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Jere Lehtinen vs. Esa Tikkanen | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League
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Jere Lehtinen vs. Esa Tikkanen

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Plural

Registered User
Inspired by the Kimmo Timonen thread.

Which one of these two takes the higher spot in your all-time rankings? Use any criteria you want to.

Jere Lehtinen

Dallas+Stars+v+New+Jersey+Devils+YbxJ6djqV_kl.jpg


Three time Selke winner, 6 times in the top-3. Almost flawless when on the ice. Great example for the younger players on the team on how to give 100% every single shift.

243+271=514 875GP

Esa Tikkanen

front.jpg


Four times in the top-3 Selke voting. One of the most annoying players ever. Played with an edge and attitude. Could get the opposing players mad enough for them to lose composure. Pest.

Bonus: Invented his own language.

244+386=630 877GP (Note: played in higher scoring league than Lehtinen.)


For mods, if it suits the purpose of this sub-forum, feel free to add a poll.
Click to read more...
 
I liked the Anderson vs. Bellows thread comparison, but in this one I honestly cannot see a justification for taking Lehtinen. Tikkanen all the way. Having said that, I am not an expert on Lehtinen and only saw him play sporadically, so I'm open to further opinions, but based on my memory and a quick look at his stats I can't see him outranking Tikkanen.

Tikkanen started his NHL career in the Stanley Cup Finals, playing on the greatest line in history. Not many young guys could do that. (When Gretzky departed Edmonton, Tikkanen saw his stats improve.)

In the playoffs is where Tikkanen really separates himself. Nothing against Lehtinen, who of course didn't play for a dynasty, but he has 1 playoff game-winning goal in his career. Tikkanen once scored two playoff overtime goals in the same series (with NYR in 1997). Tikkanen has 72 career playoff goals, which is comparable to Jagr, Trottier, and Yzerman. There were times, albeit briefly, where Tikkanen was outperforming players like Mark Messier in the course of a playoff series.

I'd like to hear more about Lehtinen, but I can't see this going his way.
 
For the record...

Theokritos said:
Talking of highly respected Finnish players who aren't in the Hall (and will never be, in all likeliness): I can think of one from the same generation (two years older than Timonen) I'd have an easier time making an argument for than Timonen.
Click to expand...

vadim sharifijanov said:
^ koivu?

greatest finnish player outside the HHOF: tikkanen? or if we are talking peak, kiprusoff? or for longevity, numminen?

EDIT: oh wait, you mean lehtinen right?
Click to expand...

...yes, I mean Lehtinen.
 
If we look at them in terms of the era they played in they are actually pretty equivalent offensive players (outside of Tikkanen's 1986-87 and 1988-89 seasons) though Tikkanen has the edge.

But defensively Lehtinen was better.

Regular season alone I think you could make a good argument for Lehtinen... but when playoffs come into it Tikkanen gets a serious boost.
 
Appleyard said:
But defensively Lehtinen was better.
Click to expand...

That's possible, but Lehtinen also played within a tighter system. Tikkanen played in a more free roaming environment, and I think he definitely was a better shadow. He famously shadowed Gretzky, and he also shadowed Bure in the 93–94 SCF. Even though Bure had 8 points in 7 games he only scored goals in two of them [3 totals] and looked a bit off his game for parts of the series, much due to Tikkanen I think.
 
The Panther said:
I liked the Anderson vs. Bellows thread comparison, but in this one I honestly cannot see a justification for taking Lehtinen.
Click to expand...
You are aware that he has three Selkes to Tikkanen's zero? It's not hard to find a justification. How many other players have three Selkes?
 
defensively, i think you have to give the nod to lehtinen. it's closer than 3 > 0, but his finishes are 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, vs. tik's 2, 2, 2, 3. which is excellent too, but not at lehtinen's level. fwiw, both guys outshone guy carbonneau when they were his teammate. lehts we all remember taking the reins in dallas. but what we forget is that tik finished second in selke voting to ron francis (probably should have won tbh) during the lockout season. both he and carbo were briefly stationed in st. louis that year.

overall, i go with tikkanen without thinking about it much. lehtinen had the defensive acumen to be gainey and hitchcock's top defensive forward on a team with carbo, modano, skrudland, keaner, and others. which is beyond impressive. but could a team contend with lehtinen as your best skater, or best forward?

after gretzky left, tikkanen took on a huge load on the kurri line. he became the second best defensive forward in the league, almost certainly the best one on one shadow, while being also a top offensive threat after messier/simpson. my memory is in the 1990 playoffs, just as simpson eclipsed anderson as the go-to guy on his line, tik eclipsed kurri. then in 1991, he was the man on that team up front. on a defending cup champ that was older and tired, with an especially gassed and injury-nagged messier and no kurri, and simpson hobbled, and the "kids" not really stepping up, tikkanen put up a '08 zetterberg performance. i most remember '92 when they beat the canucks, with the new blood of nicholls, murphy, and damphousse stepping up to fill the offensive hole left by all the boys on the bus except kevin lowe now being gone, tik was still that team's everything (though ranford deserves a shoutout too; he was money from '90 to '92).

a team led by messier with tik as arguably its second in command can win a cup, which is in itself enough to give tik the nod here. but a team with tikkanen as its alpha dog, even with everyone else at less than full strength, can still make it to the final four. i think we sometimes forget that last part.
 
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Appleyard said:
If we look at them in terms of the era they played in they are actually pretty equivalent offensive players (outside of Tikkanen's 1986-87 and 1988-89 seasons) though Tikkanen has the edge.

But defensively Lehtinen was better.

Regular season alone I think you could make a good argument for Lehtinen... but when playoffs come into it Tikkanen gets a serious boost.
Click to expand...

I don't think defensively Lehtinen was better. Also Tik might be the best player ever at defending Wayne Gretzky. One time even shadowing him at breakfast...

Sure Lehtinen has several Selke's and that's awesome for him... But that doesn't mean he was better then Tikannen defensively. Voters for that trophy change their voting strategies en masse all the time. It is literally a bipolar award. We know who are the top defensive forwards over their careers if you watch and listen and pay attention. Tikkanen was for sure among the best of them his whole career. I value him higher because he was so great covering Gretzky and just a monster player after the Gretzky trade.... Better the Anderson, right up there with, and sometimes better then Kurri and Messier. He put teams on his back and led them deep into the playoffs. Scoring, checking, drawing penalties and just frustrating the heck out of whole teams. Best agitator and pest. In my opinion the very best LW in the world for several years 1987-1992ish. Yeah I know there were better scorers... The whole package though.... To help you win games, cups, playoff series... For 3,4 maybe 5 years it is Tikkanen. Over Robitaille and Kevin Stevens... Over every other LW I would have taken him.

That is why I would put him in the HHOF. Without huge counting stats the critera the biggest criteria for the Hall is "were you the best at your position in the league? The best at any important skill or role?"

To me Tik was the best LW in the world for several seasons, probably the most effective pest, agitator of all time, and probably the best shadow of elite players of his era. As mentioned here, and not just by me, of Bure in the final, Gretzky on the Kings.

Gainey is in because he was the best power winger defensively, Neely the best power forward at scoring, Bure for scoring and skating at high speeds. If they get in for their special unique skills with either short careers or Gainey a limited scoring ability... I would put in Tik and Carboneau. They won, they were important, they were memorable. And even after their peaks they were still great effective checkers. Plus Tik's playoff resume is elite. So many important plays at the biggest moments and there he does have the counting stats, big numbers to impress voters when his regular season career numbers are not that great for a HHOFer.
 
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Sens Rule said:
I don't think defensively Lehtinen was better. Also Tik might be the best player ever at defending Wayne Gretzky. One time even shadowing him at breakfast...

Sure Lehtinen has several Selke's and that's awesome for him... But that doesn't mean he was better then Tikannen defensively. Voters for that trophy change their voting strategies en masse all the time. It is literally a bipolar award. We know who are the top defensive forwards over their careers if you watch and listen and pay attention. Tikkanen was for sure among the best of them his whole career. I value him higher because he was so great covering Gretzky and just a monster player after the Gretzky trade.... Better the Anderson, right up there with, and sometimes better then Kurri and Messier. He put teams on his back and led them deep into the playoffs. Scoring, checking, drawing penalties and just frustrating the heck out of whole teams. Best agitator and pest. In my opinion the very best LW in the world for several years 1987-1992ish. Yeah I know there were better scorers... The whole package though.... To help you win games, cups, playoff series... For 3,4 maybe 5 years it is Tikkanen. Over Robitaille and Kevin Stevens... Over every other LW I would have taken him.

That is why I would put him in the HHOF. Without huge counting stats the critera the biggest criteria for the Hall is "were you the best at your position in the league? The best at any important skill or role?"

To me Tik was the best LW in the world for several seasons, probably the most effective pest, agitator of all time, and probably the best shadow of elite players of his era. As mentioned here, and not just by me, of Bure in the final, Gretzky on the Kings.

Gainey is in because he was the best power winger defensively, Neely the best power forward at scoring, Bure for scoring and skating at high speeds. If they get in for their special unique skills with either short careers or Gainey a limited scoring ability... I would put in Tik and Carboneau. They won, they were important, they were memorable. And even after their peaks they were still great effective checkers. Plus Tik's playoff resume is elite. So many important plays at the biggest moments and there he does have the counting stats, big numbers to impress voters when his regular season career numbers are not that great for a HHOFer.
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i agree with everything except the "best LW in the game for a real stretch --> HHOF" part. because i'd sooner burn down the HHOF than induct markus naslund.
 
Great question. I disagree with all the posts slanting hard one way or the other. I do think Tikky's '87-88 and 89-90 were better than Lehtinen's 98-99, but I think Jere has a slightly longer window as a great defender with good offensive upside.

Crazy to think he was dealt to the Devils late in 96, only to miss the playoffs. I think he really could have helped that St. Louis team that got knocked out in 7 by the Wings. Game 7 double OT... I'd be surprised if the series even went that far if you put Tikkanen into that Blues line-up. Just had a knack for scoring big goals. He had a great playoffs the next year as a Ranger (different type of "shadowing" Gretz, just following him around as a team mate).

Esa's a really unique player historically. The Dallas teams Lehtinen played on were tailor made for his style, which isn't a knock, but Carboneau, Keane, Sydor, Zubov, Matvichuk, Hatcher... I could go on. Makes it "easy".

I have an 80's Oilers jersey hanging in the closet. #17... it's a Kurri sweater, but I'd happily trade it for a Tikkanen one. Maybe just for a change of pace type thing, but I think on certain nights, you'd rather be lining up next to a weird looking guy who's literally frothing at the mouth in tongues. can you say rattled?
 
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I watched and appreciated both throughout their careers.

Lehtinen I thought deserved the Selke when he was a finalist and Peca won it, attributing his loss to possible prejudice among voters (though I'm a HUGE Peca fan, Lehtinen was the NHL's unheralded-then great defensive player).

Then Lehtinen won the next two Selkes and three overall and I was happy as a clam (Peca won another as well).

The Grate One deserved a Selke but 'Tiki' was more of an agitator (think a superior Marchand, Gallagher, Ott). Tikkanen and Messier were amazingly effective at gooning opposing forwards when the refs weren't looking. I went to several games in the eighties in which they each took cheapshots when the refs weren't looking, causing an uproar in the stands.

Tikkanen is a role-playing top-6 role all-time great with clutch-scoring potential (he really changes gears when the game is on the line - he's like Geoff Courtnall on steroids then) who perhaps has the skill level of a third liner (he has nothing over Ricci in the skill dep't).

Lehtinen had 37 game-winning goals in Dallas but isn't remembered for his clutch scoring as much as for his consistent defensive play. He was a less flashy Carbonneau. He was a work of art. Shift after shift he impressed. I recall when Hossa was in Ottawa and was my fav player I'd try to compare Lehtinen to Hossa in terms of who would be first to make a bad decision, pass or play. They were both so consistently awesome.

Both Lehtinen and Tikkanen are all-time great role players. Of that I think we can agree.
 
I would give Lehtinen the edge defensively. He was pretty flawless there. He did all the little things right. He made hockey hard for his opponents, and easier for his mates.

Tikkanen to me was more of a threat. I watched him quite a bit in his heyday and that guy could really turn it on. Likely the more talented of the two. Could take matters in to his own hands offensively. Lehtinen was good offensively though.

Hard for me to really truly pick one here. I may be a little bias being a Stars fan. Would kind of lean towards Tikkanen though I think. Maybe out of fear of sounding biased, I don't know. I think ol Fish Face was just a little more talented and likely to win games for you on the offensive side of things.

Tough choice for me.
 
Tik for me. It has to be. This is no disrespect to Lehtinen but there was a different dimension for Tikkanen. He was almost like a man possessed in the postseason. He scared you a bit. Throw in the ability to be a complete pest out there - and I don't mean the Sean Avery style pest - I mean a pest that was effective within the context of the game. This was Tik in a nutshell. He scored 72 playoff goals so you know he was there when it counted.

I know a lot of Canadians would easily consider him to be an honourary Canadian just based on his playing style alone.
 
Tikkanen. One of the best pests in the history of the game and he could play too.

Lehtinen was great too though.
 
They were both superb, and it's closer than people think. Lehtinen had this Lidstrom-like flawlessness to his game, but Tikkanen was a man possessed in playoffs. So, being a playoffs first guy, I have to give it to Esa.
 
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