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OT: Generational Players

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Anardil said:
I really dislike the argument that past great players wouldn't succeed in today's game. I believe that great players would be great players regardless of the era that they play in.

You say McDavid gets 200 points in Mario's day? Well I reply by saying Gretz and Mario would break records today, with the advances in equipment technology, nutrition, scientific knowledge and especially the way the game is played/called today.

Imagine Mario without having players waterskiing him, crosschecking etc. He would break a 100 goal season.

Bottom line is that any great player in any generation would succeed regardless of the era. IMHO.
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Gretzky and Mario would score far less, that is an indisputable fact. The fact that you are implying that it was harder to score in the Eighties and early 90's is laughable and entirely refuted by the facts.

Gretzky, Orr and Mario were great players and would be in any generation but McDavid is absolutely on par with them imo. I watched Wayne and Mario's entire careers including before they were drafted and their stats were inflated by playing in a watered down league with terrible goalies and poor defensive systems. Perhaps you should take a look at the rest of the scoring leaders and the top goalies stats lol. You are simply arguing solely from bias and have zero evidence to support your claim.

Gretzky would struggle the most out of the three that I mentioned as he did not have the speed or physicality that the others brought. Gretzky took advantage of absurdly poor competition and was in the right place at the right time. He would still be a great player but if you think Gretzky would be anywhere remotely close to 200 points in today's NHL you are putting forth a delusional narrative.
 
Estimated_Prophet said:
Gretzky and Mario would score far less, that is an indisputable fact. The fact that you are implying that it was harder to score in the Eighties and early 90's is laughable and entirely refuted by the facts.

Gretzky, Orr and Mario were great players and would be in any generation but McDavid is absolutely on par with them imo. I watched Wayne and Mario's entire careers including before they were drafted and their stats were inflated by playing in a watered down league with terrible goalies and poor defensive systems. Perhaps you should take a look at the rest of the scoring leaders and the top goalies stats lol. You are simply arguing solely from bias and have zero evidence to support your claim.

Gretzky would struggle the most out of the three that I mentioned as he did not have the speed or physicality that the others brought. Gretzky took advantage of absurdly poor competition and was in the right place at the right time. He would still be a great player but if you think Gretzky would be anywhere remotely close to 200 points in today's NHL you are putting forth a delusional narrative.
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Gretzky would be bigger (more muscular) and probably faster with today's training regiments.

It's just so hard for me to know what Gretzky would be or do in today's game.

But the fact that he was so egregiously able to take advantage of the short comings of his era, when no one else could to the extent that he did, says a lot.

Would be interesting to see what prime Gretzky could do with modern training, one piece sticks, advanced technology of skates, etc... Could Ovechkin score all the goals he has with those shitty Titan wood sticks Gretzky used, even as bad as the goaltending pre-Roy butterfly was? Probably. But Ovi wouldn't have even been in the NHL because he was Russian, to your point about competition...
 
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26Mats said:
Gretzky would be bigger (more muscular) and probably faster with today's training regiments.

It's just so hard for me to know what Gretzky would be or do in today's game.

But the fact that he was so egregiously able to take advantage of the short comings of his era, when no one else could to the extent that he did, says a lot.

Would be interesting to see what prime Gretzky could do with modern training, one piece sticks, advanced technology of skates, etc... Could Ovechkin score all the goals he has with those shitty Titan wood sticks Gretzky used, even as bad as the goaltending pre-Roy butterfly was? Probably. But Ovi wouldn't have even been in the NHL because he was Russian, to your point about competition...
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Many good points although I would suggest that Gretzky would still have the same relative speed, strength disadvantage as he wouldn't gain on anyone as opposed to simply progressing on the same curve as his contemporaries. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Lemieux would be superior to Gretzky in today's game.

I generally prefer to avoid these post modern discussions as there isn't much point to them but there were such bad arguments being made here that I had to try and intervene lol.
 
Toene said:
It's on topic since we're discussing the meaning of the generational label and what a generation is and represents.

I dont want to get technical and invoke the boring forum etiquette mumbo-jumbo that nobody cares about, but that discussion is officially legit because it is directly related to the fact that Demidov is the best hockey player in the history of humanity. I request full immunity.
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Bedard being the one recent player pre-draft being called generational made me use him as a yardstick to evaluate elite young players. He’s still in all the high profile commercials and marketing campaigns.

But the fact he’s about 100th in goal scoring right now is skewing my evaluations.

So I’ll fall back on the other recent reference point McDavid. and will reevaluate Celebrini and all the others in comparison.
 
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26Mats said:
Gretzky would be bigger (more muscular) and probably faster with today's training regiments.

It's just so hard for me to know what Gretzky would be or do in today's game.

But the fact that he was so egregiously able to take advantage of the short comings of his era, when no one else could to the extent that he did, says a lot.

Would be interesting to see what prime Gretzky could do with modern training, one piece sticks, advanced technology of skates, etc... Could Ovechkin score all the goals he has with those shitty Titan wood sticks Gretzky used, even as bad as the goaltending pre-Roy butterfly was? Probably. But Ovi wouldn't have even been in the NHL because he was Russian, to your point about competition...
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When people say this old player from the 80ies and early 90ies would have struggled to do 40 points in today's hockey i always respond with this. Jagr did 27 goals and 66 points in 2015-2016 as a 43 years old player. I've seen him play in his prime and at 43 he was half the player he used to be. He was slow. His shot was weak. It was honestly sad to watch for someone who saw him in his prime. Prime Jagr would have doubled those numbers very easily.
 
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Bombshell11 said:
Yeah personally, it feels like the LNH is trying to troll the whole world into making everyone believe Bedard is something special.

I dont get how the marketing and commercial deals work but it seems like all these ads and media spots were ordered and commissioned years in advance.

It speaks volume about the LNH’s competence and intentions.

Its like a dumb person trying to be malicious. It doesnt work. They’re getting exposed and its fun to watch. Imo.


As for Demi

I do think he’ll do better than McDavid did in his rookie year but im not sure he’s got the guys around him to help him produce at the 150 pts range eventually but hes got the potential for sure.

Its a no brainer, he’s a generational player
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The NHL did nothing. Bedard's junior numbers are generational.

10th all time for ppg in the whl
1st for ppg among players born after 1970 in the whl
15th all time for ppg at the u20
4th for ppg among players born after 1990 at the u20
4th all time for ppg in a single u20 tournament
 
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LaP said:
The NHL did nothing. Bedard's junior numbers are generational.

10th all time for ppg in the whl
1st for ppg among players born after 1970 in the whl
15th all time for ppg at the u20
4th for ppg among players born after 1990 at the u20
4th all time for ppg in a single u20 tournament
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Lockdown era,means nothing, shane wright had special status like mcdavid and is a nothing burger in the nhl.
 
the valiant effort said:
Broken Mario paced for 145 pts in 2001 and 111 pts in 2003 but yeah he’d be in tough today against Alex Kerfoot, Ethan Bear, and Cayden Primeau
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Did you see Ovi at the Gretz museum(?) in Edmonton yesterday before the game? When asked about the great ones wooden twig he’s like I don’t know how he could use that thing. lol, it’s like me looking at my grandfathers persimmon wood golf clubs.

Sorry off topic…..go Demidov go
 
Toene said:
It's on topic since we're discussing the meaning of the generational label and what a generation is and represents.

I dont want to get technical and invoke the boring forum etiquette mumbo-jumbo that nobody cares about, but that discussion is officially legit because it is directly related to the fact that Demidov is the best hockey player in the history of humanity. I request full immunity.
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There should not be any discussion about what it is. It's so popular in 2025 to redefine words this is crazy. It's like kids these days they want to change the meaning of everything.

Generational refer to a generation. So a generational player must be a player that define a generation. There can be more than one in a generation (Gretzky, Lemieux). But there can not be none in a generation. Obviously a 1920 generational player is not as good as today's player but that's the product of better training, better ice, better equipment, being able to not have a secondary job, better junior coaches, better knowledge of the game, better diet, working class having mroe money, not having to work at 12, ....
 
Estimated_Prophet said:
Gretzky and Mario would score far less, that is an indisputable fact. The fact that you are implying that it was harder to score in the Eighties and early 90's is laughable and entirely refuted by the facts.

Gretzky, Orr and Mario were great players and would be in any generation but McDavid is absolutely on par with them imo. I watched Wayne and Mario's entire careers including before they were drafted and their stats were inflated by playing in a watered down league with terrible goalies and poor defensive systems. Perhaps you should take a look at the rest of the scoring leaders and the top goalies stats lol. You are simply arguing solely from bias and have zero evidence to support your claim.

Gretzky would struggle the most out of the three that I mentioned as he did not have the speed or physicality that the others brought. Gretzky took advantage of absurdly poor competition and was in the right place at the right time. He would still be a great player but if you think Gretzky would be anywhere remotely close to 200 points in today's NHL you are putting forth a delusional narrative.
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Mario Lemieux would have more points today than he did back then. Look what he did as an old man after years off when they got rid of the obstruction rules.

The only way to stop Lemieux was to hold on to him for dear life. Yeah, McDavid would be super fast in the 80s but he doesn’t have to deal with obstruction the way those players did. It’s a completely different game and far more geared towards offense now.

Lemieux would be the all time scorer in today’s game. There’d simply be no way to stop him.
 
G! E! N! E! R! A! T! I! O! N! A! L! P! L! A! Y! E! R!

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the valiant effort said:
Broken Mario paced for 145 pts in 2001 and 111 pts in 2003 but yeah he’d be in tough today against Alex Kerfoot, Ethan Bear, and Cayden Primeau
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Exactly. Dude had been out of the game for like 5 years and was broken down and was immediately the best player in the league. He was signifcantly better than contemporaries like Jagr who put up 120+ points in 2006 as a 33 year old.

Yes, McDavid is fast. But one of the reasons he's fast is because the league doesn't allow players to hang off him like they used to with Mario Lemieux. Pacing for 145 after being out that long and having the injuries he did? And he was 35 years old...

He'd destroy the league.
 
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Bombshell11 said:
Lockdown era,means nothing, shane wright had special status like mcdavid and is a nothing burger in the nhl.
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It doesn't mean nothing. He was head and shoulders ahead of everyone. And he dominated after Covid. His numbers were off the chart good.

That doesn't mean it'll translate to the NHL. I haven't seen much of him so I can't render a strong opinion. But he's playing on the worst team in the league and is the NHL's second youngest player. Some people have kind of written him off a little bit and I think it's premature to believe that he can't establish himself among the greats. Everyone needs some support. Crosby and McDavid had much better support than Bedard has right now. He just might need a little more time to put up those crazy numbers.
 
McDavid - current generation
Crosby - previous generation
Ovechkin - generational goal scorer
Lemieux
Lidstrom - yes...I believe you can have multiple generational players at the same time **if** different positions
Hasek - see above
Roy
Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Harvey
Rocket
Morenz
Lalonde

These are my generational players. Some cross paths during their playing career, sometimes there is a big gap in players. We have been blessed to have 3 generational players currently playing. I realize I am heavy since the 80's but I don't know enough about others before that time.

Makar is creeping into consideration.

Who is the next generation? One or maybe two of......

Bedard
Celebrini
Demidov
Michkov
Schaefer
McKenna
Dupont

Time will tell. Someone from this list will take over from McDavid the 30's
 
It's really unfair to compare players from different eras. So many things have changed with time i.e. equipment, rules, systems, training methods, diets and so on...Naturally, the average player of today is better than 20-40 years ago, but you can't take away the accomplishments of the past greats. The game will always evolve.

It took players like Richard, Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux and among many more to inspire the next generation. They were the best in their era.
 
Gravity said:
We have 0 generational players on the team or pipeline. Accept the obvious truth.
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This is likely accurate. Hutson has an outside shot at it but it's very early. Hard to believe we hit with a generational talent with a late 2nd rounder. I'm assuming you think Makar is generational but what about Q Hughes? Yes or no? Hutson is not likely going to be on Markar's level.

Demidov? Too early to say. We need to see at least one season if not more.

Franchise talent? We might have a few of them.
 
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