Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

[ReHabs]

I wonder if Los Angeles had fans making these consternations when they traded a pittance to acquire PPG winger Kevin Fiala.

Oh so we're lying today. If you could read I clearly said the only scenarios it makes sense is a sign and trade.

Or... trade with a pre-agreed contract and then sign. Like Pacioretty with Vegas or Fiala with Los Angeles.

Those who oppose the concept of acquiring Dubois don't have any argument that stands on its own.

1. You don't want PLD because you don't like him
We cannot afford to not have a player like PLD because he would be our best or second best all-around forward. He's a player who fits the profile every team in the NHL would want and our team does not have.

2. You don't want PLD because his cap hit would be "too high"
If the GM thinks his cap hit is not acceptable then they won't sign him -- simple. No one here wants PLD at any cost, at any price. He isn't an elite player, just a very good and desirable one. A cap hit around Suzuki's is market price, more or less.

3. You don't want PLD because you don't want to trade assets
We are at or near our 50 contract limit and have plenty of B- and below prospects and need to trade quantity for quality anyway. PLD would be one of our best players so it isn't like we're too well-stocked in PLD-level players to turn our nose up at this one.

4. You don't want PLD before he's UFA
If PLD comes this summer, he will come with a long-term deal signed either at the time of the trade or immediately thereafter. He has publicly stated he wants a choice in where he plays and UFA is clearly the best way to have those options. If he joins the Habs he will have eschewed free agency because he will have chosen to join the Habs -- satisfying him and the Habs both.

 

[Jack Skellington]

I wonder if Los Angeles had fans making these consternations when they traded a pittance to acquire PPG winger Kevin Fiala.


Or... trade with a pre-agreed contract and then sign. Like Pacioretty with Vegas or Fiala with Los Angeles.

Those who oppose the concept of acquiring Dubois don't have any argument that stands on its own.

That's the same thing

 

[ReHabs]

That's the same thing

There is no explanation. In fact, by offering up major assets to trade for an unsigned player, you actually LOSE leverage in negotiations because the player knows you absolutely have to sign them now. They can basically ask demand their number and the GM is forced to pay it. Example: Josh Anderson, Jonathan Drouin. The only way trading for PLD makes any sense whatsoever is if it’s a sign and trade. Either he wants to exclusively play for MTL or he doesn’t. If we’re just on his shortlist of teams that he would be somewhat interested in playing for, then why are we freaking out about him as if he’s the only option for us. He’s a good player but not an exceptional one.

Okay so to be on the same page: the Habs will only move major assets if a long-term deal is verbally or formally accepted. Trade & Sign, "Sign" & Trade, etc.

This implies: the Habs are happy with the price to acquire him, and are happy with the cap hit. Under no circumstance will the Habs acquire him and hope to sign him to a contract.

So what's the problem?

 

[BLONG7]

Is PLD wanting to play only in Montreal only, a fabrication of a certain media guy in Montreal?
Obviously if the money is right, he will go almost anywhere, just not the Peg, and Columbus! LOL

 

[BaseballCoach]

Oh so we're lying today. If you could read I clearly said the only scenarios it makes sense is a sign and trade.

OK. Sure I say that too. But the context might be different.

Did you say that as a proponent of the trade but allaying the fear of anyone delusional enough to think a roll-the-dice trade is going to happen?

Or do you basically oppose the trade and throw this out there as the only thing that makes sense but will not happen because you agree with those loud and persistent folks who believe PLD is an entitled, greedy, lazy, limited-talent, and/or team-abandoning cancer who is just using the Habs to up his UFA value like Lapointe, Briere, etc. - and if signed will likely turn into the next Drouin or Desharnais?

 

[salbutera]

Is PLD wanting to play only in Montreal only, a fabrication of a certain media guy in Montreal?
Obviously if the money is right, he will go almost anywhere, just not the Peg, and Columbus! LOL

Jets beat writer Murat Ates had an article in The Athletic saying:

I can’t say this with certainty but I don’t think cash is going to be the main sticking point for Pierre-Luc Dubois. I think the decision he makes this summer (and next) will be about his lifestyle on and off the ice. He strikes me as a thoughtful, intelligent person who values the life he gets to live away from the rink, too. This includes family time, offseason adventures, restaurants, fashion and more.

I tend to think that Montreal — rumoured to be his ideal home — and other Eastern metropolises like New York are front-runners for his long-term services. I suppose Los Angeles fits some of the priorities I’ve guessed at, although it would be farther from home.

 

[McPhees Moustache]

Seriously?

I will write slowly and in Capital letters for you.

B E C A U S E
I F
Y O U
D O
N O T
L I K E
H I S
C O N T R A C T
D E M A N D S,
Y O U
D O N ' T
A C Q U I R E
H I M.

A little passive aggressive?
I was responding to someone who said that if we acquired him he would sign for less money than he otherwise would have because we showed we wanted him in our team. Maybe you should be sure you’re reading properly before spelling things out!

 

[ReHabs]

Is PLD wanting to play only in Montreal only, a fabrication of a certain media guy in Montreal?
Obviously if the money is right, he will go almost anywhere, just not the Peg, and Columbus! LOL

He does not only want Montreal but unlike 90% of NHL players he has publicly indicated he would want to play in Montreal if he were free to do so. Which is significant.

 

[HABitual Fan]

He does not only want Montreal but unlike 90% of NHL players he has publicly indicated he would want to play in Montreal if he were free to do so. Which is significant.

Link to where HE says all of that publically please

 

[ReHabs]

Link to where HE says all of that publically please

A quick google: Dubois: “He Would Love To Play In Montreal”

Now, Simon Gagné is adding to it. According to the former Flyers’ player, Dubois would love to play for the Canadiens.

“I was with him at the Pro-Am (Gagné-Bergeron) last summer and we were joking a bit about it”, said Gagné. “The feeling that I have is that he would love to come and play in Montreal one day. But of course, the business aspect comes into play… money, contract length… there are a lot of things to take into account.”

https://thehockeynews.com/news/pierre-luc-dubois-addresses-trade-rumors-but-his-future-in-winnipeg-remains-uncertain

Speculation linking Dubois to the Canadiens arose from a July 13 interview with TVA Sports by his agent Pat Brisson, in which he said his client had an interest in one day playing for the Habs. Dubois downplayed it, claiming the reaction to Brisson's remarks was overblown and taken out of context.

But there's a lot of smoke there, it isn't just out of nothing. Every insider has made the link between PLD and the Habs but given he isn't free at the moment, neither side can openly comment (hence Dubois' denial).

 

[Ozmodiar]

then why are we freaking out about him as if he’s the only option for us. He’s a good player but not an exceptional one.

Yeah, he’s not quite at the level where the thinking should be “figure it out and get it done” - just because he wants to play for you. The fit has to be right.

The Habs have a plan that includes some things like:
- do they like Dach at center (PLD would be a winger)?
- will they bring youth (Slaf, 5OA) along slowly on the 3rd line or would they prefer to place them in the top 6?
- is Anderson part of the LT plan?
- will they be patient with young D or is this where’d they’d rather spend assets and Cap?
- are they looking at a RD in the draft?
- will they be content with another top 10 pick next year or is it time to start ramping towards playoffs?

PLD would certainly give the forward group a jolt, but I also see a blueprint where they’d rather upgrade the D.

Slaf - NS - caufield
Anderson - Dach - 5OA

Matheson - xxxxx
Guhle - Savard
Xhekaj - Barron/JK

 

[Sterling Archer]

Let’s get her done!

View attachment 708827

Get. It. Done!!

 

[HABitual Fan]

A quick google: Dubois: “He Would Love To Play In Montreal”

https://thehockeynews.com/news/pierre-luc-dubois-addresses-trade-rumors-but-his-future-in-winnipeg-remains-uncertain

But there's a lot of smoke there, it isn't just out of nothing. Every insider has made the link between PLD and the Habs but given he isn't free at the moment, neither side can openly comment (hence Dubois' denial).

So in other words PLD has not publicly said any of that as you implied!

A bit naive to think a player and his agent looking for a UFA contract in a year from now refusing to dismiss a potential suitor outright is an indication of anything.

Before you jump to conclusions, I know he is interested from his own mouth, but to what extent and what his priorities are when it gets to that stage are very much up in the air.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Having a top of comprised of:
Slaf Suzuki Caufield
Michkov PLD Dach
is sexy AF and a true top 6 that could comete with any team in the league. Size, skill, game breaking ability and speed. What's not to like!?

 

[Deebs]

Let’s get her done!

View attachment 708827

Harris, FLA 1st and another mid level tasty treat just to close it out. He needs to sign a 8x8ish deal to go along with it of course.

 

[CHwest]

I don’t like Therrien but I disagree with the bold. If Therrien was enough to derail a career, there wasn’t much spine to begin with.

Can you really expect someone to go through the rough patchs with no spine?

You are forgetting that these are boys, not everyone is equipped to deal with jack asses at a young age.

 

[BaseballCoach]

A little passive aggressive?
I was responding to someone who said that if we acquired him he would sign for less money than he otherwise would have because we showed we wanted him in our team. Maybe you should be sure you’re reading properly before spelling things out!

I do get that. The difference is that Hughes can negotiate directly with both PLD and Winnipeg before the waters are muddied by 31 other team being in the running.

I also note that several other posters had the same thought in reading your post, even if they made their points without using CAPS, lol.

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but there are so many other posts out there that display weak knowledge of the system,that I might have picked on yours unfairly.

 

[Sorinth]

Yeah, he’s not quite at the level where the thinking should be “figure it out and get it done” - just because he wants to play for you. The fit has to be right.

The Habs have a plan that includes some things like:
- do they like Dach at center (PLD would be a winger)?
- will they bring youth (Slaf, 5OA) along slowly on the 3rd line or would they prefer to place them in the top 6?
- is Anderson part of the LT plan?
- will they be patient with young D or is this where’d they’d rather spend assets and Cap?
- are they looking at a RD in the draft?
- will they be content with another top 10 pick next year or is it time to start ramping towards playoffs?

PLD would certainly give the forward group a jolt, but I also see a blueprint where they’d rather upgrade the D.

Slaf - NS - caufield
Anderson - Dach - 5OA

Matheson - xxxxx
Guhle - Savard
Xhekaj - Barron/JK

Capwise we can likely afford both Dubois and a 5-6m D so it's not an either or situation.

In terms of on ice fit yes we want to gauge how Dach and Dubois feel about playing wing but regardless of the answer it's not a deal breaker. You ideally want to roll a top-9 where every line is a threat to score. To help matters we have a bunch of middle six wingers so the difference between 2nd and 3rd line in terms of winger quality is going to be pretty similar.

The other things you bring up are mostly irrelevant, whether they want Slaf to play on the 2nd or 3rd line doesn't really factor into the Dubois decision because you can make the decision with or without Dubois in the lineup, outside of Caufield pretty much every other winger is interchangle in terms of which line they play on.

The important question about fit is the style of game and how it will mesh with the other core players. I'd say Dubois brings a much needed net front presence which is both important 5on5 and for the PP. He also really helps balance the size up front, having Dach, Dubois, Slafkovsky, Anderson in the top-9 is arguably the biggest group of forwards we've had in ages and we haven't even sacrificed skill to get bigger like in the past. Giving support to our big guys by not having them be alone in that regard is very important in getting the best out of them and in Slafkovksy case in particular it should really help his development.

So on-ice the fit is right. It's the off ice stuff like contract and trade cost that might be stumbling blocks. Dubois is a great fit but we aren't in a place where we want to overpay on either of those things.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Capwise we can likely afford both Dubois and a 5-6m D so it's not an either or situation.

What if you want the D to be the 8.5M player?

1st pairing, not 2nd.

The could find a 5M net-front presence guy elsewhere, like the oilers did with Hyman.

Anyway, good points you make there.

 

[Sorinth]

What if you want the D to be the 8.5M player?

1st pairing, not 2nd.

The could find a 5M net-front presence guy elsewhere, like the oilers did with Hyman.

Anyway, good points you make there.

In that case you buyout Gallagher and have enough money it's really not an issue.

 

[Ozmodiar]

In that case you buyout Gallagher and have enough money it's really not an issue.

True, true.

I should have added that to my list of questions.
- are they willing to buy out Gallagher?

 

[Jack Skellington]

OK. Sure I say that too. But the context might be different.

Did you say that as a proponent of the trade but allaying the fear of anyone delusional enough to think a roll-the-dice trade is going to happen?

Or do you basically oppose the trade and throw this out there as the only thing that makes sense but will not happen because you agree with those loud and persistent folks who believe PLD is an entitled, greedy, lazy, limited-talent, and/or team-abandoning cancer who is just using the Habs to up his UFA value like Lapointe, Briere, etc. - and if signed will likely turn into the next Drouin or Desharnais?

He's a good player. I like PLD. I want him to be on the Canadiens just like I want Timo Meier, Sidney Crosby, and Connor McDavid to be on the Canadiens. For me it all comes down to value. I would say your first option is closest to the truth as I truly believe Kent Hughes to be extremely intelligent and not someone who would ever hand away leverage. Same reason I'm not super worried about rumors we won't take Michkov if available. If the trade value was good enough to outweigh the risk of PLD getting some massive surprise UFA offer and being stolen away then I would do it. I think that's not very likely at all so I would lean towards waiting.

I personally don't care about where he's from or what his favourite team was growing up. For myself, PLD being "the guy" for us (example: having his own massive thread) begins and ends with him wanting exclusively to play for us, giving us bargaining power over all of the other teams. If he is willing to sign somewhere else because they offer 500k more than us or whatever it ends up being, he's simply a good, young top 6 forward that I would entertain acquiring, just like all the other good, young top 6 forwards.

 

[Jack Skellington]

Okay so to be on the same page: the Habs will only move major assets if a long-term deal is verbally or formally accepted. Trade & Sign, "Sign" & Trade, etc.

This implies: the Habs are happy with the price to acquire him, and are happy with the cap hit. Under no circumstance will the Habs acquire him and hope to sign him to a contract.

So what's the problem?

Nothing.

 

[nhlfan9191]

He's a good player. I like PLD. I want him to be on the Canadiens just like I want Timo Meier, Sidney Crosby, and Connor McDavid to be on the Canadiens. For me it all comes down to value. I would say your first option is closest to the truth as I truly believe Kent Hughes to be extremely intelligent and not someone who would ever hand away leverage. Same reason I'm not super worried about rumors we won't take Michkov if available. If the trade value was good enough to outweigh the risk of PLD getting some massive surprise UFA offer and being stolen away then I would do it. I think that's not very likely at all so I would lean towards waiting.

I personally don't care about where he's from or what his favourite team was growing up. For myself, PLD being "the guy" for us (example: having his own massive thread) begins and ends with him wanting exclusively to play for us, giving us bargaining power over all of the other teams. If he is willing to sign somewhere else because they offer 500k more than us or whatever it ends up being, he's simply a good, young top 6 forward that I would entertain acquiring, just like all the other good, young top 6 forwards.

He isn’t giving us bargaining power. This guy is going to either fleece us in negotiations or go somewhere else. I hope this saga ends soon. Let somebody else overpay for him financially, not even talking about the overpayment it’s going to take to get him 1 year early. The guys a fox.

 

[Adam Michaels]

2. You don't want PLD because his cap hit would be "too high"
If the GM thinks his cap hit is not acceptable then they won't sign him -- simple. No one here wants PLD at any cost, at any price. He isn't an elite player, just a very good and desirable one. A cap hit around Suzuki's is market price, more or less.

I think the bolded part is the part people need to remember for those in favor of acquiring PLD via trade. Nobody is saying he's worth any trade package or any contract.

But, out of his 6 seasons, he's had:
- 3 x 60+ point seasons.
- 4 x 20+ goal seasons, 3 of them at 27+ goals.
- 5 of his 6 seasons, he was in the playoffs for a total of 26 pts in 38 playoff games.

Habs don't have PLD types running around the organization.

He will turn 25 in June, Suzuki will turn 24 in August, Dach and Caufield will turn 23 in January. So PLD fits the age group of the core you're trying to build with. He's 6'2" and 205 lbs, so he adds size, as well as skill (like Dach). And like Dach, you have the advantage to use him both at center and the wing.

So having 4 of your Top-6 consisting of Suzuki, Caufield, Dach & PLD. And these guys aren't redundant. They all produce and have skill, but they each offer something the others don't. So it adds variety to your Top-6.

Then you look to see who can complete that Top-6. You do have options. You have Anderson. You have RHP, who last year showed he can be a complimentary piece there. You have Slaf that could take a step in his development to lock down a Top-6 spot. You also have the guy you take 5th who can join sooner than later.