That's nice that the hockey journalists thought so, but Theo never sniffed 76 goals in 77 games.
Last edited:
Jeremy Roenick, Shea Weber and Pavel Datsyuk inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame
- Thread starter Marc the Habs Fan
- Start date
That's nice that the hockey journalists thought so, but Theo never sniffed 76 goals in 77 games.
Yes, and on that stacked team Keith was arguably its best player for at least two of those Cup wins.
Jason MacIsaac
Registered User
bleedblue94
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2004
- 9,186
- 9,631
You just said he was one of the top 5, that is consistent with what I said. I said he was one of the best but never THE best, regardless it was not for a decade that he was in that top 5 realm, dont exaggerate
He was elite for an extended period of time. If you took all the other d-men who played in the NHL over a 10 - 12 year period, yes, Weber would be top-5. He was also arguably the best a couple years as written by a few posters here with some of those controversial 2nd place Norris finishes.
Being elite for an extended period of time generally qualifies somebody for induction on their first try which is what happened with Weber
bleedblue94
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2004
- 9,186
- 9,631
Okay, so he was not the best at any point and you're actually not arguing that he was, you're just making a case for him in a different way.
Carry on and don't waste my time manipulating my words.
Oh, I'd say he was certainly the best at points in his career. '13 being one of the more obvious ones.
Same. Zetterberg should have been alongside Datsyuk, same year.
Arthur Morgan
Registered User
Shea Weber is hall of very good. Shocked he made it.
Weber had a very above average career. Nothing exciting. No hardware, no cup. He did smash Zetterberg’s head in frustration for being a better player than him though. Maybe that’s what happened here for the hall of fame.
Ducks in a row
Go Ducks Quack Quack
Shea Weber had great international success which included winning 2 Olympic Gold Medals. In the NHL he made two 1st All-Star Team and two 2nd All-Star Team. I am not surprised he made it in the Hockey Hall of Fame.
JianYang
Registered User
- Sep 29, 2017
- 19,096
- 18,153
Your Olympic hero Shea Weber. Also lost a couple norris by the tiniest of margins.
I don’t know if there was ever a consensus the way there was with say, Lidstrom for a long period, but it was definitely held by a number of people. I’m pretty sure he won a couple polls on here for defensemen rankings as well
JianYang
Registered User
- Sep 29, 2017
- 19,096
- 18,153
I heard somewhere that he was just a few votes shy.
It tells me that he's still on the radar, and I think it really just a matter of time.
JianYang
Registered User
- Sep 29, 2017
- 19,096
- 18,153
His perception is not helped by the fact he was part of a newish franchise that didn't have much of a spotlight. Actually, they had the spotlight for other reasons such as their ownership situation, and for the most part, his tenure in Nashville coincided with a team that was known for defense and a pop gun offense.... not quite the type team that would grab alot of recognition.
But there was a reason that whenever team Canada needed a guy in that era for their best on best tournaments that Shea Weber was a virtual lock to be there. No doubt he's a Hall of famer.
Weztex
Registered User
- Feb 6, 2006
- 3,130
- 3,805
What kind of reasoning is that? A player is either HoF worthy or he's not. What's even the point of purposely making someone wait? Saying ''Look champ, you were good but just so you know, there are better player than you in here. So be grateful and keep your head down''?
Being first ballot is not a special honor bestowed by the HoF. It doesn't mean jack.
Duffy13
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ ┻━┻
Chances JR runs his mouth about wanting to boink Kathryn Tappin and cuck Jay Leech in his induction speech again?
Reality Czech
Registered User
- Apr 17, 2017
- 5,550
- 9,023
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
Some people say things most people (men) just think...
*DitchMarner is now blacklisted from consideration for the HFB Hall of Fame for like 15 years.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 29
- 56
So on November 11, or 11/11, Datsyuk will become the 11th '02 Red Wing to enter the Hall (if you include the entire team bench and therefore also Bowman).
And if you include the front office of the ´02 Wings there are three more in the Hall (Holland, Devellano and Illitch). So that makes it 14 ´02 Wings now in the Hall of Fame. Does that beat any of the 70s Canadiens teams?
And if you include the front office of the ´02 Wings there are three more in the Hall (Holland, Devellano and Illitch). So that makes it 14 ´02 Wings now in the Hall of Fame. Does that beat any of the 70s Canadiens teams?
Others have already provided the arguments for the no-brainers Datsyuk and Weber. It feels weird not to include Datsyuk's teammate Zetterberg since there was one player spot left unused. But at the same time, this would have been the perfect year to induct Datsyuk's countryman Mogilny. Now Mogilny will probably have to wait for Putin to get out until he can get in. So, that begs the question... why Roenick over Mogilny?
Personally, I like to emphasize the playoffs and international best-on-best tournaments more than your average joe. I think they're important. It seems to me that you're supposed to win hockey games. Especially playoff games and tournament finals. And it seems like the players themselves feel that way. I have yet to witness a player who dreams of winning the President's Trophy over the Stanley Cup. This is why I prefer to look at the overall season totals (RS + playoffs) instead of just listing the regular season totals and using the playoffs as some king of a tie breaker. Here's how Roenick and Mogilny fare in this matchup NHL wise:
Jeremy Roenick: 1517.566+772=1338 (46th best all-time)
With Roenick, what immediately stands out is his consistent prime production. He finished top 50 in total points 14 times within a 15-season span between 1989 and 2004 (albeit just barely in a few of those seasons). His best positions on the season total charts were as follows:
Total goals 3-11-12.5-15.5-19-30.5 (next best: 33rd in a year he scored just 64 points in 85 games)
Total assists 15.5-21-23-23.5-24.5-26 (next best: 37.5)
Total points 4-6.5-16-20-23.5-29-35-40.5 (next best: a bunch of seasons in the 40-50 range)
Clearly, Roenick's main claim to (hockey hall of) fame is finishing 3rd in total goals and 4th in total points in 1991-92. The players ahead of him in points? Mario Lemieux, Mario's linemate Kevin Stevens, and Wayne Gretzky. We might also mention the Hart Trophy winner Mark Messier, who finished 5th with a slightly better point/game average than Roenick. Brett Hull also deserves a mention with his ridiculous 74 goals in 79 games. Roenick came 5th in the regular season -based Hart voting before helping the Blackhawks make it to the Stanley Cup finals in a key role. They eventually got swept by the Lemieux-led Penguins, but all the scores were very even. By all accounts this is a magnificent season for the mere mortals not named Lemieux/Gretzky.
Alexander Mogilny: 1114.512+606=1118 (91st best all-time)
Mogilny's production on the other hand is all over the place. And a part of it is due to injuries. Even ignoring his rookie year, there are 3 seasons between 1997 and 2000 when he not only fails to make the top 65 in points, but places tied 90th, tied 109th and tied 125th. But the peak is impressive:
Total goals 1-5-6.5-11.5-28.5-29.5-32.5 (next best: 38th = tied 35th-41st)
Total assists 23.5-27.5-28-35.5 (next best: 43rd = tied 41st-45th)
Total points 9-9-10-14-27.5-31.5-37-39 (next best: 41.5 = tied 41st-42nd; then 63)
Mogilny's main claim to (hockey hall of) fame is leading the entire league in total goals with a ridiculous 83 in 1992-93. What makes it less impressive than Hull's previous season however is the fact that Hull led his team in scoring by *43* points (Adam Oates was traded to Boston that spring, but even he was way behind Hull at that time). Mogilny on the other hand finished second on his team in points behind Pat LaFontaine, who was at the peak of his powers. Nonetheless, this is a legit Rocket Richard Trophy for me. Mogilny deserves it ahead of Selänne.
So, if we emphasize top 10 finishes, then Mogilny is ahead. But beyond their best 4 seasons, Roenick is easily better. And I would argue that his 91-92 season is at least on par with Mogilny's 92-93 (when Mogilny received zero Hart votes while linemate LaFontaine placed third). Plus his 93-94 season (tied 6th in total points) matches any other Mogilny season. And Mogilny was all about offense. I think both players are ultimately HHOF worthy, but I don't see a huge injustice here.
Personally, I like to emphasize the playoffs and international best-on-best tournaments more than your average joe. I think they're important. It seems to me that you're supposed to win hockey games. Especially playoff games and tournament finals. And it seems like the players themselves feel that way. I have yet to witness a player who dreams of winning the President's Trophy over the Stanley Cup. This is why I prefer to look at the overall season totals (RS + playoffs) instead of just listing the regular season totals and using the playoffs as some king of a tie breaker. Here's how Roenick and Mogilny fare in this matchup NHL wise:
Jeremy Roenick: 1517.566+772=1338 (46th best all-time)
With Roenick, what immediately stands out is his consistent prime production. He finished top 50 in total points 14 times within a 15-season span between 1989 and 2004 (albeit just barely in a few of those seasons). His best positions on the season total charts were as follows:
Total goals 3-11-12.5-15.5-19-30.5 (next best: 33rd in a year he scored just 64 points in 85 games)
Total assists 15.5-21-23-23.5-24.5-26 (next best: 37.5)
Total points 4-6.5-16-20-23.5-29-35-40.5 (next best: a bunch of seasons in the 40-50 range)
Clearly, Roenick's main claim to (hockey hall of) fame is finishing 3rd in total goals and 4th in total points in 1991-92. The players ahead of him in points? Mario Lemieux, Mario's linemate Kevin Stevens, and Wayne Gretzky. We might also mention the Hart Trophy winner Mark Messier, who finished 5th with a slightly better point/game average than Roenick. Brett Hull also deserves a mention with his ridiculous 74 goals in 79 games. Roenick came 5th in the regular season -based Hart voting before helping the Blackhawks make it to the Stanley Cup finals in a key role. They eventually got swept by the Lemieux-led Penguins, but all the scores were very even. By all accounts this is a magnificent season for the mere mortals not named Lemieux/Gretzky.
Alexander Mogilny: 1114.512+606=1118 (91st best all-time)
Mogilny's production on the other hand is all over the place. And a part of it is due to injuries. Even ignoring his rookie year, there are 3 seasons between 1997 and 2000 when he not only fails to make the top 65 in points, but places tied 90th, tied 109th and tied 125th. But the peak is impressive:
Total goals 1-5-6.5-11.5-28.5-29.5-32.5 (next best: 38th = tied 35th-41st)
Total assists 23.5-27.5-28-35.5 (next best: 43rd = tied 41st-45th)
Total points 9-9-10-14-27.5-31.5-37-39 (next best: 41.5 = tied 41st-42nd; then 63)
Mogilny's main claim to (hockey hall of) fame is leading the entire league in total goals with a ridiculous 83 in 1992-93. What makes it less impressive than Hull's previous season however is the fact that Hull led his team in scoring by *43* points (Adam Oates was traded to Boston that spring, but even he was way behind Hull at that time). Mogilny on the other hand finished second on his team in points behind Pat LaFontaine, who was at the peak of his powers. Nonetheless, this is a legit Rocket Richard Trophy for me. Mogilny deserves it ahead of Selänne.
So, if we emphasize top 10 finishes, then Mogilny is ahead. But beyond their best 4 seasons, Roenick is easily better. And I would argue that his 91-92 season is at least on par with Mogilny's 92-93 (when Mogilny received zero Hart votes while linemate LaFontaine placed third). Plus his 93-94 season (tied 6th in total points) matches any other Mogilny season. And Mogilny was all about offense. I think both players are ultimately HHOF worthy, but I don't see a huge injustice here.
