defenseman? some say yes, I say no. Not if you want to compete and contend. Part of our struggles in my opinion are because we rely heavily on some players who are far too inconsistent to be relied upon in key, critical roles. Enter Dustin Byfuglien. You just never know what you are going to get from him game to game. Is Dustin going to help us win tonight vs. Chicago? or is he going to completely cost us the game? Who knows, we'll find out tonight, though.

Less is more for big Buff as far as I am concerned. Byfuglien is a second pairing defenseman on a contending/playoff team who can log big PP minutes and put up the points. But if you want him as your top pairing horse defending your zone night in, night out... .. Sure he can "win you a game" but what's that really matter when he can lose you the next? It's a vicious cycle with #33.

I just do not think Dustin Byfuglien is "that" defenseman. He puts up great points, no doubt, but he also hurts his team the other half of the time. Far, far too inconsistent and bipolar of a defenseman to be a #1 or top pairing guy you're going to rely on heavily at your most critical times. This Jets team is wildly inconsistent, and as far as I am concerned it's because they put their eggs in the baskets of some players are are... wildly inconsistent.

My opinion, of course.

How many games has Buff cost the Jets this year?

Maybe one? Definitely less than Bogo.

 

[Grind]

I tend to believe Byfuglien is overrated. Yes he is a legit talent, but is he a top pairing defenseman? some say yes, I say no. Not if you want to compete and contend. Part of our struggles in my opinion are because we rely heavily on some players who are far too inconsistent to be relied upon in key, critical roles. Enter Dustin Byfuglien. You just never know what you are going to get from him game to game. Is Dustin going to help us win tonight vs. Chicago? or is he going to completely cost us the game? Who knows, we'll find out tonight, though.

Less is more for big Buff as far as I am concerned. Byfuglien is a second pairing defenseman on a contending/playoff team who can log big PP minutes and put up the points. But if you want him as your top pairing horse defending your zone night in, night out... .. Sure he can "win you a game" but what's that really matter when he can lose you the next? It's a vicious cycle with #33.

I just do not think Dustin Byfuglien is "that" defenseman. He puts up great points, no doubt, but he also hurts his team the other half of the time. Far, far too inconsistent and bipolar of a defenseman to be a #1 or top pairing guy you're going to rely on heavily at your most critical times. This Jets team is wildly inconsistent, and as far as I am concerned it's because they put their eggs in the baskets of some players are are... wildly inconsistent.

My opinion, of course.

How many games has Buff cost the Jets this year?

Maybe one? Definitely less than Bogo.

yah matt i gotta disagree with you on this. The whole "his style doesn't lead to winning" thing is overblown and there's not really a basis for it.

Buff may not be a clear cut #1 D man, but he's definitly a first pairing dman. I think you might just be getting sick of the devil you know, if you know what i mean. Style doesn't = wins. Style = narrative. Results = wins. Buff gets results (positive ones too, despite what most peoples "eyes" tell them).

It's interesting that we sort of agree on his value in trade but see him differently this way, i must be even higher on schenn then you ( Im VERY high on brayden, i've always seen him/hoped for him to be the second coming of mike richards). He's my matt douchene for sure

I think timewise it makes sense to move buff for the two younger assets. I do think luke does have value still (if we still believe bogo can become a top pairing dman, then you've got to extend the same benefit of the doubt to Luke)

That being said, with the way bogo's played this year... I have to admit i've lost a bit of faith. I would not be nearly as opposed to moving bogo and resigning buff at this stage as I would have last year. That being said, i'd probably want more for bog then buff.

 

[Huffer]

Very good post as usual Matt.

I agree with what you're saying, and disagree slightly at the same time.

I think Buff is a top pairing guy. Is he in the realm of Suter or Weber? No. But when you look at the 30 teams, not every team is blessed with a Suter or a Weber. The guys who can play 25 minutes plus a night, and have very little negatives to their games. Heck, even Suter has a negative if you consider his lack of offensive contribution.

I think baring a few examples, the majority of top pairing D men in the league carry a combo of positive qualities and negative. Letang, Karlsson, and Subban put up great offense, but none of them are the guys you want on the ice down a man in the last 2 minutes of the game. Their defensive game is not strong enough. Keith is an excellent skating D man, but can be inconsistent as well, and isn't a monster physically. Etc. And some teams don't even have quality 1st pairing guys.

Buff may have more of a total swing from bad to good in his game I will agree with you there. I.E. When he is on, he is simply dominant. There have been some games this year he has flat out won for us. He simply owned the Flyers IMO. But his "bad Buff" games can be lower than you would like from your top guy. The game is Chicago was terrible for a junior B player. I think we have seen much more good than bad this year, but that trend is troubling for sure. You add in his age, his contract, his size and his shape which could be worrisome as he approaches 30 and beyond, and there are some question marks there to be sure.

I could be wrong, and I guess we will see IF Buff ever gets dealt, but I think with the way he has played on D in the last few years, what he brings to a team, and the premium on right handed PMD, I think his value in the league is pretty high. He is simply too much of a mouth watering player for a GM (like a Holmgren) to look at and think that with Buff and some of his forwards, he could help take that team into the playoffs.

One thing I think with Buff's value correlates to the $ that professional athletes make. A professional athlete doesn't make the obscene amount of money because of the value that they bring to society, they make the obscene amount of money they make because of the scarcity of the talent they posses relative to every other person in the world. I think Buff's value is somewhat like that as well. There really are no other D men in the league that bring to the table what Buff brings. I really don't see any other D man in the league that brings Buff's skating, offense, passing, AND size to the table. My hypothesis is that this scarcity of talent is what should enable Buff to have a very high trade value.

 

[Guerzy]

How many games has Buff cost the Jets this year?

Maybe one? Definitely less than Bogo.

I can certainly agree he has been better this year, but I still don't think he's to the level that you want from your #1/top pairing guy you're hitching your wagon and key minutes to. I don't know how many games he's cost us, but I do think he's had enough of his "Buff moments" this year to defy that he's the same defenseman. He's surely played with less risk, certainly, I still am not sold on him though. Byfuglien is just too inconsistent for my liking. If we ever want to be a legitimate playoff team/contender one day, it won't be with #33 playing the role for us that he does now, in my opinion.

I just don't believe he is that guy, but he's used in that role.

Bogo, ya, he hasn't been very good either.

Valid points, guys. Perhaps I should clarify more. I thought I mentioned it in my post, but I believe Byfuglian can be a top pairing guy, sure, but in my opinion it won't be on any team worth a damn. I just don't see him as a top guy on a contender. Ever.

 

[Grind]

Very good post as usual Matt.

I agree with what you're saying, and disagree slightly at the same time.

I think Buff is a top pairing guy. Is he in the realm of Suter or Weber? No. But when you look at the 30 teams, not every team is blessed with a Suter or a Weber. The guys who can play 25 minutes plus a night, and have very little negatives to their games. Heck, even Suter has a negative if you consider his lack of offensive contribution.

I think baring a few examples, the majority of top pairing D men in the league carry a combo of positive qualities and negative. Letang, Karlsson, and Subban put up great offense, but none of them are the guys you want on the ice down a man in the last 2 minutes of the game. Their defensive game is not strong enough. Keith is an excellent skating D man, but can be inconsistent as well, and isn't a monster physically. Etc. And some teams don't even have quality 1st pairing guys.

Buff may have more of a total swing from bad to good in his game I will agree with you there. I.E. When he is on, he is simply dominant. There have been some games this year he has flat out won for us. He simply owned the Flyers IMO. But his "bad Buff" games can be lower than you would like from your top guy. The game is Chicago was terrible for a junior B player. I think we have seen much more good than bad this year, but that trend is troubling for sure. You add in his age, his contract, his size and his shape which could be worrisome as he approaches 30 and beyond, and there are some question marks there to be sure.

I could be wrong, and I guess we will see IF Buff ever gets dealt, but I think with the way he has played on D in the last few years, what he brings to a team, and the premium on right handed PMD, I think his value in the league is pretty high. He is simply too much of a mouth watering player for a GM (like a Holmgren) to look at and think that with Buff and some of his forwards, he could help take that team into the playoffs.

One thing I think with Buff's value correlates to the $ that professional athletes make. A professional athlete doesn't make the obscene amount of money because of the value that they bring to society, they make the obscene amount of money they make because of the scarcity of the talent they posses relative to every other person in the world. I think Buff's value is somewhat like that as well. There really are no other D men in the league that bring to the table what Buff brings. I really don't see any other D man in the league that brings Buff's skating, offense, passing, AND size to the table. My hypothesis is that this scarcity of talent is what should enable Buff to have a very high trade value.

Exactly.

An easy way toa sk yourself is he a top pairing D man on a contending team.. well... are their 30 defensemen you think are better then dustin byfuglien?

Keep in mind, pretty much every high point producing dman has the same warts as buff, and most are far worse. There's only so many Suters/Webers/Chara's to go around.


I'll say it right now, when talking about trying to win a cup this spring, there isn't 30-40 dmen i'd rather have then dustin byfuglien

 

[Mathmew Purrrr Oh]

I tend to believe Byfuglien is overrated. Yes he is a legit talent, but is he a top pairing defenseman? some say yes, I say no. Not if you want to compete and contend. Part of our struggles in my opinion are because we rely heavily on some players who are far too inconsistent to be relied upon in key, critical roles. Enter Dustin Byfuglien. You just never know what you are going to get from him game to game. Is Dustin going to help us win tonight vs. Chicago? or is he going to completely cost us the game? Who knows, we'll find out tonight, though.

Less is more for big Buff as far as I am concerned. Byfuglien is a second pairing defenseman on a contending/playoff team who can log big PP minutes and put up the points. But if you want him as your top pairing horse defending your zone night in, night out... .. Sure he can "win you a game" but what's that really matter when he can lose you the next? It's a vicious cycle with #33.

I just do not think Dustin Byfuglien is "that" defenseman. He puts up great points, no doubt, but he also hurts his team the other half of the time. Far, far too inconsistent and bipolar of a defenseman to be a #1 or top pairing guy you're going to rely on heavily at your most critical times. This Jets team is wildly inconsistent, and as far as I am concerned it's because they put their eggs in the baskets of some players are are... wildly inconsistent.

My opinion, of course.

I see inconsistency from A LOT of top pairing defencemen from other teams - watching Suter and Brodin (who aren't even offensive powerhouses like Buff) the last couple games was painful - Seabrook was pretty terrible most of last season and it didn't seem to hurt the Hawks much

Edler and Weber have played like ass recently

Buff's "inconsistency" of late can also be partially attributable to being paired with another high-event player in Clitsome who is playing a spot or 2 too high in the lineup and they are facing the other teams toughs when Noel/Huddy has a choice in the matter.

I wanna say that Buff is a top pairing guy on a playoff team simply because there aren't 32 better dmen in the league. It's trite but it'll work. Personally I don't think there are 20 better.

It's already been shown at AIH that results-wise Buff and Toby are a top 6 pairing in the NHL and it's certainly not all Toby

Who on the Jets do you think IS a top pairing Dman to fit with Toby? Bogo? Bogo will be anywhere from a really good 3 to a solid 4 who can pitch in on the top pairing when circumstances dictate and that's it. Trouba has the potential but that's a couple years away if he roofs it.

Maybe you don't like dealing with the variance that Buff's game brings but I love it, much like Pittsburgh fans love Letang or Ottawa fans love Karlsson. I also like that he's exciting and is STILL a net positive.

Now I'm all for trading Buff if it gets us a 2C + simply due to team needs and his contract situation, but don't kid yourself if you think the backend won't take a massive hit with him gone.

 

[Huffer]

How many games has Buff cost the Jets this year?

Maybe one? Definitely less than Bogo.

That being said, with the way bogo's played this year... I have to admit i've lost a bit of faith. I would not be nearly as opposed to moving bogo and resigning buff at this stage as I would have last year. That being said, i'd probably want more for bog then buff.

I don't think we will hear if Bogo was really playing this season injured or not. With the way his skating looked all year, and the fact that it took basically nothing (no big hit, I don't think anything that is captured on screen), for Bogo to now have a serious groin injury, it's obvious to me that he has been playing injured. Maybe others don't think so, or think that's an excuse, but I've thought he was injured since the beginning of the season, and his play has reflected that IMO.

I think some of the comments about Bogo's recent 21 games this year, and how he's been a disappointment, and people now talking about trading him are more than surprising, and especially from people that have been here for years.

Does no one remember how Bogo played last year? When he missed the first half of the shortened season, played his first game in February, and played 25 bloody minutes? He immediately stepped in the lineup, Enstrom gets injured the same night, and Bogo is one of our best defenseman.

There seems to be a lot of hand wringing for a guy that's shown how good he can be as recent as last season, over a 20 game stretch where there's a high probability he's been playing injured.

 

[Guerzy]

I see inconsistency from A LOT of top pairing defencemen from other teams - watching Suter and Brodin (who aren't even offensive powerhouses like Buff) the last couple games was painful - Seabrook was pretty terrible most of last season and it didn't seem to hurt the Hawks much

Edler and Weber have played like ass recently

Buff's "inconsistency" of late can also be partially attributable to being paired with another high-event player in Clitsome who is playing a spot or 2 too high in the lineup and they are facing the other teams toughs when Noel/Huddy has a choice in the matter.

I wanna say that Buff is a top pairing guy on a playoff team simply because there aren't 32 better dmen in the league. It's trite but it'll work. Personally I don't think there are 20 better.

It's already been shown at AIH that results-wise Buff and Toby are a top 6 pairing in the NHL and it's certainly not all Toby

Who on the Jets do you think IS a top pairing Dman to fit with Toby? Bogo? Bogo will be anywhere from a really good 3 to a solid 4 who can pitch in on the top pairing when circumstances dictate and that's it. Trouba has the potential but that's a couple years away if he roofs it.

Maybe you don't like dealing with the variance that Buff's game brings but I love it, much like Pittsburgh fans love Letang or Ottawa fans love Karlsson. I also like that he's exciting and is STILL a net positive.

Now I'm all for trading Buff if it gets us a 2C + simply due to team needs and his contract situation, but don't kid yourself if you think the backend won't take a massive hit with him gone.

Excellent post and all great points.

I think what it boils down to is Byfuglien just isn't my favorite type of defenseman. If he was on our second pair, then I'd likely be more of a fan. Personal preference, I suppose.

 

[Mathmew Purrrr Oh]

Excellent post and all great points.

I think what it boils down to is Byfuglien just isn't my favorite type of defenseman. If he was on our second pair, then I'd likely be more of a fan. Personal preference, I suppose.

If he was on our second pair I'd launch a civil suit for mismanagement

 

[Majikme]

Man all this Schenn talk is getting me excited. I mean, its still very unlikely i guess, but i just have a wierd feeling

 

[Grind]

If he was on our second pair I'd launch a civil suit for mismanagement

...or would you be ecstatic as we'd be rolling in the cups with our two BETTER d men on the top pair?

I get why some don't like Buff due to stylistic tendancies and what not. I just think realistically, it's hard to find a D man of buff's calibre regardless of style.

Essentially, we're going to be giving up a lot to replace him withe a player thats as good results wise and better stylistically.

You've got a Porsche. Quit kvetching just because it isn't your favorite color.

 

[Huffer]

From what I am hearing it could very well be a possibility that Jets indeed make that move for the Schenns.

I know we kind of flew past this in the fervor to discuss the "options", but I have to ask Joe, what are you hearing?

It seems like you have some sort of "connection" either with Jets scouts or something.

 

[surixon]

I would rather keep Bogo than Buff long term. For those who want to reup Buff are you comfortable with a 5 plus year deal in around 7.5 to 8 million a year? He will be 30 at time of his next deal. To me it doesn't seem line a smart bet to take.

 

[Mathmew Purrrr Oh]

I would rather keep Bogo than Buff long term. For those who want to reup Buff are you comfortable with a 5 plus year deal in around 7.5 to 8 million a year? He will be 30 at time of his next deal. To me it doesn't seem line a smart bet to take.

never said I wanted to re-sign him - was mostly arguing that he was a top pairing Dman

Keeping Bogo and trading Buff for the proper parts is totally the correct thing to do.

 

[Guerzy]

...or would you be ecstatic as we'd be rolling in the cups with our two BETTER d men on the top pair?

I get why some don't like Buff due to stylistic tendancies and what not. I just think realistically, it's hard to find a D man of buff's calibre regardless of style.

Essentially, we're going to be giving up a lot to replace him withe a player thats as good results wise and better stylistically.

You've got a Porsche. Quit kvetching just because it isn't your favorite color.

I don't think it's as simple as just favorite color, for me. I just think there are other types and styles of cars out there that I think would be of better fit, more reliable. Will we ever get one? maybe, maybe not. Should I be happy with what we've got? probably, maybe, but maybe not.

And, for me it's not just a Byfuglien problem with this team, it's Pavelec, Wheeler, Bogosian, etc. We're an inconsistent team because those who we rely on the most are inconsistent, in my opinion. I think, or hope they can be good enough, consistent enough. They'll have to be if this core group will ever be worth a damn.