Value of: Jesse Puljujarvi, Andrej Sekera, 1st round pick
- Thread starter Llamamoto
- Start date
It's been a polarizing idea among Wild fans, but I think it's worth considering.
- Dec 10, 2012
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Shouldn't they know better than to try to do that as well? You know, based on the fact that they've had high picks for the last decade and still haven't been able to do it?
Except trades like this can happen. And everybody else make trade that improve their team. Why do you object to the Oiler fans wanting their team to do the same?
I am happy to stand on my overall record.
This WAS a bad proposal, I was too generous w/EDM
that said, the bolded comment was not as to the proposal, but as feedback to someone who went negative for my opinion on Nieves as a stopgap C able to be paired with Kreider due to speed + complementary = synergy.
Whether I am correct or not on that point, while most of our board disagrees with my overly optimistic assessment, most acknowledge there is no good reason not to try.
none
everything to gain
nothing to lose
and in sports, we see sometimes
the .240 hitter who owns the Cy Young winner, due to chemistry
Boo is better than that .240 guy but the point is to try for the chemistry, at least until Kravtsov is here.
And then if we still have enough pivot depth, I'd go with Howden and Nieves to see how well that power speed duo would work.
So criticism if constructive may be fair, if there is a good reason.
But to dismiss the option to try IS CLOSE MINDED.
Thank you for the thumbs up.
However, after having an open mind to critics vs, I have concluded I was more than a tad too generous to Oil here
will try again over w/e
Shootertooter
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- Feb 20, 2016
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Because you are only going to get shittier long term. Is this not very obvious?
Make short term deals to improve the team when it is actually a deep organization.
At some point the Oilers need to stop the cycle of trading for and signing mediocre veterans.
Also... 5 million is a 2nd line player. Not going to move the needle a whole lot in team performance.
Shootertooter
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- Feb 20, 2016
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What is your overall record in your mind?
This is not "most" of the board disagreeing with you here........everyone disagreed with you regarding Nieves. E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E!!!!!!! The reason not to try it is that Nieves, is a pretty mediocre hockey player at best(I think that is being quite generous). That you have twisted this as "no good reason not to try" is merely semantics and word smithing along with terrible ability to judge talent on your part. ......whatever speed over skill for the #1 C job is not synergy. You do not plug a player into a spot way above his capability. It is not thinking outside the box, it is not being creative......it is setting oneself up for failure and handicapping the team.
If you want to see that as negativity....you can, I prefer to see it as common sense and reality. How are you convinced that Boo is better than that .240 player? Nieves is not a really talented player. What has he done to even be a .240 player? He is likely going to be a career AHL player. Just because he might be able to keep up with Kreider, which I think is a preposterous notion, as if anyone else on the team can't or Nieves is just so much faster than everyone else as the reason to give him the #1 spot, is simply absurd. I do not think scoffing at your play to make a sub par player the #1 is being closed minded. I think opposing it is totally rational actually. This might be one of those times you look in the mirror and ask your self if it is you, considering nobody agrees with what you are saying here.
What to gain/what to lose?
Interrupting chemistry in lieu of symetry is a loss. Symetry is a balance.........other than your claim of Nieves speed, he has no balance with Kreider. Do you really think Kreider will play better than he has with Nieves as opposed to either Zib or Hayes? Having both Hayes and Kreider lose scoring pace would be a loss and could submarine their trade values. Do you honestly think Nieves will come in and make Kreider a better scorer? I can't see any realistic expectation in that. Therefore I see no logical reason to try.
If you had said just give Chytil the #1 or Andersson the #2, I would agree as both are superior skilled players who are being counted on as the future of this organization and this season is lost anyway, but Nieves just does not make any sense. I don't see any good coming from it.
And once again regarding Kravtsov, he is not going to be the #1 C either. You made this point based on hearsay from someone who said he can play center.......................which has been reported as accurate, however he is not a center so thinking the Rangers will make him the #1 is obviously more of your overly optimistic giddiness..........it is not a remotely intelligent assessment and is completely based on you relying on what someone else said rather than actually looking into the player. I've pointed this out several times to you. It is obviously what you want to believe and you are fixated on it so you have refused to verify it for yourself.
Hey, Gilmour is kind of fast, maybe he can be the C?
That is my constructive criticism, to continue to tout a plan based on "synergy" which I'm not quite sure you really understand the definition of and not logic, nor putting the best guy in position to succeed is being oblivious to actual reality.
780il
edm
Moving Dumba alone for that package would be a mistake. Regardless, the Oilers don't have the cap space for Nino or Coyle, let alone both of them.
I have addressed these points fully.
I will not repeat myself constantly b'c you insist on being contrarian.
Your allegations of my assessments are not inherently correct, and mine not inherently wrong, therefore it is questionable how "constructive" your "criticism" is.
Just one clear, objective not subjective, example of this is re: Kravtsov. I heard he had vision and some experience at pivot [to go with the physical gifts] so he was a possible C candidate. Then lately, that comes to pass. An esteemed poster of stature -- RangerBoy -- reported it, and he has actually been playing there, reportedly, during the current tournament. All this makes it more likely, not less, that he can be a 1C candidate. You, however are first forced to concede that news item "has been reported as accurate," but you then insist to the contrary, without any just basis, "however he is not a center". DESPITE THE FACT HE ACTUALLY IS PLAYING CENTER.
I say things and you dismiss them.
How well Hayes does or does not play with Kreider is irrelevant, if he is here, he can anchor another line, and if not while we trade him as a rental, it is irrelevant 'cause he won't be here.
I already explained, Nieves is defensively responsible, he would allow Kreider and Zib/Chytil to drive the offense.
And beyond that, the size and the speed, chemistry is an intangible thing, it is an x factor. It may be there, it may not, but there is no reason to give a legit chance.
I have extended this final courtesy to you.
This thread is not the forum for all things Nieves, ongoing. As you know, such thread exists at the Ranger board.
It is proper to include reference to how pertinent it is to have Nieves as depth this year if Hayes/Zib are dealt, to extent that relates to this thread. Beyond such legit application, I am not risking going into thread hijacking territory because you feel a compelling need to tell me water is not wet.
If you bring up Nieves out of context in other non Nieves threads, I will not go there, but insert something like 'asked and answered'.
Shootertooter
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- Feb 20, 2016
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You obviously also have no idea what contrarian actually means because it reflects popular opinion. The popular opinion here is disagreeing with your assessment of Nieves. I'd suffice to say your opinion is not all that popular on this topic and now Kravtsov but I do appreciate your back peddling. Contrarian also means going against an accepted norm....kind of like some of your 12pc proposals that totally go against the normal operating procedure of the NHL.
I invite you to revisit what I said about Kravtsov. He was not drafted to be a C in NY. He was drafted as a winger due to the lack of W depth here. He is a wing who can play C, I apparently read the same stuff that the other guy did, that you didn't. I've maintained he could play C all along, just that he is a wing in the KHL. If you are saying that because he is playing C in the Worlds right now is a basis for why he will be the future #1 on the Rangers, I have to question your ability to rationalize organizational depth.
The fact that you have already penciled Kravtsov in as the future #1C on the NYR says way more about your distorted thought process than me dismissing you for said distorted thought process, considering it is clear you don't know a thing about the guy and are making your assessment solely because some "esteemed" poster said he can play C and that the coach of Team Russia is using him in a different than normal position.
You have made your whole point based on someone else's perception, not you actually knowing something about the guy and you insist your perspective should be correct and should be taken seriously. You've also now changed the narrative and gone from making Kravtsov a lock for the future #1 to him being a guy with vision, who had some experience at C, who could possibly be a C......despite you clearly saying he IS the future #1C in earlier posts. That is a lot different than Nieves holding down the fort at #1 until he gets here. That is the difference between saying something based on your opinion and replacing that with something completely logical or plausible.
Maybe at some point Kravtsov could play C in some capacity, but you saying he will be the future #1 is a tremendous premature reach. There is no real basis for assuming he will be the #1. Just like there is no basis assuming or rationalizing that Nieves can be the #1. Both are simply your opinion and your desire to be correct again in one confused jumbled mess.
Saying Zib or Hayes should be centering Kreider because they are the better C's on the team would be akin to saying water is wet, it is indeed factual. Saying Nieves should be Kreider's center over both because he may have "synergy" while ignoring his lack of skill, lesser skill level or incapability to actually play at that level, is completely asinine and is based on no logic other than you think your opinion is correct while virtually anyone who has responded to you here thinks you are a fruitcake.
Water being wet has no bearing on what you are claiming or stating either......Water being wet is actually factual. You have an uncanny ability to try and elevate your opinion/position as being factual when it isn't. If you say something intelligent or something that makes sense, you will find that people will not constantly dismiss you as the crazy guy as they do. Try it some time.
I responded to things you said in this thread about Nieves because you brought it up. You mentioned it in this thread in the post where you said something about your overall record......so there is that. So explaining that you no longer want to address it is noted but it is also noted that you are the guy who brought up the Nieves thing in the first place.
One final thing on Nieves since you mentioned it, there is nothing wrong with Nieves being depth......that is actually the fairest assessment of what he is. However, even if Zib or Hayes is traded, there are better players in the organization who will slot in before Nieves. The fact is that he is a depth player, a bottom 6 C and likely nothing more than a 4th line C at best.
While I appreciate the "Asked/Answered" silliness, how about you rationalizing things first, considering actual reality for a change and then asking yourself why would anyone do that? If you did that, I'd bet that people wouldn't have such adverse reactions to what you say here. If all else fails, look in the mirror every now and then. It IS you Bern. Almost always, it IS you.
Lastly, regarding you being a tad generous in your latest proposal, it was hot garbage and a complete inability to determine value, not generosity. I am still interested in what you perceive is your overall record. I think we would all have a hoot in learning that.
Peace
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ChaoticOrange
Registered User
A touch rich coming from a fan of a team heading for its own tenth straight playoff miss...
ChaoticOrange
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Clayonator
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InTkachukWeTrust
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- Nov 10, 2013
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Dorian won't be able to sign Duchene and Stone so I'm willing to trade Duchene. What would you offer Oiler fans?
As and for a last word on this subject.
Generally
agree to disagree, asked and answered
Reserving my right to indicate correction(s)
on Nieves
only a handful of haters want this idea to fail, 'cause were it to succeed that would be in NYR best interests. Only a handful agree with me outright that it would succeed. I appreciate and accept that. I have been against the grain and proven correct before [Stepan]. But the accepted conventional wisdom here is the Rangers [like other clubs] should do whatever profitable moves they can to improve b'c at this point they don't have the horses.
You argue the one side, playing our best players on the same line is a power move. It may be but the other side of the coin may also work, spreading the talent down and throughout the lineup.
No one side is correct in all situations 100% of the time
It depends upon the pieces involved, and the team circumstances.
Yielding to my demand to a legitimate experiment [not 2 or 3 unprepared shifts and that is it] is something that costs virtually nothing, but could work. You are the one who is blindly adamant that it is mathematically impossible, it has been preordained by God Himself that it can only fail.
Success or failure will depend upon chemistry, which will require actual field test.
Columbus was scoffed at. Until he returned, not from Cathay, but the Americas which lay in between.
Give me my ships, Coach Quinn, and this debate will end, I expect with my prediction confirmed.
on Kravtsov
I on my own did some reading on the boards as to his skill set
same was applicable to indicators of a successful pivot
and his elite skating, vision, shooting skills are not unreasonable to consider as first liner.
So yeah, they understandably didn't put pressure on the kid and anoint him the 1C upon arrival, also not looking to insult Zib or anyone else who is [still] here. But whether they said F or W, it is clear he has already PROVEN he can play C at his current level. THAT is the basis for my point being taken. It is supplemental that it is reported by RangerBoy, arguably our most esteemed poster, with whom I disagree on a few items, but who is someone I very largely hold in high regard and often agree with.
I leave you as you left me
Peace out.
Shootertooter
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- Feb 20, 2016
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Nobody indicated they wanted Nieves to fail, they simply comprehend he is not a good enough player to be used as a #1 and that you were not using logic or facts to justify why you felt he could do it. They also understand that both Chytil and Andersson haven't garnered much of a fair opportunity to show what they can do, so trying to thrust Nieves into that seems even more awkward considering he is a lesser skilled player.
Considering you feel you had some support on this, I'd appreciate anyone who actually agreed with you to speak up. I think more accurately it was simply you and the mouse in your pocket, as someone else pointed out in the first go around. Nobody supported your cockamamie idea. Again, there is a difference between what you claim...."haters wanting this to fail" and the reality of those who understand Nieves is nothing more than a fringe NHL player, who has no business being on NYR's top line due to the fact he is not a good enough player. Chemistry does not matter if one is ill equipped to produce or play in that role...................and of course your notion relies on the assumption that there is some sort of chemistry.
My belief that your experiment is hot trash takes into account Nieves ability, which clearly you didn't consider. That is a realistic basis on how all moves are considered......is the guy skilled enough? Can he physically succeed? Is this an upgrade or downgrade? Synergy/chemistry is not a likely a primary consideration, it either happens or doesn't and is not a strong reason for making moves.
Sure you can put a terrible player in at any position but your expectation of success should based on the reality that he is/isn't the best player for the job. Your only justification for Nieves being the #1 is claiming he can keep up with Kreider and they have synergy. That is seemingly worthless and insulting to anyone who actually tries to think about the game. He is not the best player for the job and I believe logic suggests he can't offer anything that Zib or Hayes is already doing with Kreider.
Kravtsov.....again, a person having traits that may be essential for a position does not mean they should automatically be considered the optimum option. I would say those traits you mentioned are necessary to be successful at any top level and don't automatically qualify him for being a teams top line C. You have jumped all in on both Nieves and Kravtsov to support your "experiment" in your desire to be correct without considering that they might not be good options or have the ability necessary to be a fit. Maybe when Kravtsov goes back to the KHL he plays C, who knows. But you simply penciling him in as our future #1 is just you making an outlandish assumption which is not all that surprising. His natural position is on the wing. Things would really have to go bad to have him become the actual #1 here. Again, I am going to point out here this is a guy who is not playing C in the KHL, so expecting him to come in and be the NYR #1C of the future is simply unjustified speculation on your part.
If you are going to respond and talk about naysayers and haters please understand something......I, like many other Ranger fans, want what is ultimately best for the team. We don't go tit for tat to hang out hats on the few times we might be correct about something as you obviously do(Stepan). That said, your proposals and experiments are met with opposition because they are most often barely rational, not well thought out, usually completely unrealistic and seemingly handicapping to the team. Nobody wants that for the team. Remember the mirror thing.
Is the Stepan thing your sole shining moment here? You weren't alone in realizing that he had to be moved before the NMC kicked in............................but, revel in it friend. Apparently your shining moments here have been few and far between.
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